Turkey does not deserve the punishment the EU contemplates.

Blackleaf

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Turksy should be allowed to join the EU.


The Times



December 11, 2006




Straight Road to Europe

Turkey does not deserve the punishment the EU contemplates


For 43 years, Turkey has been knocking at the European Union’s door. Despite being the guardian of Nato’s southern flank, firmly aligned with the West throughout the Cold War, it has watched other states with dictatorial pasts and fragile economies — Spain, Portugal and Greece, and Eastern Europe’s new democracies (Germany was led by Adolf Hitler in the decade before it joined the embryonic EU) — push past it in the queue for admission. It has listened to European statesmen extol enlargement, correctly, for expanding the community of stable, prosperous democracies and establishing the EU as a confident, outward-looking player on the global stage. It has worked hard to deprive them of reasons for keeping Turkey’s application on hold, not just through internal reforms but by endorsing, and persuading Turkish Cypriots to agree to, a United Nations plan that would have ended the division of Cyprus if the Greek Cypriots had not then stubbornly rejected reunification.

By the time the EU finally rewarded Turkey’s efforts by promising, in October 2005, to open accession talks and pursue them in good faith, Turkey was entitled to expect its members to keep their word. They have not done so. It has proved impossible even to start negotiating, because Cyprus has blocked the opening of all but one of the 35 “chapters” of the accession dossier until Turkey opens its ports to Cypriot shipping.

It is true that Turkey is legally obliged to open its markets to all EU members, without exception. But the Union is also morally obliged to reciprocate, as it promised it would, by simultaneously ending the trade and travel embargoes on the Turkish Cypriot part of Cyprus. The Greek- Cypriot Government has blocked that, too — and insists it will continue to whatever Turkey does. Far from pressing Cyprus to see reason, the EU has laid all the blame for this absurd dispute on Turkey — and has stubbornly carried on doing so even after last week’s politically brave offer by Ankara to make a unilateral first move towards compromise. At this week’s EU summit, governments are poised to “punish” Turkey by putting large segments of the negotiating agenda in the deep freeze. There they would stay until all EU members decided otherwise.

The EU should do no such thing. The effect, although no one is saying so, could be to keep Turkey out of Europe for the duration. That would suit Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and Nicolas Sarkozy, the centre-right would-be president of France; both are openly opposed to admitting Turkey. It would please Austrians, Belgians and Dutch who have become increasingly neuralgic about immigration in general and Muslims in particular. It is their support that Cyprus relies on. But for Europe, even more than for Turkey, this would be an error of historic proportions.

The political and strategic case for embracing Turkey has been made stronger, not weaker, by the Islamist challenge. Its part-Asian identity should be seen as an asset, as should its proxim-ity to and knowledge of the Middle East. EU entry is contingent on Turkey showing that Islam can sit with secular democracy, a challenge that Turkish modernisers are determined to meet. It should not be contingent on temper tantrums in Cyprus — a country that stands greatly to gain from good relations with the country that will in future dominate the Aegean economy. Turkey will not settle for second-class citizenship, as Mrs Merkel knows and should publicly admit. There is no middle way. Turkey’s road into the EU will be long. The Union should not make it unnecessarily crooked.

thetimesonline.co.uk
 

Zzarchov

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I think the EU needs to be slapped by Canada, and we should recognize Turkish Cyprus as an Independant Nation.

1.) The Peace Treaty states Cyprus can't be in any union that does not include BOTH Greece and Turkey. You can't break a treaty because your in a better position now..thats the whole point.

2.) They deny Turkish Cypriots equal rights based on ancestry. If Cyprus is part of the EU , and Turkish Cyprus isn't a seperate nation..then Turkish Cypriots deserve full rights as EU citizens, such as not having your ports blocked.
 

Said1

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Honestly, who needs a third layer of bureaucracy? The EU has strayed for from it's original intents an purposes.
 

northstar

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Turkey has not been allowed in because they are murdering theives who torture Christians. They have 5000 human right abuse cases being investigated currently, torturing and jailing people due to their human rights of free speech, religious preferance, or simply because a Muslim wanted their home so a reason was made up...after all deciet was used all the time by Muhammad, so lieing is fine and deandy with the Islamic government.

Turkey murdered a little old lady, tending sick children when they got angry at the Pope for claiming they were not violent...kind of a "how dare he comment on our religion, we will show him and murder someone"...gesh, so they are violent, talk about over-KILL.

