#31
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 6th, 2006
A C-note as opposed to an F# ?
2402 others browsing the Canadian Forums! Join us!Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
#32
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 6th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDB
Amnesty International is objective. What they said about Hezbollah is correct. This organization committed a war crime because it deliberately attacked civilians.So why aren't there British American and Canadian troops in Israel and Lebanon, a peace-making contingent to bring stability to that region instead of of Canadian troops sitting in Afghanistan being targetted by American air force fighters and bomber crews?
If you don't know the answer I'll be happy to oblige...
Israel is also guilty of committing war crimes.
Its hard to say which side started it. The fighting has been going on for decades. It is already a global conflict.
Canada should try to remain as objective and impartial as Amnesty International. If we choose sides, we would also commit war crimes.
#33
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 6th, 2006
Another excellent reason why our troops shouldn't be in Afghanistan!
And probably another excellent reason why our troops and American troops and British troops should be in Israel.
And probably another excellent reason why our troops and American troops and British troops should be in Israel.
#34
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 6th, 2006
I haven't heard nor to be honest, made the effort to research the entire Rwanda mess, but what was Amnesty International's perspective and recomendations regarding tens of thousands dying daily by the hand of violence?
You've satisfied me already that you're well acquainted with the Palestinian/Israeli infections but could you shed some light on when and under what circumstances it becomes apparent that the combatants in a civil struggle are inflicting unnecessarily grievous injury and mayhem upon each other and are completely and totally unable to resolve thier issues peacefully....and it is appropriate to intervene...or is it ever..let's ask Uncle Sam....
You've satisfied me already that you're well acquainted with the Palestinian/Israeli infections but could you shed some light on when and under what circumstances it becomes apparent that the combatants in a civil struggle are inflicting unnecessarily grievous injury and mayhem upon each other and are completely and totally unable to resolve thier issues peacefully....and it is appropriate to intervene...or is it ever..let's ask Uncle Sam....
Conservative
#35
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
A reasonable aproach in many ways. I find myself wanting to agree.Amnesty International is objective. What they said about Hezbollah is correct. This organization committed a war crime because it deliberately attacked civilians.
Israel is also guilty of committing war crimes.
Its hard to say which side started it. The fighting has been going on for decades. It is already a global conflict.
Canada should try to remain as objective and impartial as Amnesty International. If we choose sides, we would also commit war crimes.
Then I remember that Israel is a western democracy surrounded by lunatics who would be happiest if they got to butcher every Jew on the face of the Earth............
Then I'm willing to cut them A LOT of slack.
Conservative
#36
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDB
Now, Mikey, IMHO this is just silly.Another excellent reason why our troops shouldn't be in Afghanistan!
And probably another excellent reason why our troops and American troops and British troops should be in Israel.
Folks from Afghanistan ATTACKED us.
Israel has not.
Afghanistan was a nation that publically stoned women to death for appearing in public without a proper escort.
Israel is a modern democracy.
Israel was ATTACKED by folks living in a nation officially at war with Israel since 1948.
If you can't see the difference........
#37
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006
Amnesty International re 1994 Rwanda
--
Its not true that all Muslims want to slaughter all Jews.
--
What they want most is justice and emancipation. Many, Palestinians for example, have neither. We have been misinformed about what are governments do in predominately Muslim/Arab countries, why these people are angry with us and what they want.
To some degree their suffering is a result of our governments interference in their affairs. To some degree their anger at us is justified. 9/11 was a consequence, not a random event.
--
Its not true that all Muslims want to slaughter all Jews.
--
What they want most is justice and emancipation. Many, Palestinians for example, have neither. We have been misinformed about what are governments do in predominately Muslim/Arab countries, why these people are angry with us and what they want.
To some degree their suffering is a result of our governments interference in their affairs. To some degree their anger at us is justified. 9/11 was a consequence, not a random event.
