Creation or Evolution?

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
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Topic: Creation or Evolution?
Content: Which theory do you support and why?

This thread is in the "Articles and Debates" forum. Please read the announcement in this forum before responding to this topic.

Put your best argument forward; up to 1000 words. Moderators will judge the replies based on a structured criteria. The winner will receive a signature graphic indicating their article winning selection. More may be awarded, depending on the amount of submissions received. Judging is final.

Note:

* Article must be in your words - no plagiarism (no cut and paste)
* No rebuttal writing (don't just respond to the last post - be original)
* No flaming/trolling
* max. 1000 words

We look forward to reading your articles. Thank you in advance for your participation. To submit your article simply reply in this thread.

Thank you!

CC Staff
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Creation or evolution? The arrival of Darwinian thought sparked the debate and is not the first time science and religion has met on a field wielding observable fact and doctrine. This battle pits the ever-growing body of evidence supporting evolution against those who believe in a literal genesis. Not all members of organized religion believe that the bible is a literal account, rather that it is a collection of stories inspired by a deity with the express purpose of guiding what is deemed to be moral and acceptable behaviour.

The modern creationist point of view is carried by a number of young Earth creationists. These people believe that the Earth and Universe is in the area of 6000 years old and that mankind is descended from Adam and Eve through to Jesus. They use the Bible chronology to arrive at that age of 6000 years old. The problem with this narrow view is that it flies in the face of large volumes of empirical evidence which shows the Earth to be in fact much older. The Creationist stance has not changed much over the past 25 years and every year their position is weakened by new discoveries. One of their most treasured weapons is carbon dating. They use the limits of carbon dating to try to validate that science is flawed and that the Bible is the most reliable piece of evidence we have. Radiometric dating using the carbon-14 isotope can only be reliably used to date organic samples in the range of 50-100,000 years old. In order to date to the latter, you need sophisticated analytical tools which can isolate the ratio of carbon-14 to the other isotopes, and the lab technician must be able to eliminate any contamination of the sample.

There are many other methods for dating a material, carbon dating being the most commonly known by the layperson, but poorly understood. This is the tenet for the Creationists argument; use the same tired arguments that most people do not understand to disprove the reliability of the scientific method. They pray on the fact that evolutionists cannot provide all the answers that their precious book can. This is perhaps the most disingenuous aspect of their position. If one were to search the Bible, you would find a passage where the numerical value of Pi, that wonderful coefficient we use in geometry, is 3. Yes that's right, 3, not the 3.141592654 and so on. One would also find that Genesis, the backbone of the creationist argument puts the Geocentric Universe forward. The Sun, the Moon, the stars, all set in the firmament or sky and revolving around us. We know that Pi and a geocentric universe as put forward by the bible, are not true.

Now in order to believe that evolution is false, we would have to believe that the fossil record has been entirely a scam by the scientific community. The dinosaur bones, bones of early hominids, even the geological record, has all been planted evidence, like a cop placing a dime bag in the pocket of the suspect he just bludgeoned with his club. That would have to be the largest scale of purgery ever committed against humanity, by a wide margin.

The most formidable weapon yielded by evolutionists is the code, which makes life possible. Genetics is a marvelous study of the natural world and has come a long way. Our genome, the genome of sea urchins, the genomes of insects, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and all life shares a common ancestry. The fashion in which DNA is used by one set of animals, replicated for use in a completely morphologically different group of animals is the truly amazing part. The same code in humans that gives rise to our sense of smell, hearing and sight, is found in the sea urchin's tube foot, a body part that cannot smell, hear or see anything. Genetics has been remarkable in how it can reuse a proven code for different physiological needs.

One of the lines that tickles me the most is, "If we are to believe evolution, we are to believe that life happened by complete random chance, or an accident". First off, evolution makes no claims as to how life began. That's where we have theistic evolutionists. God could very well be that missing piece, the one who allowed life to begin in that primordial ooze a few billion years ago. Also, once life is here, the evolution is not accidental. It is chance and probability but everything can be viewed in such a way. The mutations, which gave rise to the biodiversity, as we understand it, are random, and they have probability. What is not random, is whether or not the mutation will survive. If the new mutation provides the individual with an advantage, it will survive and pass on to future generations. Fish did not grow legs, some fish developed lobed fins instead of rays in the fins like a trout or salmon. The lobes allowed for the fins to be adaptable to supporting the weight of the fish body, and in times of environmental stress like food availability, the new fish could drag it's body into the mud, making a whole new area of food capture available.