Turkey had a riot showing displeasure about the world tolerating their religion...kind of a "how dare you tolerate us, we will show you how much we tolerate you religous beliefs" and they protest by beating some priests, looting churches, burning effigies of the pope, and just for fun, kicked some Christians out of their home and then beat them up...all wearing head to toe burkas and waving poster claiming, "we hate you,"" we will kill you"," death to all infidels..."

but don't dispair...l understand that their are great deals on travel to Turkey, you will be invited to a wonderful entertainment, it is called "welcome, let us introduce you to the hungry lion...we tortured him for fun just before you arrived..."

It is all scripturally approved all about hatred and violence in the name of allah...
 

L Gilbert

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Well, 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Just in the crusades, between the christians and the "mohammedans" they slew about 9 million people. That may not seem much these days, but back between the 11th and 14th century, that was a largish fraction of the world's population. So as far as blame goes, the street goes both ways.
I know the crusades may not have caused all the ruckus in the middle east from then till now, but they sure as hell chipped in.
 

gopher

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Turkey's War On Kurds

http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=ma99mckiernan


Turkey's war on the Kurds


By Kevin McKiernan
March/April 1999 pp. 26-37 (vol. 55, no. 02) © 1999 Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists


ehind army lines in the Turkish province of Siirt, scores of frightened refugees were on the run. They were Kurdish families, fleeing a village that had recently been burned by the Turkish army. When I caught up to them, they were fording the Tigris River, guiding a long line of donkeys laden with refrigerators and other goods.
In the village, most of the houses were in ashes. Only a handful of residents had returned to scavenge some of their belongings. The local mayor told me that an army commander, accompanied by a group of government-armed village guards, had arrived and given residents 24 hours to get out of town. Some quickly dug holes in the outlying fields to bury valuables; others just gathered up what they could carry and abandoned the rest.
I walked through the rubble, taking pictures. The destruction was fresh, maybe a couple of days old, and some of it was still smoldering. I heard an army helicopter overhead. It was American-made, a Sikorsky Black Hawk, the type the Turkish army uses to land troops in the villages. But it was high in the air, on a different mission. I finished my work and moved on.

Roots run deep

At 25 million, the Kurds are the largest ethnic group in the world without their own state. With a similar language, religion, and culture, the Kurds have lived for thousands of years in an area that is now part of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and the former Soviet Union. Today, the 15 million Kurds who live in Turkey constitute about 25 percent of that country's population.
After World War I, Kurds hoped to create a homeland from the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire, but those dreams vanished with the birth of the Turkish Republic in 1923. Riding a wave of nationalism, Mustafa Kemal--known as Ataturk, "the Father of the Turks"--imposed a single identity on the multicultural population of Turkmans, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, and others. Most minorities were forcibly assimilated; everyone became a Turk. (The Kurds were called "Mountain Turks" until after the Gulf War in 1991.)
In the first 25 years of the Turkish Republic there were dozens of Kurdish uprisings. All were crushed, but discontent continued. In 1984, a Marxist-led group called the PKK, the Kurdistan Workers Party, began an armed struggle against the government.
The war in Turkey represents the single largest use of U.S. weapons anywhere in the world by non-U.S. forces, according to Bill Hartung of the World Policy Institute. "I can think of no instance since the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982," he said, "where American weaponry has been put to this concentrated a use." In 15 years of fighting in Turkey nearly 40,000 lives have been lost, more than in the conflicts on the West Bank and in Northern Ireland combined. The two million refugees produced by the war in Kurdistan are roughly the number of homeless created by the widely reported war in Bosnia, where U.S. weapons were not a factor. In contrast, 75 percent of the Turkish arsenal was made in the United States, according to estimates.
Despite these statistics, the civil strife in Turkey has received comparatively little coverage in the U.S. media. Television news rarely mentions the Kurds, unless the story relates to the Iraqi Kurds. It is almost as though there are two sets of Kurds--the Kurds in Iraq, who seem to be viewed as the "good" Kurds because they oppose Saddam, and the Kurds in Turkey, who are "bad" because they oppose a U.S. ally. It doesn't seem to matter that there are four times as many Kurds in Turkey, or that both populations have suffered repression from their respective governments.
Until 1991, Kurdish music and language, dress, associations, and newspapers were banned by the Turkish government. After the Gulf War, Kurdish printing was legalized, but in the intervening years numerous Kurdish newspaper offices have been bombed and closed. More than a dozen Kurdish journalists, as well as numerous politicians and activists, have been killed by death squads (human rights groups list more that 4,000 extrajudicial killings during the period). Despite 15 years of fighting the PKK, Turkey today has no POWs; most rebels, according to the government, have been "captured dead." But there are large numbers of civilian Kurds in Turkish prisons where, according to organizations like Amnesty International, the use of torture is routine.
Kurdish TV and radio are still illegal in Turkey, although the government has promised to soften the ban. The Kurdish language still may not be taught in schools or used by merchants on storefronts or in advertising. It is illegal in Turkey for parents to give their child a Kurdish name.