Quote:
STATE OF ISRAEL
Overview - Covering events from January - December 2005
--
Conservative
#38
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006
Absolutely not all Muslims want to kill all Jews. That I know.
However, Hezbollah wants to kill all Jews. Their leader has said so.
The government controled press of Saudi Arabi and Egypt have both printed the "blood libel" at Passover, and printed it as truth as recently as 2004. The blood libel is the ancient belief that Jews use the blood of gentile children to make their unleavened bread........and kidnap and murder the children to do so. This has been the excuse for many a pogrom in Medieval Europe.........
Iran is led by a lunatic anti-Semitic Holocaust denier.
A LOT of Muslims would like to kill all the Jews........
However, Hezbollah wants to kill all Jews. Their leader has said so.
The government controled press of Saudi Arabi and Egypt have both printed the "blood libel" at Passover, and printed it as truth as recently as 2004. The blood libel is the ancient belief that Jews use the blood of gentile children to make their unleavened bread........and kidnap and murder the children to do so. This has been the excuse for many a pogrom in Medieval Europe.........
Iran is led by a lunatic anti-Semitic Holocaust denier.
A LOT of Muslims would like to kill all the Jews........
#39
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006
It's never been the case throughout human history that the victor glorifies the conquered. Because the victor writes history and because the strong prevail, the only "truth" ever expressed is the version of "truth" in support of anything the strong may have done on their way to dominance. To imagine that a hatred of the west or for Christianity or as GWB put it... "they hate us for our our freedom" arises spontaneously is completely irrational. To believe that seventy or eighty men women and children were necessarily murdered when an entire spectrum of alternatives was available (Branch Davidian massacre) was in fact so irrational that Timothy McVeigh declared war on a government that had demonstrated yet again that it was being led by men without conscience, men who prize wealth and power before human life and even before self-preservation. The U.S.government has repeatedly included the execution of innocent people including women and children on the streets of its cities however this is never described as oppression or terrorism. When the same behaviour is demonstrated on the streets of any city in the Middle East except Jerusalem of course it is called terrorism.
It all depends who's reading the news and of course who wrote the news being read.
It all depends who's reading the news and of course who wrote the news being read.
#40
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006
Well they have their propaganda, we have ours.
Is Iran's leader an anti-Semitc Holocaust denier or is he more than this two dimensional caricature?
Instead of having an opinion based on someone's else's opinion of what Ahmadinejad supposedly said, why not read his own words:
Is Iran's leader an anti-Semitc Holocaust denier or is he more than this two dimensional caricature?
Instead of having an opinion based on someone's else's opinion of what Ahmadinejad supposedly said, why not read his own words:
Quote:
In this interview Ahmadinejad answers questions related to his "alleged" call to wipe Israel off the map:Quote has been trimmed
The letter was submitted to President Bush on Monday, May 9, 2006 via the Swiss embassy in Tehran, which takes care of the US interest section in Iran and acts as a liason between the two countries.
The following is the full text of President Ahmadinejad's letter to President George Bush:
In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,
Mr George Bush,
President of the United States of America,
For sometime now I have been thinking, how one can justify the undeniable contradictions that exist in the international arena -- which are being constantly debated, especially in political forums and amongst university students. Many questions remain unanswered. These have prompted me to discuss some of the contradictions and questions, in the hope that it might bring about an opportunity to redress them.
Can one be a follower of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the great Messenger of God, feel obliged to respect human rights, present liberalism as a civilization model, announce one’s opposition to the proliferation of nuclear weapons and WMDs, make “War on Terror” his slogan, and finally, work towards the establishment of a unified international community – a community which Christ and the virtuous of the Earth will one day govern, but at the same time, have countries attacked. The lives, reputations and possessions of people destroyed and on the slight chance of the presence of a few criminals in a village, city, or...
Quote:
...
QUESTION: Your Excellency, I'm not a speaker of Farsi, but there is a debate going on as to what exactly you said at the conference on the World Without Zionism.
