Pope's speech stirs Muslim anger

[I think not]

Muslim religious leaders have accused Pope Benedict XVI of quoting anti-Islamic remarks during a speech at a German university this week.

Questioning the concept of holy war, he quoted a 14th-Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

A senior Pakistani Islamic scholar, Javed Ahmed Gamdi, said jihad was not about spreading Islam with the sword.

Turkey's top religious official asked for an apology for the "hostile" words.

In Indian-administered Kashmir, police seized copies of newspapers which reported the Pope's comments to prevent any tension.

A Vatican spokesman, Father Frederico Lombardi, said he did not believe the Pope's comments were meant as a harsh criticism of Islam.

'Abhorrent'

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born pontiff explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of Byzantine, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperors words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

The Pope is due to visit Turkey in November and the Turkish response was swift and strong, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford reports from Istanbul.

Religious leader Ali Badda Kolu said the Pope's comments represented what he called an "abhorrent, hostile and prejudiced point of view".

Whilst Muslims might express their criticism of Islam and of Christianity, he argued, they would never defame the Holy Bible or Jesus Christ.

He said he hoped the Pope's speech did not reflect "hatred in his heart" against Islam.

Many Turks see Benedict as a Turkophobe and commentators call his words just before the holy month of Ramadan "ill-timed and ill-conceived", our correspondent adds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5346480.stm

 

[earth_as_one]

Read the whole thing yourself.

Full text
Faith, reason and the university: memories and reflections

Following is the speech given by Pope Benedict XVI at the University of Regensburg in Germany on September 12

Friday September 15, 2006
Guardian Unlimited

...In the seventh conversation [text unclear] edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion".

According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war.

Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873277,00.html

I'm sorry but the Pope is fallible. Evil and inhuman weren't new back then. They are much older. So was spreading faith by the sword.

 

[tamarin]

I don't think we'll ever reconcile the two faiths. I'm not much interested in the pope issuing any apology. I just wish the Islamic world could clean up its own messes and stop whining. Any faith that, even in its most bizarre fringes, can nurture troubled youth to become suicide bombers has a helluva lot more apologies to give than receive.

 

[earth_as_one]

All religions have fanatics:

Anarchy in the name of God
The Oregonian, January 24, 1999
By Mark O'Keefe
Seated on a metal chair at a folding table with a chipped laminated top, Paul deParrie models his infamous trademark, the black beret. On this day, as on most others, deParrie takes on the image of darkness not, he says, for symbolic significance, but because "I look good in dark colors."
He sits there in a black T-shirt, black sweat pants, black sneakers and white socks, occasionally checking his black watch. Nearby, atop a bookshelf, is an inspirational print of a barefoot, white-robed Jesus kneeling and praying.

Softly and articulately -- with a few jokes sprinkled in -- deParrie explains how the Bible justifies the calculated killing of abortionists.

"It's not one of those pretty biblical mandates like love your neighbor as yourself," says deParrie, his green eyes shining with intensity above a ragged red beard. "But hell is not a pretty doctrine, either. There are lots of unpretty doctrines in the Bible. Yet if God wrote the Bible, I have to abide by it whether I like it or not."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/a-abortion/a-abortion5.html

Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India

GUWAHATI, India (AFP)

October 2, 2004

Some 44 people were killed and 118 wounded in three nearly simultaneous bomb blasts Saturday morning in Dimapur, Nagaland's commercial hub, in what a top official called the "worst ever terrorist strike" in the tiny state's history.

Gunmen in neighbouring Assam state later killed 15 villagers and injured a dozen more, police said.

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorists_kill_44.htm

Does that represent Christianity?

What do you really know about Islam?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: Pope's speech stirs M

A fair bit actually, Islam was created to reconcile the waring tribes of arabia, it was borne out of war, it would obviously have war-like features within it to keep it "popular" with the groups it initially targetted it at.