Shepherds and soldiers

In June 1995, the army commander from the city of Mardin informed residents of the village of Alimlikoy--called Bilalya by the Kurds--that they would have to go on the payroll of the state as village guards. The villagers were reluctant to become guards because that would put them in the middle of the war with the PKK rebels. They were shepherds who spent long, isolated hours in the mountains with their flocks; they feared that if they accepted weapons from the government, they would become targets for the guerrillas. The Turkish officer gave them two weeks to think about it. When no answer was forthcoming, he arrested the "muhtar," or village elder. The shepherd who walked me into Alimlikoy--overland, around the blockaded road--told me the muhtar had been kept in jail for several days. He had been beaten, according to the shepherd, "but not badly."
On the day the muhtar was released, which was shortly before my arrival, the villagers hired trucks to haul away household goods and as much of the ripening harvest of lentils and barley as they could carry. I arrived in time to see some of the harvests, piled in heaps by the side of the road. The Kurds were pouring salvaged grain into plastic bags, which they hoped to sell at the market. On a hillside, a giant sign read: "Happy is He Who Can Call Himself a Turk."
Back in Alimlikoy, I asked the shepherd why he hadn't just agreed to become a guard. "Why would we?" he asked. "We have our fields and our animals. We have an income.
"Besides," he said with some emphasis, "why should we try to do a job that not even the state can accomplish?"

U.S. arms and human rights

Since 1980 the United States has sold or given Turkey--a NATO ally--$15 billion worth of weapons. In the last decade the Turkish army has leveled, burned, or forcibly evacuated more than 3,000 Kurdish villages. That is roughly three-quarters the number of Kurdish settlements destroyed in Iraq in the 1980s during Saddam Hussein's infamous "Anfal" campaign, when the West was arming Iraq and turning a blind eye to widespread human rights violations.
Most of the destruction in Turkey took place between 1992 and 1995, during the Clinton administration's first term. In 1995 the administration acknowledged that American arms had been used by the Turkish government in domestic military operations "during which human rights abuses have occurred." In a report ordered by Congress, the State Department admitted that the abuses included the use of U.S. Cobra helicopters, armored personnel carriers, and F-16 fighter bombers. In some instances, critics say, entire Kurdish villages were obliterated from the air.
The administration conceded that the Turkish policy had forced more than two million Kurds from their homes. Some of the villages were evacuated and burned, bombed, or shelled by government forces to deprive the PKK of a "logistical base of operations," according to the State Department report, while others were targeted because their inhabitants refused to join the "village guards," a brutal military tactic--patterned on the Vietnam-era "model villages" program--that requires civilian Kurds to fight Kurdish guerrillas.


more ...


One possible reason why the EU doesn't approve of Turkey's membership.
 

northstar

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Turkey told the international community that it needed to buy defence weaponry so it could protect it's borders against terrorists and opium smugglers.

The U.S. unknowing of any other agenda, joined the other international communities like Russia and Germany and China, to help out.

This is yet another example of how information gets twisted by those who are treasonous to their country, Gopher you need to get your facts straight...not that l liked Clinton, who not only was a cheating husband who never deserved such an intelligent woman such as Hilary, but also knew how to ruin a perfectly good cigar...

I hear that he is busy in his new business, SMOKE-EM-SEX, featuring STINKYSMOKESFORCHEATINGHUSBANDS.COM

Anyway, the U.S. is not to blame for the deceptive lies of a Turkish regime that murdered and butchered entire families, burnt homes, raped and tortured innocent unarmed people, and then stole any property they could. To this day they are not giving back the property. In fact it is either now the Governments or it has been just taken, in true theif like fashion, by the Islamists. They sleep well at night because it is all scripturally approved.

Again, the evil actions are part of the deeply ingrained centuries old Islamic culture, which in verse after verse, supports actions against any and all NON-Muslims...just reading tea with terrorists and open your eyes to the reality of this religion and how it is the fire in the belly of this bloodshed, theivery and the psychological state of sociopathic behaviour. When these people are brought into this world they begin training, using toys and as soon as possible textbooks, so that the hate is very very deep and supported by Islamic texts that promote every violent and socialpathic action.

The only way Turkey can hope to get into the European Union is to give back the property to the Kurds, stop the persecution of the Jews and the Christians, turn over the churches, make restitution to those churches they demolished or took over as mosques, and them release the tortured Christians that they have in their jails, the ones whose crimes are chosing a religion that is not Islam.

