Brave IDF caught on tape using human shield

Logic 7

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JERUSALEM (AP) -- The young Palestinian man was dressed in shorts and a T-shirt on a cold winter morning as he walked in front of heavily armed Israeli soldiers on a door-to-door sweep of three apartments in a crowded West Bank neighborhood.

The scene - caught by an Associated Press Television News camera - has raised questions about whether the Israeli army is still using Palestinian civilians during military operations, despite a Supreme Court order barring the practice.

Human rights groups call the tactic a violation of local and international law that places innocent civilians in the line of fire.

In its initial reaction to the footage, the Israel Defense Forces said there appeared to be no wrongdoing by its soldiers. In a statement, however, the army pledged it would "pursue a thorough inquiry" into the case.

The incident occurred Sunday in Nablus, where the army has been conducting broad arrest raids throughout the week. The army says most suicide bombings over the past year, including an attempted attack last week, have originated in the Nablus area.

..........


In August 2002, a 19-year-old Palestinian student, Nidal Daraghmeh, was killed in such an incident in the West Bank town of Tubas. At the time, troops called Daraghmeh out of his house and forced him to knock at the door of a neighboring building where a senior Hamas fugitive was hiding. Gunfire erupted and Daraghmeh was killed.

The Hamas fugitive later died in a shootout with soldiers.

After the AP footage of the Nablus incident was broadcast on Israeli TV earlier this week, B'Tselem, a leading human rights group, sent a letter to the army requesting an investigation.

"As you know, no doubt, the Supreme Court has prohibited any use of human shields in any possible form," the letter said, adding that it was the fourth time the rights group has complained to the army about the practice.

Jessica Montell, B'Tselem's executive director, said "the video raises serious concerns that the army is violating the high court judgment and forcing a Palestinian to ... illegally take part in the military's operations."

She added, however, that known violations have been rare since the 2005 court order.

While the army declined to comment on the video beyond its statement, a military official said the army has carefully obeyed the Supreme Court ruling and would launch a criminal investigation into suspected violations. The official, who was not allowed to be identified under military rules, said he had not seen the video.

Yaacov Amidror, a retired general who is a security specialist at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, said the use of civilians in arrest raids remains the best way to protect soldiers and innocent people.

"The procedure is the most moral and logical thing in the world," he said. The court's ban, he said, "seems liberal, but is in fact a bad decision for the residents of the house and for other civilians nearby."

Addressing the issue of Amira being taken to his own home by the soldiers, Sarit Michaeli, spokeswoman for B'Tselem, said the issue is "danger to the civilian," not which apartment he is sent to by soldiers, even his own.

---

Associated Press writer Ali Daraghmeh in Nablus contributed to this report.

© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://news.lycos.com/dynamic/stories/I/ISRAEL_NABLUS_RAID?SITE=LYCOS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT




Israel has the 2nd scariest army in the world, still IDF has to use human shield, chicken or brave?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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No military on either side would bother with this thread.

It's a thread authored by the comfortable.

So comfortable they can bravely judge the context of each situation.

In the comfort of home.

Arm chair Presidents, Prime Ministers, Emporers. . .tis a long list.
 

jimmoyer

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Apr 3, 2005
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Arm chair Presidents, Prime Ministers, Emporers. . .tis a long list.
------------------------------Tonington----------------------------------------

Not the same, Tonington.

That list you mentioned is in a separate group.

They are charged with the job of handling a first priority of US or THEM.

We authors of this thread have no such burden, no such responsibility.

Just the luxury of righteousness without context.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Aye, I know the list didn't include those mentioned in the OP, I was just picking up on what you said about judging from home, without the proper context. I'm guilty of that too, but I try my best not to say what a soldier should have done, that situation is 100% foreign to me.
 

Logic 7

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Jul 17, 2006
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No military on either side would bother with this thread.

It's a thread authored by the comfortable.