Did you say that Israel as a state should be wiped off the map or did you say something else? Could you just please specify this, because there is this debate going on?
And if you said Israel should be wiped off the map, that's very scary. If you said something else perhaps less alarming; perhaps you could tell us.
AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): It's quite interesting. I mean, it seems to me that there's a strong Zionist lobby. And it seems to me that I face this question wherever I go. And I have always been ready to answer.
I am not saying that you are a Zionist lobbyist, sir. I'm just saying that wherever I go I face questions like this.
But I'd like to say...
--
#41
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 7th, 2006
Sounds very similar to things I've been saying for decades. I had the pleasant opportunity at one time of being asked by an Iranian family here in Canada to teach computer skills to both mom and dad as well as the youngsters. It was a wonderful time spending evenings with that family and what resonated more than anything was the palpable sense of respect and humility each shared with eveyone around them.
Never felt that way when I taught in the U.S.!
Never felt that way when I taught in the U.S.!
No Party Affiliation
#42
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
"Folks from Afghanistan ATTACKED us.
Israel has not.
Afghanistan was a nation that publically stoned women to death for appearing in public without a proper escort.
Israel is a modern democracy.
Israel was ATTACKED by folks living in a nation officially at war with Israel since 1948."
1) Afghanistan did not attack any foreign nations. In case you are referring to 9/11 you will not find any Afghani names on the roster of alleged attackers. Instead, you will find Saudis.
2) Public stoning was done to convicted criminals, not to public walkers most of whom were just housewives go shopping to feed their families.
3) Israel is a racist society and one tenth of its population has fled it and now lives in NYC's metro area. More of its people live in Florida and California.
4) Israel attacked Lebanon as previously shown on this forum several dozen times.
Israel has not.
Afghanistan was a nation that publically stoned women to death for appearing in public without a proper escort.
Israel is a modern democracy.
Israel was ATTACKED by folks living in a nation officially at war with Israel since 1948."
1) Afghanistan did not attack any foreign nations. In case you are referring to 9/11 you will not find any Afghani names on the roster of alleged attackers. Instead, you will find Saudis.
2) Public stoning was done to convicted criminals, not to public walkers most of whom were just housewives go shopping to feed their families.
3) Israel is a racist society and one tenth of its population has fled it and now lives in NYC's metro area. More of its people live in Florida and California.
4) Israel attacked Lebanon as previously shown on this forum several dozen times.
No Party Affiliation
#43
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
All throughout the Internet there are reports of paid Israeli lobbyists repeatedly posting the same lies over and over again in web forums such as this one. From the evidence that we see on this forum of repeated threads on the same topic that have been repeatedly refuted, there can be no doubt that this is true.
#44
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by gopher
The United States supports Israel to the tune of about $5B US in military and economic aid each year. That Israel doesn't bite the hand that feeds it, proves nothing about whether Israel is on our side or its goal to cleanse ethnically Palestine of non-Jews is just."Folks from Afghanistan ATTACKED us.
Israel has not.
Afghanistan was a nation that publically stoned women to death for appearing in public without a proper escort.
Israel is a modern democracy.
Israel was ATTACKED by folks living in a nation officially at war with Israel since 1948."
1) Afghanistan did not attack any foreign nations. In case you are referring to 9/11 you will not find any Afghani names on the roster of alleged attackers. Instead, you will find Saudis.
2) Public stoning was done to convicted criminals, not to public walkers most of whom were just housewives go shopping to feed their families.
3) Israel is a racist society and one tenth of its population has fled it and now lives in NYC's metro area. More of its people live in Florida and California.
4) Israel attacked Lebanon as previously shown on this forum several dozen times.
It is not our place to tell people in other countries how they should live. But we do have a right to be left in peace as long as we let them live in peace. Overall, we have have violated that principle far more often than the other way around.
