North Korea's Bomb

CHUCKMAN

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Jan 20, 2006
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October 12, 2006
NORTH KOREA'S BOMB
John Chuckman

You might think from all the political noise that something extraordinary happened when North Korea conducted an underground nuclear explosion. But let's put the test, apparently a small-yield, inefficient device, into some perspective.
The United States has conducted 1,127 nuclear and thermonuclear tests, including 217 in the atmosphere. The Soviet Union/ Russia conducted 969 tests, including 219 in the atmosphere. France, 210, including 50 in the atmosphere. The United Kingdom, 45, with 21 in the atmosphere. China, 45, with 23 in the atmosphere. India and Pakistan, 13, all underground. South Africa (and/or Israel) one atmospheric test in 1979.
From a purely statistical point of view, North Korea's test does seem a rather small event. You must add the fact that my title, North Korea's Bomb, is aimed at being pithy and is thereby unavoidably inaccurate. Having a nuclear device is not the same thing as having a bomb or warhead, much less a compact and efficient bomb or warhead. North Korea still has a long way to go.
But North Korea's test is magnified in its effect by several circumstances. First, war in the Korean peninsula has never formally ended, and American troops might well be vulnerable to even a school bus with a nuclear device. Just that thought is probably horrifying to many Americans who are not used to being challenged abroad, but I'm sure North Korea has already been warned that that would constitute national suicide.
Two, the test comes when Bush has been exploring military means to end Iran's work with nuclear upgrading technology. There is no proof that Iran intends to create nuclear weapons, but, being realistic, I think we have to say it's likely. Iran faces nuclear-armed countries, hostile to its interests, in several directions. Security of its people is an important obligation of any state.
I doubt Bush intends invading Iran - invasion's extreme advocates, neo-con storm troopers like David Frum and Richard Perle having proved totally wrong about Iraq - but that doesn't exclude some form of air attack. Iran has deeply buried its production sites, so the usual American bombers and cruise missiles will be ineffective. There has been talk of using tactical nuclear warheads, but I think there would be overwhelming world revulsion to this. The Pentagon may be considering non-nuclear ICBMs, there having been talk of arming a portion of the American fleet with non-nuclear warheads to exploit the accuracy and momentum of their thousands-of-miles-an-hour strikes for deep penetration. But Russia's missile forces are on hair-trigger alert against the launch of any American ICBM, and the time for confirming error with shorter-range sea-launched missiles is almost nonexistent.
Bombardment of Iran may now be more questionable, something we may regard as a good outcome of the North Korean test. How do you justify an attack to prevent the development of nuclear weapons in one country when you have done nothing of the kind in another that actually has them? This is even more true because Iran, while not Arabic, is Islamic, and public relations for America in the Islamic world already are terrible.
Third, what many analysts fear most from North Korea is its selling weapons or technology to terrorists. North Korea sells a good deal of its limited military technology to others, although this does not make the country in any way special, the world's largest arms trafficker by far being the United States. Many would argue that American weapons have supported terror, those used in Beirut, for example, ghastly flesh-mangling cluster bombs dropped on civilians. The answer to this fear about North Korea brings us to the simple human matter of talking. The U.S. must give up its arrogant, long-held attitude against talking and dealing with North Korea, for here it is certainly working against its own vital interests.
It is an interesting sidelight on North Korea's test that at least portions of its technology came from A. Q. Kahn's under-the-table operations in Pakistan, America's great ally in its pointless war on terror. Perhaps Kim Jong Il should volunteer troops for Iraq. This would undoubtedly change America's view of him dramatically. Cooperation won a lot of benefits for the dictatorship in Pakistan regarded by America as a rogue nuclear state just a few years ago.
All completely rational people wish that nuclear weapons did not exist, but wishing is a fool's game.
Efforts for general nuclear disarmament are almost certainly doomed to failure at this stage of human history. Why would any of the nuclear powers give up these weapons? They magnify the influence and prestige of the nations that have them. And why should other nations, facing both the immense power of the United States and its often-bullying tactics, give up obtaining them? Moreover, technology in any field improves and comes down in cost over time, and it will undoubtedly prove so with making nuclear weapons.
The entire Western world has conspired to remain silent on Israel's nuclear arms, even when Israel assisted apartheid South Africa to build a nuclear weapon. If nuclear weapons are foolish and useless, why does little Israel possess them? Why did South Africa want them? Why did the Soviet Union, despite a great depression and horrible impoverishment after the collapse of communism, keep its costly nuclear arsenal?
If Western nations can understand the dark fear that drives Israel, why can they not understand the same thing for North Korea? The United States has refused for years to talk and has threatened and punished North Korea in countless ways. When the U.S., under Clinton, did agree to peaceful incentives for North Korea to abandon its nuclear work, it later failed utterly to keep its word.
Bush has treated the North Koreans with the same dismissive contempt and threatening attitude he has so many others. How on earth was this approach ever to achieve anything other than what it now has produced?
We keep hearing that North Korea is irrational and unstable, but I think these descriptions are inaccurate. A regime that has lasted for more than half a century can be called many things, but not unstable. Soviet-style regimes were very stable. It was when such governments attempted reforms and loosened their absolute hold on people's lives that they toppled, but there seems little likelihood of a Gorbachev assuming power in North Korea.
North Korea has done some bizarre things over the last fifty years, but I do not think a careful speaker would describe the nation as irrational. North Korea has been isolated and ignored by the United States. It is American policy that frequently has been irrational, Bush's mob having been especially thick in their behavior towards the country.
I may be exaggerating when I write of bizarre North Korean acts, for since World War II, what nation has done more bizarre, damaging things than the United States? Over forty years of costly hostility and terror against Cuba? The insane, pointless war in Vietnam? The insane, pointless invasion of Iraq?
Harsh sanctions against North Korea, already advocated by the emotionally-numb Bush, are a foolish response. North Korea's rulers would not suffer any more than did Saddam Hussein under American-imposed sanctions against Iraq after Desert Storm. Only ordinary people would be driven to misery and starvation, just as they were in Iraq where tens of thousands of innocents died.
How much easier and more productive just to talk.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Bravo