So comfortable they can bravely judge the context of each situation.

In the comfort of home.


Maybe it is something that you should have considered before supporting this war against iraq.:wave:
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Hmmm, the IDF use one Palestinian(that doesn't die) as a human shield and they're called criminals.

The Hezbollah use schools, hospitals, residential homes, apartments, etc. that inevitably get hundreds killed and their called freedom fighters.

That dog don't hunt!!!
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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The problem here, is you see one incident and act like therefore that is routine behaviour.

Allied soldiers in WWII were occassionally convicted or rape, theft and murder.

Some SS units bravely saved trapped, wounded and injured civilians at the cost of their own lives.

To use scattered incidents as if they were the norm (ignoring more common behaviour) would give one the Impression that the SS were living saints and allied soldiers were all murderous paedophiles invading europe to rape 14 year old girls they could pick off.



Lets be honest here, the manager at a McDonalds can't keep the staff from skimming the till. The police can't keep dirty cops out (thats why they have Internal Affairs), why would you think a conscript military could keep itself 100% squeeky clean? Its impossible, sometimes bad people abuse their power. It doesn't mean everyone is abusive, or even a majority, hell..not even a noticable minority.
 

CDNBear

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The problem here, is you see one incident and act like therefore that is routine behaviour.

Allied soldiers in WWII were occassionally convicted or rape, theft and murder.

Some SS units bravely saved trapped, wounded and injured civilians at the cost of their own lives.

To use scattered incidents as if they were the norm (ignoring more common behaviour) would give one the Impression that the SS were living saints and allied soldiers were all murderous paedophiles invading europe to rape 14 year old girls they could pick off.



Lets be honest here, the manager at a McDonalds can't keep the staff from skimming the till. The police can't keep dirty cops out (thats why they have Internal Affairs), why would you think a conscript military could keep itself 100% squeeky clean? Its impossible, sometimes bad people abuse their power. It doesn't mean everyone is abusive, or even a majority, hell..not even a noticable minority.
I don't know who licked the red off your lollipop Z, but you're preaching to the wrong choir here.

Common sense and logic, as you have applied, will only garner resentment and terms such as chicken retards, etc.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Unless of course the problem is systemic. If a press photographer filmed this recently, how often has it happened when no one with a camera was around?

If this practice is so uncommon, then why did such activities draw the attention of the Israeli supreme court?

Israel bans use of human shields

The practice of using human shields is against international law


Israel's supreme court has banned the use of Palestinian human shields in arrest raids, saying the practice violates international law.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4314898.stm

By the way, in one of the incidents above, the 19 year old IDF human shield was killed in the cross fire....

Here is some context:

20 July 2006: Israeli Soldiers use civilians as Human Shields in Beit Hanun
B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.
After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians. The soldiers also demanded that one of the occupants walk in front of them during a search of all the apartments in one of the buildings, after which they released her...

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

Israel: Decision to Stop Use of "Human Shields" Welcomed
(Jerusalem, May 10, 2002) - The Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) decision to prohibit the use of Palestinian civilians as "human shields" during military operations is an important step forward toward complying with the requirements of international humanitarian law, Human Rights Watch said today...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/05/10/isrlpa3914.htm
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Well, I got married once with a photographer around, are you suggesting I therefore must get married even more frequently when there are no photographers around?

Its possible, its not supported though.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Well, I got married once with a photographer around, are you suggesting I therefore must get married even more frequently when there are no photographers around?

Its possible, its not supported though.

Hmmm, the IDF use one Palestinian(that doesn't die) as a human shield and they're called criminals.

The Hezbollah use schools, hospitals, residential homes, apartments, etc. that inevitably get hundreds killed and their called freedom fighters.

That dog don't hunt!!!

You seem to be missing the point alot lately earth.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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Would you care to back up your claims about Hezbollah using human shields from a reliable source?

Like this for example.

...Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.