Conservative
#45
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by gopher
PLEASE, adjust your tinfoil hat.....message arriving from the Big Giant Head.......All throughout the Internet there are reports of paid Israeli lobbyists repeatedly posting the same lies over and over again in web forums such as this one. From the evidence that we see on this forum of repeated threads on the same topic that have been repeatedly refuted, there can be no doubt that this is true.
Conservative
#46
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by gopher
1. READ the post. I didn't say Afghanistan attacked us, I said FOLKS FROM AFGHANISTAN attacked us. Just the same they were encouraged, supported and protected by the government of Afghanistan, leaving us no choice but to kick their ass."Folks from Afghanistan ATTACKED us.
Israel has not.
Afghanistan was a nation that publically stoned women to death for appearing in public without a proper escort.
Israel is a modern democracy.
Israel was ATTACKED by folks living in a nation officially at war with Israel since 1948."
1) Afghanistan did not attack any foreign nations. In case you are referring to 9/11 you will not find any Afghani names on the roster of alleged attackers. Instead, you will find Saudis.
2) Public stoning was done to convicted criminals, not to public walkers most of whom were just housewives go shopping to feed their families.
3) Israel is a racist society and one tenth of its population has fled it and now lives in NYC's metro area. More of its people live in Florida and California.
4) Israel attacked Lebanon as previously shown on this forum several dozen times.
2. Baloney. You have NO idea what you are talking about (no surprise there) Afghan widows without brothers or fathers to help them starved with their children because they could not appear on the streets.
3. Yes Israel is a racist society, as is Canada................Israel has the sense to prefer its majoruty, Jews......we are so stupid we give out special priviledges to minorities based on race, such as natives. BTW, there is no flood of Israeli Arabs to leave Israel, nor are they often involved in acts of terror against the Jewish population......Indeed, the real Arab men, the Bedou, fight for Israel. WHY? Because they are better off in Israel, both economically and politically, than they would be in Egypt, or Lebanon, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or even Jordan.
4. OF COURSE Israel attacked L:ebanon..........their soldiers were kidnapped by an organization determined to murder all the Jews on earth.......I think Lebanon got off rather easy.
#48
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
Colpy....
Isn't that gooey stuff you're using for logic similar to "Kill em all ...Let God sort em out..."
Isn't that gooey stuff you're using for logic similar to "Kill em all ...Let God sort em out..."
Conservative
#49
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDB
Somehow, MDB, I think your "Hear Hear" is in the wrong place! Hear Hear
Unless of course, you have been swayed by the overwhelming power of my rhetoric, and convinced to join the RIGHT side!
#50
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
Could be but there is a kind of logic at work here I'm trying to understand...
The way to peace is through killing as many people civilians military whoever....
Am I on the right track here Colpy?
The way to peace is through killing as many people civilians military whoever....
Am I on the right track here Colpy?
#51
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
It's nice to see the Liberal and NDP'ers on here rush to Hezbollah's defense and bash the evil Israel.
#52
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
Sure I'm happy to do what I can to bring a little smile to your face...
Let's talk about Manuel Noriega and his Alma Mater if you prefer...
It's only fair, America is footing the bill for what the IDF and ohters are doing in Israel it's entirely approprate that some attempt be made to legitimize those billions...
Let's talk about Manuel Noriega and his Alma Mater if you prefer...
It's only fair, America is footing the bill for what the IDF and ohters are doing in Israel it's entirely approprate that some attempt be made to legitimize those billions...