Excellent post

Your post very nicely puts the whole thing in perspective.

I doubt very much that the north Korean bomb, could be delivered in much less than a good sized truck, or a cargo ship. I have read Americans on other forums bemoaning the very idea that North Korea could build a nuclear bomb to threaten other countries. None of them even mention the two million North Korean civilians killed by American bombs in that little "Police Action", back in the fifties.

Anyway....Nice going.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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That article misses the whole point concerning North Korea.

It seeks to diminish the problem in North Korea.

Paint all those who are concerned over North Korea as jingoists, extremists, hypocrites.

You wonder why Japan is upset by it ? Or why you see South Koreans burning effigies of Kim ?


The whole point that North Korea has too little power to threaten anyone is NOT THE ISSUE.

Never was.

That regime shows a past history of using its nuclear weapon know-how as an export product.

Especially in a day when such product can be sold to well-financed individuals ----- a threat
far worse than selling it to a nation-state.

Think aboudit.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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That article misses the whole point concerning North Korea.

It seeks to diminish the problem in North Korea.

Paint all those who are concerned over North Korea as jingoists, extremists, hypocrites.

You wonder why Japan is upset by it ? Or why you see South Koreans burning effigies of Kim ?


The whole point that North Korea has too little power to threaten anyone is NOT THE ISSUE.

Never was.

That regime shows a past history of using its nuclear weapon know-how as an export product.

Especially in a day when such product can be sold to well-financed individuals ----- a threat
far worse than selling it to a nation-state.

Think aboudit.

Jim

You yell about everyone missing the point but you miss everyone else's point. Korea has a bomb. It had to happen some day. My son is a physicist and he tells me that, given the materials and a good machine shop, he could build a bomb in a month. I'm sure there are enough physicists in North Korea to build a bomb. I'm amazed that somebody hasn't delivered a bomb somewhere by container ship by now. The question is; can they build a bomb that can be delivered by a glorified SKUD missile? I don't think so. Chuckman mentioned a nuke in a school bus. That is horrifying to be sure. I would be much happier if they didn't have any kind of bomb, but that genie is out of the bottle. What do we do? Nuke North Korea before they can use it anywhere? The U.S. is calling for sanctions. I don't see what good sanctions will do, but increase support for Kim Jong(or whatever his name is)
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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California
I have a brilliant idea!!!