By consistently failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians, Israel has violated one of the most fundamental tenets of the laws of war: the duty to carry out attacks on only military targets. The pattern of attacks during the Israeli offensive in Lebanon suggests that the failures cannot be explained or dismissed as mere accidents; the extent of the pattern and the seriousness of the consequences indicate the commission of war crimes.

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm

Sounds to me like Hezbollah is no more guilty of using human shields than the Israelis which stores their munitions near non-Jewish villages:

...[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel’s enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel’s Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields -- protection for Israel’s war machine.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Before the strike close to Nazareth late on Sunday night, several Arab villages in the north had been hit by Hizbullah rockets trying to reach these factories. No one at the BBC saw the need to mention these attacks nor the fact that "mostly Muslim" villages had been hit...[/SIZE][/FONT]

http://www.uruknet.de/index.php?p=24794&hd=0&size=1&colonna=m&bh=0&l=e&nn=3&ff=www.uruknet.de&if=5

When people think about human shields, usually they refer to these kinds of activities:

...On Wednesday, Israeli forces destroyed the home of Nasser Jerar, who the army said was planning a bombing attack. In that operation, troops forced 19-year-old Nidal Daraghmeh at gunpoint to approach the building before it was bulldozed to persuade any civilians inside to leave, army officials said.


Even though he was given a bulletproof vest and soldiers announced his presence, Daraghmeh was fatally shot in the head as he approached the house, local media reported.
The Israeli army has said Daraghmeh was hit by gunfire from the house. Palestinians accuse the army of killing the young man. Jerar was crushed to death as bulldozers razed the house.

Practice called routine
The army, throughout the West Bank incursions, has relied on forcing Palestinians to help with its armed raids. This spring, Palestinian bystanders in cities such as Jenin and Nablus told reporters that such incidents were routine...

http://commondreams.org/headlines02/0817-05.htm

But if the IDF doesn't use human shields then why did they appeal the Israeli Supreme Court ban?

The Israeli Defence Ministry will appeal against a supreme court ruling banning the use of Palestinian human shields in raids, officials said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
 

CDNBear

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I've been through this before with another one of you Hezbollah supporters, NO SOURCE is reliable, unbias, reputable or otherwise, if it points out the crimes of the Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO or any other anti semetic group, in your eyes. So there really is no point in me wasting my time to dig up the e-mails of a Canadian observer who reported to his superiors that the Hezbollah was using his UN outpost as a shield, the EU referendum article, complete with photo graphic eveidence of the Hezbollah's technicals in residential areas, the multitude of Israeli air recon photage(Ya those planes you keep crying about).

None of that is reputable in your eyes, so why should i waste my time.

btw, I never claimed the IDF did not use human shields, I pointed out that they use human shields in low numbers, compared to the Hezbollah. Since you like to post pretty graphs, showing the low mortality rate of Israelis, from Hezbollah rocket fire and the High mortality rate of Lebonese from Israeli retaliations, I figured you would understand the imbalance in the death toll of human shields, Israel vs. Hezbollah. If the numbers game you generally play, isn't good enough to apply here, it should be applied else where either, lest you be hypocritical.
 

L Gilbert

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The scene - caught by an Associated Press Television News camera - has raised questions about whether the Israeli army is still using Palestinian civilians during military operations, despite a Supreme Court order barring the practice.
And this differs from the Hizbollah hiding behind civilians from the Israeli? Sorry, I can't see any diff.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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I've been through this before with another one of you Hezbollah supporters, NO SOURCE is reliable, unbias, reputable or otherwise, if it points out the crimes of the Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO or any other anti semetic group, in your eyes. So there really is no point in me wasting my time to dig up the e-mails of a Canadian observer who reported to his superiors that the Hezbollah was using his UN outpost as a shield, the EU referendum article, complete with photo graphic eveidence of the Hezbollah's technicals in residential areas, the multitude of Israeli air recon photage(Ya those planes you keep crying about).