#53
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by I think not
Viva Hezbollah
• HEZBOLLAH ATTACKED PRIVATE CITIZENS & PROPERTY TARGET (APR. 7, 2005, ISRAEL)
• HEZBOLLAH ATTACKED EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS TARGET (MAR. 3, 2004, YEMEN)
• HEZBOLLAH ATTACKED PRIVATE CITIZENS & PROPERTY TARGET (AUG. 10, 2003, ISRAEL)
• Hezbollah fired anti aircraft shells in the vicinity of Birait in the western sector of the Lebanese border. (JAN. 6, 2003, ISRAEL)
• HEZBOLLAH ATTACKED houses belonging to senior members of the former Israeli-allied South Lebanon Army militia (AUG. 7, 2001, LEBANON)
• Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) and Hezbollah attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (Mar. 29, 1989, Belgium)
• Action Directe and Hezbollah attacked Business target (Apr. 13, 1985, France)
• Committee of Solidarity with Arab and Middle East Political Prisoners (CSPPA) and Hezbollah attacked Transportation target (Mar. 18, 1986, France)
• Hamas and Hezbollah attacked Military target (Mar. 21, 1991, Israel)
• Hezbollah and Islamic Movement for Change attacked Military target (June 25, 1996, Saudi Arabia)
• Hezbollah and Islamic Salvation Front attacked Airports & Airlines target (Aug. 26, 1992, Algeria)
• Hezbollah and Khaibar Brigades attacked Diplomatic target (Mar. 22, 1985, Lebanon)
• Hezbollah and Lebanese National Resistance Front attacked Military target (Mar. 10, 1985, Lebanon)
• Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Airports & Airlines target (Dec. 25, 1986, Iraq)
• Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Diplomatic target (Apr. 18, 1983, Lebanon)
• Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Diplomatic target (Jan. 5, 1989, Thailand)
• Hezbollah and Other Group attacked Military target (Apr. 12, 1985, Spain)
more
--
Not all of them, includes deads peoples, and hezbollah didnt claimed responsability of all those events, that is a fact.
No Party Affiliation
#54
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 8th, 2006
their soldiers were kidnapped by an organization determined to murder all the Jews on earth......
We have gone through this nonsense a hundred times - Israeli soldiers were captured in land that wasn't there. It was Israel who violated the blue line over two hundred times.
The Israeli lobby must be paying these liars a good sum of money to keep posting the same lies over and over again.
We have gone through this nonsense a hundred times - Israeli soldiers were captured in land that wasn't there. It was Israel who violated the blue line over two hundred times.
The Israeli lobby must be paying these liars a good sum of money to keep posting the same lies over and over again.
#55
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 9th, 2006
Since Lebanon and Israel are technically at war, and Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government... Hezbollah can legally target IDF soldiers without committing a war crime. IDF operations directed against Hezbollah targets ar also legal.
War crimes are committed when either side purposely attacks civilian targets. Both sides are guilty of this. But huge differences exist between Israel's and Hezbollah's war crimes.
Israel had been targetting Lebanese civilians for nearly two days before Hezbollah declared all out war and began targetting Israeli civilians. As in Israel's war crime was premeditated act. Hezbollah's war crime was a self defensive reaction to Israel's war crime. Once one side crosses the line and begins to target the other side's civilians, its an invitation to the other side to respond in kind.
Another difference is the scale. Israel's war crime killed 1187 civilians. Hezbollah's war crime in response to Israel's war crime killed 44 civilians. Israel's war crime destroyed billions in Lebanese civilian infrastructure. Hezbollah's war crime had almost no effect on civilian infrastructure.
Also a look at military casualties shows Hezbollah had a much better ratio of soldiers to civilian kill ratio indicating their main targets were military.
Hezbollah
119 IDF soldiers to 44 Israeli civilians or about 3 soldiers for every civilian.
IDF
74-700 Hezbollah soldiers to 1187 Lebanese civilians or 1.5-15 civilians killed for each Hezbollah soldier.
Only someone completely blind to the facts would equate these two war crimes as even or equal.
War crimes are committed when either side purposely attacks civilian targets. Both sides are guilty of this. But huge differences exist between Israel's and Hezbollah's war crimes.
Israel had been targetting Lebanese civilians for nearly two days before Hezbollah declared all out war and began targetting Israeli civilians. As in Israel's war crime was premeditated act. Hezbollah's war crime was a self defensive reaction to Israel's war crime. Once one side crosses the line and begins to target the other side's civilians, its an invitation to the other side to respond in kind.