Islam means peace for sure, but who' s peace?, world peace?, I would suggest no, I would infact suggest this peace was aimed at these waring tribes, and has now been used..like Pax Romana, as a joining together of tribes against "outsiders", and putting to death by sword would seem to me to be a carry over from the old tribal days that has never been removed.

 

[Curiosity]

Islam may be preaching "peace" but it would seem to be "Peace Through Fear" when one sees how they operate when their "religion" is questioned.

Even the "misnamed moderate Islamists" remain silent while their maniac buddies destroy, main, bomb, kill, kidnap, over the slightest incidents.

It's ok for them to blast the leader of a major Christian religion, but they can't handle a few satirical cartoons about the Mullahs......

They are a cult based on an old religion which has been lost to the barbarians.

 

[Curiosity]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52004

FAITH UNDER FIRE
Convert from Islam to Christianity killed
Refused to join crowd chanting verses from Quran during lunar eclipse
Posted: September 16, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Michael Ireland

Somali Christian sources report Ali Mustaf Maka'il, a 22-year-old college student and cloth merchant who converted from Islam to Christianity 11 months ago, was shot and killed in the Manabolyo quarter of Mogadishu.

According to a report from the Barnabas Fund, quoting a Christian source inside Somalia, the gunman was loyal to the Union of Islamic Courts, the Islamist organization that took power in Mogadishu in early June and now controls much of southern Somalia.

The report states the gunman shot Ali in the back Sept. 7 after he refused to join a crowd chanting Quran verses in honor of the lunar eclipse. Solar and lunar eclipses are significant in Islam and are accompanied by special congregational prayers. The Union of Islamic Courts confiscated Ali's body for 24 hours before delivering it to the grieving family, the report said.

The Barnabas Fund comments: "It seems that under the new Islamist rulers, who include hard-line jihadi elements, the tragic history of persecution and martyrdom for Somalia's tiny Christian community is set to continue and most likely to worsen."

The group reports that in July there were unconfirmed reports three Christians had been shot and killed by Islamists as they returned home from a prayer meeting.

In October 2005, an evangelist and house church leader, Osman Sheik Ahmed, was shot dead by Islamist radicals, Barnabas said. Also, children of Christian Somali refugees in Kenya have been kidnapped by Muslim relatives and taken to Islamic institutions in Somalia for 'rehabilitation.'"

The Barnabas Fund pointed out the leader of the Union of Islamic Courts, Hassan Dahir Aweys, promised to implement Sharia, or Islamic law, in all areas he controls.

According to Sharia, the group explained, apostates – those who leave Islam for another religion – must be killed. Union of Islamic Court leaders even have threatened to kill as apostates Muslims who are lax in their prayers, claiming this is commanded by Sharia. Several Muslims have been flogged publicly for drug-related offences since the union took control.

The Barnabas Fund report states more then 99.5 percent of Somalis are Muslims and regard Christianity as a foreign religion of their historic enemies in Ethiopia and of their former colonial masters the Italians and the British.

It adds: "There is a long history of conflict between Muslim Somalis and Christian Ethiopians, so anti-Christian sentiment runs deep. Most Somalis take it for granted that a true Somali is a Muslim and converts to Christianity must be traitors. These prejudices, widely held by Muslim Somalis, seem to be used to justify violence against Christians, both indigenous and expatriate.

The group says the inherent hostility toward the West and Christians has risen since the U.S.-led military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq and the recent Israeli campaign against Hezbollah.

Right - so everything was jez fine before the military showed up? Right - if they don't obey - kill em? Then blame the military? Pffhhhtttt

 

[earth_as_one]

Some of you obviously missed my point that isolated stories have been used to paint Islam as a violent religion.

I have read the Qu'ran and found it to be about as violent and intolerant as the Old Testament. Both Christians and Muslims could focus on certain passages in their holy books to justify rape, torture and murder. Or they can focus on other passages which promote compassion, charity and tolerance.