None of that is reputable in your eyes, so why should i waste my time.

btw, I never claimed the IDF did not use human shields, I pointed out that they use human shields in low numbers, compared to the Hezbollah. Since you like to post pretty graphs, showing the low mortality rate of Israelis, from Hezbollah rocket fire and the High mortality rate of Lebonese from Israeli retaliations, I figured you would understand the imbalance in the death toll of human shields, Israel vs. Hezbollah. If the numbers game you generally play, isn't good enough to apply here, it should be applied else where either, lest you be hypocritical.

Let me be clear. I DO NOT SUPPORT HEZBOLLAH OR HAMAS. Clear enough?

I believe in non-violence. If I am on anyone's side, its on the side of innocent victims on both sides. But I do have a problem with pro-Israeli propaganda pretending to be news and resulting misperceptions. When people post BS propaganda about this conflict, I will post the other sides viewpoint for balance. If people want to have a balanced opinion, then they should listen to both sides and make up their own minds based all the facts and common sense.

I post information which our news should be telling us and isn't. Many people in North America only know the Israeli viewpoint, but do not know or consider the viewpoints of the other belligerents in this conflict.

I have not seen any credible evidence of Hezbollah or Hamas abducting innocent civilians at gunpoint and hiding behind them as they fire at IDF soldiers. I have seen evidence of innocent people coming to the aid of militants. But as soon as they do that, they are no longer innocent. But as long as they don't take up arms they are unarmed. The IDF can and often does kill unarmed civilians with impunity and most of the time, these crimes aren't reported in our news. But just because these crimes aren't reported doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I have referenced Israeli, internationally respected humanitarian groups as well as credible news sources which claim that IDF soldiers have abducted innocent civilians at gun point and hid behind them as they fired on militants and in at least one case, the innocent civilian ended up dead as a result.

I have also referenced a BBC story which claims the IDF tried to appeal the Israeli Supreme court to allow them to continue to innocent civilians as human shields. I have also referenced Israeli sources which claim the IDF continues to use innocent civilians as human shields even after the Israeli supreme court ruled this activity as illegal.

People who support Israel seldom reference credible sources and often they just offer their unsupported opinions, without references. How reliable is that?

You may choose not to believe the BBC, Human Rights Watch and B'tselem, and instead choose to believe the National Enquirer, FOXnews, AIPAC or CAMERA which are all about the same level of reliability and credibilty. But that hardly makes your opinion credible, informed or objective.
 
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CDNBear

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You defend=you support...

earth said:
Like this for example.


Quote:
...Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.

By consistently failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians, Israel has violated one of the most fundamental tenets of the laws of war: the duty to carry out attacks on only military targets. The pattern of attacks during the Israeli offensive in Lebanon suggests that the failures cannot be explained or dismissed as mere accidents; the extent of the pattern and the seriousness of the consequences indicate the commission of war crimes.

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm

I have posted several pieces from reputable sources, only to be told they're Israeli shills, it's the work of the Mossad, the CIA etc.

I can post links to video footage taken by Isareli recon aircraft, showing Hezbollah launching rokets into Israel from beside apartment buildings, and on and on.

But you and the other Hezbollah supporters instantly dismiss it. I rarely dismiss your posts, other then to point out the bias the articles have, and the lack of credibale footnotes at the origins. But they for the most part are true, it's the spin you put on them and your obvious bias, that annoys the hell out of everybody.

Have you ever wondered why very few people wish to discuss this issue with you? Well other then the anti Israeli, anti Us crowd, which in any event are just supporters of your bias.
 

darkbeaver

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But you and the other Hezbollah supporters instantly dismiss it. I rarely dismiss your posts, other then to point out the bias the articles have, and the lack of credibale footnotes at the origins. But they for the most part are true, it's the spin you put on them and your obvious bias, that annoys the hell out of everybody.



:laughing7::laughing7::wave: