Follow up on Australian Sheik's Folly

[Curiosity]

Last Updated: Friday, 3 November 2006, 10:02 GMT

Sydney imam seeks tribunal ruling

Sheikh Hilali issues a fresh apology

The Australian Muslim cleric criticised for comments likening unveiled women to uncovered meat has called for an ethical tribunal to consider the case.
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said he would step down if it judged him to have incited violence against women.
He also said he would wear masking tape over his mouth for six months and spend time working for women's organisations.
But a BBC correspondent in Australia says it is unlikely the tribunal will ever be set up.

SHEIKH TAJ EL-DIN AL-HILALI
Born in Egypt
Aged 64
Imam in Sydney
Appointed mufti of Australia in 1989

Controversial mufti
Muslims fear backlash
Speech excerpts

On Monday, Sheikh Hilali, who preaches at Sydney's main Lakemba Mosque, collapsed from a suspected heart attack while attending a crisis meeting to determine his future.
Four days later he returned to the mosque and repeated his apology over the comments ahead of Friday prayers.
"Any person who justifies the crime of rape or encourages it under any circumstances, or whoever degrades Australian women for their dress, is nothing but an ignorant, foolish and crazy person who does not deserve to hold any position of responsibility," his statement said.
He has previously said his suggestion that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault had been taken out of context and "misinterpreted".
'Non-starter'
The Egyptian-born sheikh said the Australian media and sections of the country's 280,000-strong Muslim community have orchestrated a plot against him.

Any person... who justifies the crime of rape... is nothing but an ignorant, foolish and crazy person

Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali

He called for the establishment of the tribunal under Australia's Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission.
But the BBC's Nick Bryant, in Sydney, describes the sheikh's proposal as "almost certainly a non-starter".
Prime Minister John Howard's government has been fierce in its condemnation of the original comments, saying its meaning was explicit and deeply offensive - a view shared by many of Australia's leading Islamic organisations.
Masking tape
The sheikh has apologised in public since his comments were publicised last week. He also asked for indefinite leave from his religious duties after suffering chest pains.
In his latest offer, Sheikh Hilali offered to resign from all religious duties if found guilty by the tribunal of inciting violence against women.
He also volunteered to spend 600 hours working for organisations offering services to women.
The offer to cover his mouth with masking tape for six months in public places would be a public effort to "discipline this mouth for uttering these words", he said.
If acquitted, the sheikh said he would take a decision about his future that would encourage peaceful coexistence between communities in Australia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6112620.stm

Sounds like common sense is prevailing in this case - the guy needs "handlers"

 

[Chukcha]

Last Updated: Friday, 3 November 2006, 10:02 GMT

On

Monday, Sheikh Hilali, who preaches at Sydney's main Lakemba Mosque, collapsed from a suspected heart attack while attending a crisis meeting to determine his future.

This guy reminds me of that dog, bites his own @rse http://www.vimeo.com/clip:20460

 

[Jay]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/

I’M going for political suicide here but I’m willing to stand up with anybody else in this country who happens to agree with Sheik Hilali’s sentiments.
Not because of any emotional or religious point of view but from sheer logic. While men who want to assault women exist, there will be women who get assaulted. Unfortunately, how a woman dresses does affect her level of likeliness to be chosen. The subsequent reaction to this latest opportunity to get angry about something is the real lesson here.
Suzanne Bassette
National secretary, Australian Democrats
Clayfield, Qld

From my understanding the Australian Democrats are the Aussie NDP.

 

[Sassylassie]

Is this cow for real, how a woman dresses determines if she will be sexually assulted. Bull, rape is rarely about uncontroled lust, it is usally a power issue. Perhaps this poor excuse for a female should hold those whom commit the crimes accountable and stop blaming victims for wearing what they choose. I'm not surprised that someone who is a socialist holds this view they often embrace the criminal and blame the victim for the criminal's hehavior.

 

[Curiosity]

Aw Suzanne....

You probably see a tart in every women who wears lipstick and has a tat!

We have women like Bassett in the U.S. - flat pans they are.

 

[Curiosity]

Sassy

You are right on about that uninformed remark Bassett made - rapes have nothing to do with a certain kind of woman - surprisingly little to do - and more to do with the violence and need to take power over
another.

Victims of rape are of the full spectrum of females if one were to do a survey (for what reason I don't know).... they are all sizes, all ages (even women in nursing homes), pretty, lackluster, young, old, etc.
just like the general population.

There is nothing in a woman's appearance which begs: Rape me.... that belongs in the perp's head.

 

[Sassylassie]

Yes it's in the perps head and the mad Imam above, I feel sorry for men like him they have lust in their eyes so they blame the female. Maybe he should deal with his inner little man and stop blaming my sex for his failings.

 

[Jay]

I'm not surprised that someone who is a socialist holds this view they often embrace the criminal and blame the victim for the criminal's hehavior.

I doubt she actually holds this view, but the left can't just up and abandon their new found favorite religion without some reluctance. I'm sure if some Christian leader came out and said these sorts of things there would be hell to pay from the Australian Democrats. It's just how it works these days.

 

[tracy]

I would never say a woman caused her rape or deserved it but I think that woman's point was that we all know there are things we as women can do to help avoid rape. There is a reason most of us wouldn't walk around alone and nearly naked at 3 am through a bad neighbourhood. We are certainly allowed to do so and if a man did rape us it would be 100% his fault, but that's not much consolation if it happens. It surprises me that with all the raging about PC bs being forced on us, this is the one statement that remains out of bounds.

I was in Hawaii last week with two of my girlfriends. We had a great time but we also tried to be as safe as possible. We stayed out late but walked home as a group, we don't take drinks from men unless we see it poured, we don't leave drinks unattended, etc. Obviously those things aren't guaranteed to keep us safe, but it's better than nothing. I'd rather be safe than right.

 

[Sassylassie]

Tracy wrote: was in Hawaii last week with two of my girlfriends. We had a great time but we also tried to be as safe as possible. We stayed out late but walked home as a group, we don't take drinks from men unless we see it poured, we don't leave drinks unattended, etc. Obviously those things aren't guaranteed to keep us safe, but it's better than nothing. I'd rather be safe than right.

Good for you Tracy, you can never be toooooooo careful about your safty.

Raping a women is soley and completley the pervs fault I don't care if the female is wearing dental floss, if a man can't control himself he renders himself an animal that acts on it's primal need.

 

[tracy]

.

Raping a women is soley and completley the pervs fault I don't care if the female is wearing dental floss, if a man can't control himself he renders himself an animal that acts on it's primal need.

I completely agree... I'm just not gonna walk around in dental floss any time soon either.

I saw an interesting study about this. Researchers gave a group of men and women a date rape story to read. Afterwords they showed one group a picture of a provocatively dressed woman, one group a pic of a conservatively dressed woman and told them that was the woman from the story. They were more likely to put some of the blame on the provocatively dressed woman and less likely to call what happened rape when shown her pic. It wasn't just men either, the result was the same for women.

 

[Sassylassie]

LOL me either sister. It makes me a little cranky when men blame women for being raped because of what she has on, a rapist isn't know for his fashion sense.

 

[northstar]

{You know Tracy, it's just this wierd idea that comes through your posts that women are somehow to blame for rape...Why as a woman, can you just not admit that this Islamic belief is dead wrong!! Am I reading your posts wrong? Are you defending men who rape? Because saying that women have some sort of control over the assault of rape is amounting to saying it is the woman's responsibility...}
This guy has refused to quit his position, so he still is in a position of authority, and he has a history of hating freedom and equal rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly

2004 Sermon September 11 and Suicide bombing comments
In February 2004 Hilaly gave a sermon at a mosque in Sidon, Lebanon, whilst overseas the text of which was translated by the Australian Embassy in Beirut. It appeared to show him supporting terrorist attack. In his sermon Hilaly said:

"Sons of Islam, there is a war of infidels taking place everywhere.

The true man is the boy who opposes Israeli tanks with strength and faith. The boy who, despite his mother's objections, goes out to war to become a martyr like his elder brother. The boy who tells his mother: 'Oh mother, don't cry for me if I die. Oh mother, Jihad has been imposed on me and I want to become a martyr'."

"September 11 is God's work against oppressors. Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error, who led your steps? Or if we ask the giant that fell, who humiliated you? Or if we ask the President, who made you cry? God is the answer."

In his speech he also prophesized that Muslims would control the White House and appeared to support Hezbollah [16] [17]. The Australian Federal Police declined to investigate his activities overseas
​

So this guy, the Islamic leader of Australia, preaches hatred as well as claiming women deserved to be raped. And he hasn't been fired...

 

[tracy]

{You know Tracy, it's just this wierd idea that comes through your posts that women are somehow to blame for rape...Why as a woman, can you just not admit that this Islamic belief is dead wrong!! Am I reading your posts wrong? Are you defending men who rape? Because saying that women have some sort of control over the assault of rape is amounting to saying it is the woman's responsibility...}...