Don't confuse culture with religion. For example the Qu'ran says people should dress modestly and not flaunt their wealth. For women that could be wearing a burka. For men, the same passage could mean wearing a thong with gold necklaces and rings. The behavior is a result culture not religion. A burka isn't that different than a habit.

Yet we have been conditioned to interpret one as a symbol of religious devotion and the other as symbol of religious oppression.

If you reduce the Old and New Testament and the Qu'ran down to their essential messages they say the same things.

Be honest and don't steal: material things, someone's life, someone's spouse, someone's dignity....

Too bad more Jews, Christians and Muslims don't follow the word of their good books more closely.

Most violence advocated in the Qu'ran has to do with protecting a Muslim's freedoms and liberating fellow Muslims from oppression and injustice. Muslims see different news stories than we do. They see non-Muslims coming into predominately Muslim lands and creating injustice and oppression. Their religion obligates them to resist hostile foreigners intent on oppressing or corrupting them. It goes as far as advocating violence in order to protect or liberate yourself or fellow Muslims.

However if a non-Muslim does not represent a threat, and chooses to peacefully coexist with Muslims, Muslims are obligated to respect that person's religious choice and protect them.

The Qu'ran is contradictory regarding religious tolerance. It takes a severe view on missionaries from other faiths purposely corrupting devout Muslims. At the same time, the Qu'ran defends a person's right to choose their faith freely. What Christians refer to as evangelizing is not allowed. But a person who hasn't committed themselves to Islam can approach a missionary and convert to that religion.

Muslims have to pay a religious tithe to the local mosque. Non-Muslims who benefit from Islam's laws and social welfare structure, must make a similar contribution to a charity of their choice for the benefit of the community. Churches and Synagogues are recognized as charities.

In theory Muslims should be respectful, tolerant, peaceful, compassionate, honest and charitable. Jihad refers to a Muslim's internal struggle to achieve these things.

All religions at one point or another have been used to promote intolerance and starting holy wars. If you want to trade religion based horror stories, I can reference "witches-burning", "the inquisition", "the crusades", "the conquistadors", "slavery", "the holocaust"....

Monotheisistic Judaism, Christianity and Islam all preach tolerance and peaceful coexistence. These religions all worship the same deity, by different names. Ultimately its the interpretation of religious ideas which leads to war or peace, not the religion itself.

By the way, I am more or less agnostic, but I tend to lean toward enlightened Buddhism. I believe in karma in this life, but not reincarnation.

 

[Curiosity]

earth

I thought nothing of Islam as a violent religion until I was educated on a forum in which a discussion of FGM took place.

I had never heard of it, and for months was fascinated by this new knowledge regarding what women endured at the hands of the males in Islamic "religious" society under the dictates of the Qur'an. It seemed (from my modern western view) an atrocity under the disguise of religion.
The treatment and abuse of women as animals.

I carried the burden of my newfound knowledge hoping one day it would be solved for the women - as the United Nations appeared to be working on women's rights in all nations of our world, in particular the females under the domination of Islam.

Then 9/11 happened and I knew no matter how you paint the old religion of Islam to what is now hiding behind it.... the cult of madmen..... I will never go back to believing there are pacific Islamic people in the majority - Islamic worship is a cult worship of cruelty and enslavement of the soul..not just women's bodies but of young men's minds.

Not even my Islamic friends (I only have four adults and seven young adults who I know personally so I am not an authority), but for me personally I am assured these people would not live in a country dominated by fanaticism
parading around as a religion. It is their primary reason for emigration to a democratic nation so their boys and girls could grow into "normalcy".

Comparisons with the Old Testament and the Qur'an are fair - perhaps even more if we include the many "books" which have been removed by Christians during the evolution into modern worship and biblical revision.

Had I as a child been ordered to study Leviticus, I would have thrown away the bible and become a non-believer or one of the newly formed "ist" groups (humanist, animist, etc.). Nevertheless Christianity has evolved into less violence as it practiced during the Crusades, and has systematically preached "love for thy brother" in the many offshoots of churches under the heading of Christian worship.