5000 human rights abuse cases...and counting.
 

northstar

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try currently,

and once again you are just posting a comment that has been made up, having zero facts to back up what you are saying...this seems to be a habit.
 

#juan

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Last Updated: Monday, 13 December, 2004, 22:20 GMT

E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Turkey 'must admit Armenia dead'

France has said Turkey must improve its human rights record

France has said it will ask Turkey to acknowledge the mass killing of Armenians from 1915 as a "tragedy" when it begins EU accession talks.
French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said Turkey had "a duty to remember".
Armenians say 1.5 million of their people died or were deported from their homelands under Turkish Ottoman rule.
Mr Barnier did not say it was genocide, although the French parliament has done so in the past. Turkey says the victims died during civil unrest.
Mr Barnier said France did not consider Turkish acknowledgement a condition of EU entry, but insisted his country would raise the issue once talks opened.
France will pose this question - I think that a big country like Turkey has a duty to remember



Michel Barnier
French Foreign Minister



Where Turkey's bid stands

Speaking to reporters after a meeting of EU foreign ministers to discuss plans to invite Turkey for accession talks, Mr Barnier said Turkey "must carry out this task as a memorial".

In addition, France believes that accession talks should not begin before the second half of 2005, Mr Barnier said. Turkey has pushed for immediate negotiations.
"I believe that when the time comes, Turkey should come to terms with its past, be reconciled with its own history and recognise this tragedy," Mr Barnier said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4092933.stm



 

L Gilbert

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Seems to me that there are an awful lot of pots calling the kettle black. Easy to forget about ones' own activites in the past and point fingers.
I'm not defending Turkey, just pointing out that it isn't the only one mentioned with human rights violations, persecutions, etc. in its past. Lookit some of the members of the UN, for instance.
 

northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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well Gibert start a thread and lets discuss it, but this IS the discussion about TURKEY and the E.U.

I like this from Juan's thread-

Turkey says the victims died during civil unrest.



LOL

Indeed it was civil unrest, because the Islamic Turkey's couldn't sleep with the deep hatred inside and the need to take the property and rights of the Kurds.

They did it in a cowardly fashion, disarming, ambushing and senselessly murdering children...

5000 CASES AND COUNTING....
 

jimmoyer

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At first I disapproved the haughty elitism of the EU, but I think I am wrong about that.
I am now in favor of the EU making Turkey re-look at itself. Even if Turkey finally
disagrees after all the debate, it is still worth the 2nd look at issues.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Ok, so..Turkey should feel deep guilt about the actions of people long dead..

France should not apologize for causing and abetting a genocide 12 years ago..
Nor its actions in the Ivory Coast (currently)
Nor its terrorist actions against New Zealand (and it PUNISHING New Zealand for catching the french agents responsible and not letting them go)
Police Brutality and Human Rights Violations against minority groups (oh sure they had a reason, but its not like the Turks are shooting Kurds without cause either, the PKK is alot more dangerous than Parisian Muslims)
Its violent meddling in Haitian Affairs.

Lets not forget the actions in algeria, its actions in WWII as an axis power, its actions in Indo-China, its Colonial Ethnic Cleansing (if we are dealing with the past), Not to mention is conquest and suppression of Native Groups to supplant them with "French" culture, including the banning of languages (the Bretons, Corsica, etc etc)

SO, if France is an Ideal member of the EU then Turkey fits right in, save its getting too soft these last few years.
 

Zzarchov

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yes, the kurds are actually secular, much like the turks.

They are Ethnic groups, like the Spanish and the Basques (which is a good anology for how they act)
 

tracy

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yes, the kurds are actually secular, much like the turks.

They are Ethnic groups, like the Spanish and the Basques (which is a good anology for how they act)

So why are some people convinced their fight with the Turks is all about religion?
 

northstar

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Ok, so..Turkey should feel deep guilt about the actions of people long dead..
-zzarski

The thing is Z. that they are still acting in ways that defy human rights, they recently arrested a Christian who had converted from Islam and was telling the world why, they are claiming it as treason since the country is ruled by a Islamic Government.

In addition their are many such events, this isn't just about the kurds.

And Tracy, the Kurds are in different places in the middle-east and wikipedia does a great job in sorting it all out....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

that is were l found this example-
the existence of distinct ethnic groups like Kurds in Turkey was officially denied and any expression by the Kurds of their ethnic identity was harshly repressed. Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language — although widespread — was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the EU, music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions). Additionally, education in Kurdish is now permitted though only in private institutions.