Yes you are reading my posts wrongly. Again. What a surprise.... I never said a thing about this looney iman or whatever he is. I said I thought the point that the Bassette woman was trying to make was not that women were to blame for rape, just that there are things women do to try to decrease the chances of that happening to them. If you think we don't already do those things, you must be a man. I also specifically said the rapist is 100% to blame. Is that clear enough?

Pointing out that women can do things to make themselves safer has NOTHING to do with blaming them, it has to do with empowering them to keep themselves safe. That's why police will tell women not to walk alone at night, to lock their doors, not to answer the door to someone they don't know, not to take drinks from people they don't know, etc. Are they blaming women too or are they just educating them in ways to stay safer?

 

[northstar]

we all know there are things we as women can do to help avoid rape.

--tracy

In this thread where we are discussing how Holy Leaders of Islam are suggesting that women are responsible for being raped, it boggles my mind that a woman would actually say that they have any control over the crime!!! And l wouldn't have mentioned it if you didn't go on about the way women were dressed as if it invited rape!!!!!!!

Tracy, rape is ASSAULT. And the victim is innocent---PERIOD.

It is the Muslim way of thinking that a woman is to blame.

RAPE IS ASSAULT AND THE PERPETRATOR AND THE LEADERSHIP AND LAW ARE THE ONLY DETERANTS TO AVOID VICTIMIZING THE VICTIM...

 

[northstar]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sheik-told-shut-up--for-a-bit/2006 /10/27/1161749284120.html

Muslim leader Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly is refusing to resign over a sermon in which he blamed women for rape and instead has chanted an anti-American slogan outside Sydney's Lakemba Mosque.

​

After midday prayers today, the sheik was besieged by a group of reporters who asked him whether he would bow to demands and quit. ​

The Islamic clergyman smiled and shook his head, saying in English: "After we clean the world of the White House first." ​

His words were greeted by cheers and applause from dozens of supporters among hundreds of worshippers at mosque. ​

Several men called out "Allahu akbar'' (God is great) as the sheik's car sped away.
​

​

​

​

isn't he a piece of work? and STILL he isn't fired????

 

[tracy]

--tracy

In this thread where we are discussing how Holy Leaders of Islam are suggesting that women are responsible for being raped, it boggles my mind that a woman would actually say that they have any control over the crime!!! And l wouldn't have mentioned it if you didn't go on about the way women were dressed as if it invited rape!!!!!!!

Tracy, rape is ASSAULT. And the victim is innocent---PERIOD.
...

Your reading comprehension skills are obviously off. This is the last time I will explain it to you. Hopefully this is simple enough. There are a few separate ideas here... Ready? Here we go:

Idea 1: WOMEN ARE NOT AT FAULT WHEN THEY ARE RAPED. EVER. THE RAPIST IS 100% AT FAULT. I don't know how many times I have to say it before you get it.

Idea 2: THERE ARE THINGS WOMEN CAN DO TO MAKE THEMSELVES SAFER. TO IGNORE THAT JUST TO MAKE A POINT IS STUPID AND DANGEROUS. THIS IS NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH IDEA 1.

Idea 3: I think that iman or whatever is a looney. I'm getting an unfavorable impression of you as well. You seem to take special pleasure in twisting my words and I don't understand why.

 

[Chukcha]

I recon, they should do the voting in Australia, seriously.
Make an official vote "do you want the Sheik to stay or not?" I don't even want to guess what will the outcome be, I know already.

 

[northstar]

By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 23, 2003


"For almost a year," observes Edward Said in this week’s edition of Cairo’s
Al-Ahram Weekly, "American politicians, regional experts, administration officials, journalists have repeated the charges that have become standard fare so far as Islam and the Arabs are concerned. . . . To today’s practically unanimous chorus has been added the authority of the United Nation’s Human Development Report on the Arab world which certified that Arabs dramatically lag behind the rest of the world in democracy, knowledge, and women’s rights."

Said has no more patience for this sort of thing than he did when he wrote Orientalism and Covering Islam, the twin towers of today’s academic Islamophilia. He acidly dismisses the criticisms as "vague re-cycled Orientalist clichés of the kind repeated by a tireless mediocrity like Bernard Lewis."

Yet just as Said’s lament appeared, the French businesswoman Touria Tiouli went to court in the United Arab Emirates. Heedlessly risking the recycling of vague Orientalist clichés, Dubai officials have turned her charge that she was raped by three men on its head and accused her of zina, sexual activity outside marriage. In Dubai, a bastion of moderate Islam, this charge isn’t punishable by stoning, as it is in more hard-line Muslim countries — it only carries an 18-month jail sentence.