Let's ask Canada to make the decision regarding N. Korea.

Rather than condemnation and criticism - let's hear your solutions if you are up for it.

This old game of giving the U.S. hell because they are automatically "expected" to take care of the situation is pure fantasy - and it is about time some of you should put your ideas forth instead of wasting all your space.

Oh and the "talking" Chuckie was so eager to take issue with was proposed by the U.N. and Japan. Chuckie get your facts straight - the U.S. has been feeding North Korea for decades and the leaders take the food and give it to the military instead of spreading among the population. If you don't know what you are talking about .... do some research.
 
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cortex

Electoral Member
Aug 3, 2006
418
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hopelessly entagled
I on behalf of the canadian people decide to forge an alliance with the righteous nation of NK and through mutual cooperation embark on a program to arm the developing nations of the world with nuclear weapons such that they may defend themselves against anglo fascist america.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
I have a brilliant idea!!!

Let's ask Canada to make the decision regarding N. Korea.

Rather than condemnation and criticism - let's hear your solutions if you are up for it.

This old game of giving the U.S. hell because they are automatically "expected" to take care of the situation is pure fantasy - and it is about time some of you should put your ideas forth instead of wasting all your space.

Oh and the "talking" Chuckie was so eager to take issue with was proposed by the U.N. and Japan. Chuckie get your facts straight - the U.S. has been feeding North Korea for decades and the leaders take the food and give it to the military instead of spreading among the population. If you don't know what you are talking about .... do some research.


I actually mean this, in all sincerity.

1, because the leader of NK is a certifiable loon.

2, because, there is the serious potential to export technology that can be strapped to a "glorified" SKUD missile and unleashed on innocent civilians or any Nationality.

Here is what should be done, and yes I realize how yahoo'ish and simplistic this will sound, but,,,

Scramble the SAC bombers, I'm tired of my old friend in Alaska complaining about them big Stratofortress's killing his meat for no reason, fillem with as much conventional ordinance as mechanically possible and carpet bomb NK back into the stone age. That's a pre-emptive strategy

Silly, but effective.
 
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Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
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Cotex wrote: Ah yes moyer-the american apologist, As nonsensical and boring as ever.

I'll take Jim's views over a Commies anyday, how is your hero doing with all the protesting against him going Cotex? Free Buckets of oil isn't that popular anymore is it? Or should I say buckets of oil and sand covered in oil? Can the poor refine their oil?
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
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Toronto
I on behalf of the canadian people decide to forge an alliance with the righteous nation of NK and through mutual cooperation embark on a program to arm the developing nations of the world with nuclear weapons such that they may defend themselves against anglo fascist america.

You do not speak on behalf of Canadians, lets get that straight.

How would you address NK arming it self with nukes to South Korea and Japan? Let me guess, because they are US allies, that makes them scum and worthy of nuke targets from NK?

When I read posts from people such as your self, it makes me sick. Do you self a favour and impale your self on your favorite dictator.
 

MattUK

Electoral Member
Aug 11, 2006
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UK
I still dont have too much of a problem with Kim having the bomb, or the technology. As someone mentioned earlier, there are thousands of physicists in this world that could make one given the right equipment - what stops Bin Laden from employing a few of those? You cant tell me none are Muslims? So stuff them selling it to others, it may shorten the time it takes for a terrorist to get the technology, but Kim will not be the sole reason they get it.

I agree that Kim can look like a bit of a loony at times. In fact, I dont really agree with many things that he has to say. But, I think there is a difference between being a loony and down right stupid. Who's he going to Nuke? I mean, really think about this. South Korea? Japan? China? Nope. None of them. Just because he is not that stupid. Three seconds after launching a Nuke anywhere, America and Russia would be sending about 50 nukes straight back at them. Does Kim want to die? I dont think so.