Another difference is the scale. Israel's war crime killed 1187 civilians. Hezbollah's war crime in response to Israel's war crime killed 44 civilians. Israel's war crime destroyed billions in Lebanese civilian infrastructure. Hezbollah's war crime had almost no effect on civilian infrastructure.
Also a look at military casualties shows Hezbollah had a much better ratio of soldiers to civilian kill ratio indicating their main targets were military.
Hezbollah
119 IDF soldiers to 44 Israeli civilians or about 3 soldiers for every civilian.
IDF
74-700 Hezbollah soldiers to 1187 Lebanese civilians or 1.5-15 civilians killed for each Hezbollah soldier.
Only someone completely blind to the facts would equate these two war crimes as even or equal.
#56
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 9th, 2006
Another difference is the scale. Israel's war crime killed 1187 civilians. Hezbollah's war crime in response to Israel's war crime killed 44 civilians.
----------------------------------------------------earth_as_one---------------------------------------------------------
LOL !!
As if war should always be equal ?
If a midget kicks a giant in the shins, should the response be equal ???
Where's Shangra La ?
----------------------------------------------------earth_as_one---------------------------------------------------------
LOL !!
As if war should always be equal ?
If a midget kicks a giant in the shins, should the response be equal ???
Where's Shangra La ?
#57
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 9th, 2006
Jimmoyer
Greetings!
If you can get hold of a movie made at the request of Robert Strange McNamara titled "The Fog of War" you might consider how this hawk regards the fire-bombing and incineration of several hundred thousand Japanese. He freely admits that if Japan had won the war that both he and Curtis LeMay along with the president would and should stand trial for crimes against humanity. He's an advocate now (after the fact of course) for proportionality of response. Because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the infrantry war in the South Pacific weren't going well for the U.S., American bombers disgorged incendiary bombs on an infrastructure built nearly entirely of wood and burned every living man woman child and dog in several Japanses cities and industrial areas. All this of course before dropping two nuclear devices in what most historians today regard not as a necessity of fighting that war but the prelude to establishing the Cold War with Soviet Russia.
If you and your wife/friend or somone you care about is accosted on the street by a man threatening to kill you all...and there's the liklihood that harm is about to be done to you and those you love, would you hesitate to use any and every available means in protecting your family and yourself? Would you stop to evaluate the appropriateness of throwing gasoline followed by a match onto that person or using your automobile as a weapon?
Proportionality of response is a damn difficult thing to assess and in the modern era of purportedly highly accurate high altitude bombing, where air-crews and hardware are safe while dropping milllions of tons of ordianance....would it make sense to change that methodology and fly at five thousand feet?
Proportionality in our modern times is something we've been conditioned to reject. We are programmed to eat more, drink more, spend more, live life to the "max" and even if that means incurring credit debt that your children will have to pay for in the future, the biggest house, the flashiest car, the finest restauraunts all these demonstrations of wealth and power are the statements of disproportionality expected in our societies. While the fortunate spend vast amounts on pleasure seeking and accumulating "things", the less fortunate remainder fall further and further behind.
Greetings!
If you can get hold of a movie made at the request of Robert Strange McNamara titled "The Fog of War" you might consider how this hawk regards the fire-bombing and incineration of several hundred thousand Japanese. He freely admits that if Japan had won the war that both he and Curtis LeMay along with the president would and should stand trial for crimes against humanity. He's an advocate now (after the fact of course) for proportionality of response. Because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the infrantry war in the South Pacific weren't going well for the U.S., American bombers disgorged incendiary bombs on an infrastructure built nearly entirely of wood and burned every living man woman child and dog in several Japanses cities and industrial areas. All this of course before dropping two nuclear devices in what most historians today regard not as a necessity of fighting that war but the prelude to establishing the Cold War with Soviet Russia.