The point is that religion and science do not have to be at odds here. Science will never be able to explain all of lifes mysteries. Also science cannot prove the existence of a deity. The number of people who make up the creationist side of this story, are blinded by their faith. Perhaps they do not wish to think of Man and Chimpanzee as related, (by the way a common misconception that we came from chimpanzees) more appropriate to say we are evolutionary cousins, sharing a common ancestor. The evidence to support the creationist side is weak andd grows weaker all the time. Very few people would take everything from the bible, that is Old and New Testament, as literal truth. There is plenty of room in the evolutionary camp for theistic evolutionists. Pull up a chair and lets talk.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
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California
I don't have that many words to support my belief which serves me fine until something else fires me up....

There is a Higher Power - in what form - existing where I know not - but it has influenced the evolution and creation of mankind from the beginning lowly lifeforms said to have begun in mud and water.

Evolution is an ongoing process and I hope mankind as we present now is not the final product!

Creation of the Evolutionary process had to come from an entity - unimaginable and unknown to any of us except through various concepts of faith and worship and denial and scientific scramblings to refute....

There has to be a master plan - and for that there has to be a Master Planner....

The age old argument is a non issue for me - for there is both Creation and Evolution and we seem to be one of its results and I hope not the last.

One only has to look at a spider web to know the fantastic complexities even the lowly spider is subjected to - and for that - a Master Planner at work.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
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50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Topic: Creation or Evolution?
Content: Which theory do you support and why?

This thread is in the "Articles and Debates" forum. Please read the announcement in this forum before responding to this topic.

Put your best argument forward; up to 1000 words. Moderators will judge the replies based on a structured criteria. The winner will receive a signature graphic indicating their article winning selection. More may be awarded, depending on the amount of submissions received. Judging is final.

Note:

* Article must be in your words - no plagiarism (no cut and paste)
* No rebuttal writing (don't just respond to the last post - be original)
* No flaming/trolling
* max. 1000 words

We look forward to reading your articles. Thank you in advance for your participation. To submit your article simply reply in this thread.

Thank you!

CC Staff
Evolution is a theory based on substantiated evidence (like bones, fossils, DNA, the various forms of dating things, etc.) so I support it. Creation is not a theory but at best an (so far) unsupported hypothesis.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
It's official. Tongington is the "Creation vs Evolution" article winner! The debate is settled forever.

When I get a chance I will send Tonington a commerative gif image suitable for his signature should he wish to use it.

Congrats Tonington!
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Personally, I believe that we don't have enough information available to say how life on earth started. However, I have no doubt in mind that once life did develop, evolution is the force that has brought man and every other creature on this planet to the point it is today. I think there is plenty of evidence, from bones to writings to medical and scientific studies that show that man...and all creatures evolve. The concepts behind evolution are used in the breeding of livestock. The concepts behind evolution are used very successfully in the medical field. So, I have no doubt that evolution is the predominant force at work. However, like I said, how the whole ball of wax got rolling is something that it does not appear we have enough information to determine without a doubt.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
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Calgary
I’m curious. For those that believe in creation do they believe the dinosaurs existed when Adam and Eve were created. If not why did god create the dinosaurs?
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
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Vancouver Island
We come from the ingredients of our earth. Nothing else makes any sense to me at all.
I do not believe in "fantasy, or anything than cannot be explained in a sensible, scientific way.
I feel embarrassed to even pretend that we were created by some "god", that is ridiculous, but
it makes good "special effects" stuff for the movies, (which I don't watch either). I like biographys
and documentaries, and movies made from real events in history. So, I guess I'd say, that I'm "just"
a "DOWN TO EARTH" person, and I know that somewhere in time, it will all come together in a
scientific way, I just wish I could be there, I'd love to know the complete history of the earth and
the universe.
But "you know", whatever makes you happy, go for it, just don't include me in any of your religious
stories, "makes me uncomfortable", don't want to be any part of "that".
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
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Regina, SK
...why did god create the dinosaurs?
Well, the debate's officially over, at least in this thread, and evolution won (as it should) thanks to a long, thoughtful, and intelligent post by Tonington, though I don't quite agree with all of it. But since you asked...

That's actually one of the more perceptive and intelligent questions around this issue. It's a "what's that about?" kind of question. There were dinosaurs once, they were the dominant large land animals for over 100 million years, now there aren't any. The extinction event that killed them off 65 million years ago also killed off about 50% of all other species too. What's that about? The fossil record shows at least six major extinction events over the last 500 million years in which anywhere from 20% to 95% of species went extinct in a very short time. The worst was the event that marks the boundary between the Permian and Triassic divisions of geological time about 250 million years ago. It killed off 95% of marine species and 70% of land species. What's that about? God got it wrong and decided to start over with the life forms he liked best?