Tiouli continues to fight: on Sunday she entered a not guilty plea. To the claims of her attackers that she was a willing participant and, in fact, a prostitute whom they duly paid, she replied simply, "My lawyer will prove I did not consent. If I had consented, I would not have brought the case."

Indeed, it’s hard to imagine a prostitute in Dubai going to the police willingly under any circumstances. For Sharia courts all over the Islamic world seem only too willing to reinforce the stereotypes of Islam that Said deplores, particularly where women are concerned. In Nigeria, a woman named Sufiyatu Huseini suffered through circumstances remarkably similar to Tiouli’s. She said she was raped, but the man she accused denied it, and instead Huseini was charged with adultery.

Nigeria is no moderate Dubai: Huseini faced death by stoning until the verdict was overturned under international pressure. Countless other women in similar situations have already been stoned to death or jailed. According to Sisters in Islam, a Malaysian advocacy group for Muslim women, in Pakistan "three out of four women in prison . . . are rape victims."

This blame-the-victim mentality should be the worst nightmare of American feminists, were it not for the fact that they view it through rosy multiculturalist glasses. But does it really represent the hijacking of the Religion of Peace on a grand scale?

Not quite. These cases all unfolded according to the classic directives of the Sharia.

Traditional Islamic law, which is still very much in force in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, most (if not all) of post-Taliban Afghanistan, and elsewhere, completely disregards the testimony of women in cases of a sexual nature. Aside from physical evidence, the only way to establish rape is by the testimony of four male witnesses (who, by the way, must be Muslims in good standing) who actually saw the act itself. Without these witnesses and a confession from the accused rapist, the victim will stand condemned by her very accusation: she wasn’t raped, so she must be guilty of zina.

Moreover, the prosecution has been careful to point out that Tiouli didn’t call for help. "According to Islamic Sharia," says the Nigerian Imam Mallam Muhammad Sani Isa, "it cannot be considered rape unless you asked for help."

According to Aliyu Abubakar Sanyinna, the attorney general of Nigeria’s Zamfara state (where Huseini went through her ordeal), this codified miscarriage of justice is "the law of Allah. By executing anybody that is convicted under Islamic law, we are just complying with the laws of Allah, so we don’t have anything to worry about."

If like minds prevail next week in Dubai when the court issues a verdict in Tiouli’s case, she should resign herself to spending the next eighteen months behind bars.

There is yet hope. International indignation resulted in the overturning of Huseini’s death sentence and the commutation of a similar ruling against an 18-year-old Christian girl in Sudan, Abok Alfa Akok, to 75 lashes. Facing another worldwide outcry, the Nigerian government promised in October to end stonings for adultery. Also bowing to internal and external pressure, even the Islamic Republic of Iran declared early this year that it too was ending the practice.

All this is good, but it isn’t enough. Rape victims in these newly enlightened nations may not have to fear stoning but they still may face lighter sentences, as does Tiouli. They will continue to receive no sympathy for their ordeal or any honest investigation of the charges they have made.

Until the Sharia itself undergoes a thoroughgoing reevaluation, this is probably the best we can hope for.

Thus — however much Edward Said and his ilk may gnash their teeth — those who traffic in "vague re-cycled Orientalist clichés" about women’s rights in the Islamic world must keep up the pressure.

source-
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5676

Avery enlightening article about women rights and what to expect from this med-evil brutal mentality...

 

[Curiosity]

Northstar

I appreciate what you are feeling "unfinished" with - because there is only one victim in a rape and that is the person who was raped.

There is nothing leading up to an invitation for rape except in a rapist's mind. No matter if there are a group of women, or a single woman out for an evening on her own, or a woman coming home from a night shift job in a family neighborhood, or a grandmother going home from looking after her grandkids for their parents for an evening or an innocent in a social situation who trusts her drink has exactly what she ordered and no pharmaceuticals have been added.

No dress, no age, no particular locale, certainly not the victim's presentation..... none of these factor into the rapist's psyche.....

If the hunt is even more complicated, and the rapist has escalated, it becomes a more inviting situation for the impending need of violence and overpowering and damaging.

There is only perp - and it has nothing to do with the victim at all. The victim is the recepticle, the weaker, the claimed, the soiled, the punished, or whatever negative you want to put on it..... for that is where the rapist lives....