Can we stop him developing through sanctions against NK? No. Thats simple. The sanctions do not affect Kim, his advisors, or his physicists. They will still be fed, clothed and watered. Sanctions will only make the lives of the general people much much worse, and he does not care about these people. How many more deaths will come from sanctions? Who knows. But will the west hold their hands up and admit they were ultimately responsible by reacting in the wrong way and depriving the poor of food and heat? No.

So lets talk to them. We now have a perfect chance to try and make them come over to our side. Not to be best buddies, but a relationship that is not built on tension. One where we can send diplomats to find out whats happening, to monitor their progress. Hell, we could even send them some advisors every now and then to make sure that they are doing things correctly and that they are not about to blow a nuclear reactor size hole into the crust of the Earth.

We can make sure that they dont sell to terrorists. I am not asking us to give everything to them with nothing in return. It needs to be a two way street.

You have to keep your friends close, but a possible enemy with a dangerous weapon? Definatley keep them closer.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
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Eastern Ontario
North korean nut buckets

http://www.korea-dpr.com/

I was looking for info on North Korea when I came across their offical web site....Strange from a country that doesn't allow the internet!!

But have a look, not only have they set up a closed twisted society...They have their people believe it. The tell you it is the U.S. that pervents the 2 Koreas to be one and everything is the U.S imperialists fault....

And some think we should negoiate in this enviroment???
 

MattUK

Electoral Member
Aug 11, 2006
119
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UK
Yes, I still think we should negotiate.

Negotiating then eliminates that argument. It shows that its NK that are the bad guys. Force alone does nothing but strengthen their argument in the eyes of the normal people of NK.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
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Eastern Ontario
Negotiating??

Negotiating is not the way.... I am not war monger, but brinkmanship is the game N. Korea plays. They expect to rattle a saber and have everyone jump to the table. They will continue this game until it doesn't work anymore.

My biggest concern is no North Korea itself, but that they have sold all of their weapon technology in the past..have to feed themselves with something! Who will be buying the bomb from them??
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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I'm sure Iraq is happy that Korea sold them the SKUD missile. Imagine putting a nuclear warhead on a skud missile. It would likely be more dangerous to the country firing the missile. The only thing that missile is guaranteed to hit, is the ground, somewhere. Korean weapons technology, up to now, has been a joke.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
up to now ..is the problem....What happens when no one does anything while N. Korea gets better at weapons tech?

Hell even China is upset over this situation
 

MattUK

Electoral Member
Aug 11, 2006
119
0
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UK
"My biggest concern is no North Korea itself, but that they have sold all of their weapon technology in the past..have to feed themselves with something! Who will be buying the bomb from them??"

Did I not cover that in my previous post? The more we push Kim and his administration away now, the more likely they are to sell these weapons to the haters of the west. Is that what you are actually pushing for?

I dare bush, blair or any other world leader to start an agrument with Kim - lets see how long it is before his loony head comes up with the idea of selling the Nuke to OBLaden to help him blow up the states.

Great call.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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http://www.korea-dpr.com/

I was looking for info on North Korea when I came across their offical web site....Strange from a country that doesn't allow the internet!!

But have a look, not only have they set up a closed twisted society...They have their people believe it. The tell you it is the U.S. that pervents the 2 Koreas to be one and everything is the U.S imperialists fault....

And some think we should negoiate in this enviroment???

That website, like North Korea, is a bitter, twisted, joke. It attempts to show North Korea as a "success" when just the opposite is the reality. The website doesn't mention that their military dictatorship has it's foot firmly on the neck of the people, who are, for the most part, barely existing, even starving. If there ever was a case for regime change, N. Korea is it.

I've done a bit of reading about North Korea and I wouldn't negotiate. The UN should demand the destruction of all nuclear programs, and if their answer is not satisfactory, bomb all their nuclear facilities, then march in and find anything that is left.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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And the 11+ million south korean dead in the first half an hour will thank you for your opinion.

Thats the nature of a hostage negotiation..if they had no hostages they would gone already.