If you and your wife/friend or somone you care about is accosted on the street by a man threatening to kill you all...and there's the liklihood that harm is about to be done to you and those you love, would you hesitate to use any and every available means in protecting your family and yourself? Would you stop to evaluate the appropriateness of throwing gasoline followed by a match onto that person or using your automobile as a weapon?
Proportionality of response is a damn difficult thing to assess and in the modern era of purportedly highly accurate high altitude bombing, where air-crews and hardware are safe while dropping milllions of tons of ordianance....would it make sense to change that methodology and fly at five thousand feet?
Proportionality in our modern times is something we've been conditioned to reject. We are programmed to eat more, drink more, spend more, live life to the "max" and even if that means incurring credit debt that your children will have to pay for in the future, the biggest house, the flashiest car, the finest restauraunts all these demonstrations of wealth and power are the statements of disproportionality expected in our societies. While the fortunate spend vast amounts on pleasure seeking and accumulating "things", the less fortunate remainder fall further and further behind.
#58
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 9th, 2006
MikeyDB, proportional response is a new idea, seems even reasonable.
But it is the most unreasonable idea I've ever heard yet.
It seems stupid to suggest a Giant not smack the hell out of a midget after being
kicked in the shins.
And doesn't it seem stupid and dangerous of the midget to take that chance? And if that midget
is a provider to his family, doesn't his being disabled hurt the family, and did the midget factor that in?
Instead of blaming any disability on the Giant?
It seems stupid to suggest restraint against a manipulative provocateur ?
It seems stupid to suggest the victim make the perpertrator feel comfortable that any
response to his attack will be proportional and therefore predictable.
A little mystery is in order here.
Keep'em guessing.
You want "them" smug? You want "them" confident" ???
Then you want a proportional response that is a fake dance of predictable never-ending
stupidity.
In and of itself, such a request also creates a moral wrong by inviting more incidents,
because the response wasn't swift and brutal enough to be convincing.
But it is the most unreasonable idea I've ever heard yet.
It seems stupid to suggest a Giant not smack the hell out of a midget after being
kicked in the shins.
And doesn't it seem stupid and dangerous of the midget to take that chance? And if that midget
is a provider to his family, doesn't his being disabled hurt the family, and did the midget factor that in?
Instead of blaming any disability on the Giant?
It seems stupid to suggest restraint against a manipulative provocateur ?
It seems stupid to suggest the victim make the perpertrator feel comfortable that any
response to his attack will be proportional and therefore predictable.
A little mystery is in order here.
Keep'em guessing.
You want "them" smug? You want "them" confident" ???
Then you want a proportional response that is a fake dance of predictable never-ending
stupidity.
In and of itself, such a request also creates a moral wrong by inviting more incidents,
because the response wasn't swift and brutal enough to be convincing.
Last edited by jimmoyer; Oct 9th, 2006 at 10:54 AM..
#59
Re: Amnesty Finds Hizbullah Guilty of War Crimes.
Oct 9th, 2006
Then would you agree that a number of folk facing the most potent military machine ever created are simply "doing what they can" to strike back at the percieved menace when they hijack airliners and crash them into office towers?
Isn't it using your rubric, only "fitting" that asymetrical warfare proceeds not from the weaker to the stronger but from the stronger to the weaker? That faced with an enemy that can't be matched because a level playing field doesn't exist, that you use all means available to you to inflict as much harm and distress on the enemy that you can using what you have?
Does Jimmoyer believe that terrorism comitted by fanatics flying jets into the World Trade Center was the appropriate thing to do give the unrealistic notion of proportinality?
Isn't it using your rubric, only "fitting" that asymetrical warfare proceeds not from the weaker to the stronger but from the stronger to the weaker? That faced with an enemy that can't be matched because a level playing field doesn't exist, that you use all means available to you to inflict as much harm and distress on the enemy that you can using what you have?
Does Jimmoyer believe that terrorism comitted by fanatics flying jets into the World Trade Center was the appropriate thing to do give the unrealistic notion of proportinality?
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