Coffee shop in Diyarbakır, 1909


Nevertheless, as late as 1994, Leyla Zana, the first female Kurdish representative in the Turkey's Parliament, was charged for separatist speech and sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her inauguration as an MP, she reportedly identified herself as a Kurd. Amnesty International reported "She took the oath of loyalty in Turkish, as required by law, then added in Kurdish, 'I shall struggle so that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples may live together in a democratic framework.' Parliament erupted with shouts of 'Separatist', 'Terrorist', and 'Arrest her'".[46]

THe Islamic Turks are imposing all kinds of limits on the Kurds, such as not allowing them to speak in their own language, and only allowed a radio broadcast in their own language for 60 minutes a day...But Kurds own land and have rights so they are demanding a part of the government...you know religion and politics is really a disaster waiting to happen, so how about governments that encompass all religions.
In an interview with the Turkish Daily News, Şerafettin Elçi, a former minister who has been engaged in efforts to set up a new “Kurdish” party this year, said developments in Iraq have shown that federalism is the best administrative system for multi-nation countries. He said the new Iraqi constitution was “exemplary” for all states of the region because it will reflect on all countries of the area, particularly Turkey, where the most Kurds live.

Claiming that the social structure of Iraq and Turkey were very similar, Elçi said that despite political boundaries the peoples of Iraq and Turkey are ethnically, socially and culturally very much the same.
He said the developments in Iraq might help Turkey overcome its “disintegration” phobia.
Elçi said it was very probable that the Kurdish population of Turkey will start demanding federalism in Turkey as well. “Such trivial language courses, a half-hour Kurdish broadcasting right, will no longer suffice for the Kurds of Turkey. They will as well demand administrative rights. They will demand the right to self-rule. Self-rule does not necessarily mean having their separate state. There are various models of achieving that. It might be through establishment of an autonomous region, it might be through federalism or confederalism. A model suitable to the structure of the region will have to be selected. Under U.N. norms, Kurds have the qualification as a people to exercise self-determination. The rights of the Kurds should not be limited to cultural ones because they have demands for administrative rights as well. This could be described as political rights,” he said.
for the whole article click here
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=33010

The attitude of the Turkish regime was never more powerful and clear than the way in which they showed the Pope how they showed tolerance, WITH UNCIVILIZED threatening protests denouncing the Pope, death threats and did nothing to show respect for a different religious belief. They even insisted he pray in their temple not appologizing about the grave injustices and persecution that the christians are enduring...
Furthermore they have recently beaten up priests, robbed and looted homes and religious buildings of the Orthodox Christians, and have refused to return homes and businesses to those families that are non-Muslim or Kurdish Muslims {because they are a mix, and l think, but l am not sure, that they are a religious belief unto itself, believing in reincarnation and angels and things like that...}.So the injustices are current and l will try to dig up the recent arrest of Journalists who dared to comment on the government....
 

I think not

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The "morally superior" EU scolding Turkey about a historical event that happened 100 years ago by people long dead. The Armenian Genocide is a matter of history, judge those who perpatrated the genocide, not their great great great grandchildren.
 

tracy

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-zzarski

The thing is Z. that they are still acting in ways that defy human rights, they recently arrested a Christian who had converted from Islam and was telling the world why, they are claiming it as treason since the country is ruled by a Islamic Government.

In addition their are many such events, this isn't just about the kurds.

And Tracy, the Kurds are in different places in the middle-east and wikipedia does a great job in sorting it all out....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

that is were l found this example-


THe Islamic Turks are imposing all kinds of limits on the Kurds, such as not allowing them to speak in their own language, and only allowed a radio broadcast in their own language for 60 minutes a day...But Kurds own land and have rights so they are demanding a part of the government...you know religion and politics is really a disaster waiting to happen, so how about governments that encompass all religions.
for the whole article click here
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=33010

The attitude of the Turkish regime was never more powerful and clear than the way in which they showed the Pope how they showed tolerance, WITH UNCIVILIZED threatening protests denouncing the Pope, death threats and did nothing to show respect for a different religious belief. They even insisted he pray in their temple not appologizing about the grave injustices and persecution that the christians are enduring...
Furthermore they have recently beaten up priests, robbed and looted homes and religious buildings of the Orthodox Christians, and have refused to return homes and businesses to those families that are non-Muslim or Kurdish Muslims {because they are a mix, and l think, but l am not sure, that they are a religious belief unto itself, believing in reincarnation and angels and things like that...}.So the injustices are current and l will try to dig up the recent arrest of Journalists who dared to comment on the government....

Thanks for the links. They confirm Kurds are still largely muslims, so the Turks oppressing them has to do with culture not religion, doesn't it?