Creationism can't answer those questions without denying most of the evidence, usually because most versions of it don't allow an earth more than 10,000 years old. A naturalistic view can. The extinction event that took out the dinosaurs and many other species--that's the most recent major extinction event--was almost certainly a major asteroid impact. The evidence for that is pretty clear: a globally visible thin layer of iridium enriched sediment at the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary, and the remnants of a huge crater of the right age in Central America. But if you deny the age of the earth, the legitimacy of radioactive dating techniques, and a thousand other converging lines of evidence, you can't explain any of that except by invoking divine fiat, which really explains nothing and produces no useful insights or information. God did it? Okay, exactly what did he do, and why did he do it? But it seems we're not allowed to ask god why he does things. He has inscrutable reasons of his own that it's not given to us to understand. What a useless idea.

It's worth noting though, as Tonington did, that evolution is not inconsistent with a creator. If you grant the existence of a creator (which I don't, but that's another issue), it's not hard to make the case that he set up evolution (i.e. descent with modification by natural selection) and the occasional asteroid impact and global climate change, to create the creatures he wanted.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
I beg to differ about dinosaurs dying off.
Crocs, gators, etc. have an extremely old lineage (about 225 million years), icthyosaurs are still found periodically, sharks have an extremely old lineage (about 400 million years), cockroaches have been around for a while (about 300 million years), etc. :)
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Isn't there a thread about a million miles long, started about a million years ago.......


And Dexter…Your still jumping in?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
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Regina, SK
I beg to differ about dinosaurs dying off.
Crocs, gators, etc. have an extremely old lineage (about 225 million years), [they aren't dinosaurs] icthyosaurs are still found periodically,[never heard that one; got a link?] sharks have an extremely old lineage (about 400 million years), [they aren't dinosaurs either] cockroaches have been around for a while (about 300 million years), [neither are they]etc. :)
I think it's generally acknowledged that the closest living relatives to dinosaurs are birds.
 

openurmind

New Member
Mar 19, 2007
3
0
1
London
In regard to Creation Vs Evolution, I have a little thought to add. The world we are trying to understand is intelligent, it is intelligently created, from the simple cell to the most complex systems in our bodies. Intelligence is the main domain. So Creation and Evolution share the same thought, Creation says God is intelligent and you could see his intelligence in his creation, while evolutionists wonder how come the world is so tuned for existence. Yet, while natural selection is the best answer evolution came up with, it comes as no surprise that the process of natural selection in itself is intelligent. It seems that intelligence was the beginning of it all.

That makes me think, what is this intelligence which I see everywhere I turn? Intelligence is definedas a property of mind that encompasses many related mental abilities, such as the capacities to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn. Is natural selection a mind? Is that mind conscious? Well, Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment.

If natural selection is an intelligent process, then it thinks, and if it is thinking then it is conscious, and if it is conscious then it is trying to understand itself, just as much as we do. And out of all the creations, it is the human being which has inherited inelligence. Are we intelligent for a reason behind our understanding?

The two main ingrediens of our world are intelligence and knowledge. One could not do without the other. Everything that ever been created has both signatures attached to it, even our bodies. Yet, the human mind was created with one and not the other. Our senses are the tools that allow us gaining knowledge. Using this knowledge we are able to create machines and tools to help us live a comfortable life. Is natural selection, like us, trying to gain the knowledge? Or knowledge is a natural part of its exisitence? Has natural selection beging at the moment of the big bang or the minute life sprung? Or are those two minutes are actually one since intelligence is infact existing in every atom? :roll:
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
The world we are trying to understand is intelligent, it is intelligently created,
You've gone off the rails already, assuming the truth of what you're trying to make a case for. That's the logical fallacy called begging the question.
That makes me think, what is this intelligence which I see everywhere I turn?
That's an illusion due to not looking deeply enough into what's really going on.
Is natural selection a mind?
No.

If natural selection is an intelligent process...
It's not. You need only look carefully at its products to understand that.

The two main ingrediens of our world are intelligence and knowledge.
No they're not. The world got along reasonably well for billions of years before intelligence and knowledge entered it. In fact it was probably better for all species except us before intelligence and knowledge showed up.
Everything that ever been created has both signatures attached to it, even our bodies.
Begging the question again.