Religions have their good and bad points, but I have yet to know of any other religion than Islam who has exposed itself for the evil it promotes.
If you think it has peace as its foundation, you are avoiding looking at the very real possibility Islam as it is now practiced is an abomination on this world.

No doubt you have done your own homework and my opinion here is not to change anything, only to utilize the space we are allowed here to write what we believe with in concurrence or opposition.

Religion is meant to be offered to humans (as I see it) as their own path to fulfillment in the lives we are given. How we walk the path is entirely personal and no one must insist we follow their paths because we would be denying one beautiful gift we have received - individual belief.

It is when a cult takes over, indoctrinating your little males into isolated and violent robotic behavior, I have to speak up. Many Christian religions have gone overboard too - but they are soon exposed for their madness and if their congregants live through the trauma, they have an opportunity to find their faith through other means if they choose.

To a firm believer in the cult of Islamic fantaticism - these people are made soul-less, having no self-determination or self-worth, wither intellectually or never form individual opinions, and often die physically
for some individual act practiced against the madness of their "mullahs".
Or worst of all - are ordered to sacrifice their meaningless lives in the name of their Allah.

 

[I think not]

This is a clash of civilizations (culture) sprinkled with religion.

Millions of Muslims all over Canada and the US go about their business and their worship without any problems. They don't run around burning anything when someone publishes a cartoon.

They've been "Westernized"

 

[earth_as_one]

...what women endured at the hands of the males in Islamic "religious" society under the dictates of the Qur'an. It seemed (from my modern western view) an atrocity under the disguise of religion.
The treatment and abuse of women as animals...

You confuse tradition, laws and culture with religion. Here is a comparison of women's rights between major world religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights#Freedoms_granted_by_religions

Few major religions grant women the same rights as men. Christianity isn't that much more liberated than Islam. In general most religions promote more women's rights than local cultures allow.

For example, most Christian women didn't get the vote until recently. They still can't in the Vatican... which technically is a country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights#Freedoms_granted_by_religions

Cultural traditions and laws interfered with women's suffrage, not religion.

...Religions have their good and bad points, but I have yet to know of any other religion than Islam who has exposed itself for the evil it promotes.
If you think it has peace as its foundation, you are avoiding looking at the very real possibility Islam as it is now practiced is an abomination on this world...

Every major religion including Islam has been used for good and evil. Even Christianity has been used to promote evil many times in the past and present. That doesn't mean Christianity or Islam are evil, but that people can use religion for evil.

RELIGIONS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

Personally I'm in favor of letting people worship whoever, whatever they want... as long as it doesn't encroach on my rights. Anything which can do that and promote respect, tolerance, peace, compassion, honesty and charity is bound to have a beneficial effect on any society.

All the world's major religions can do these things including Chrisitianity and Islam. Its the faithful that could do better.

...No doubt you have done your own homework and my opinion here is not to change anything, only to utilize the space we are allowed here to write what we believe with in concurrence or opposition...

All opinions which are based on a sincere desire for peace are valuable. Respectful dialogue is the way. Always consider that everyone has something to learn and something to teach.

 

[Curiosity]

Earth

Thank you for a wise and interesting response.

I have to sign off but before I go - most religions regardless of their treatment of women do not also run government (for example Christianity) - and where I live while religions try to interfere in
governmental laws, they are still kept distinctly apart.

I will read your message again - but to be honest I am still far too
emotionally involved and angry at what I have learned over the past
years to be able to find any "raison d'etre" for Islam and their practices
towards women....and their system of Madrassas training little boys.

You make complete sense and perhaps there is hope for me.... Thanks.

 

[earth_as_one]

I look forward to your response. Also consider:

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/socialservice/sexabuseimamnonwest.asp

and

http://www.snapnetwork.org/

 

[Finder]

Well the Pope has said many things which I personally disagree with, such as saying Canadian (Catholic) legislators have turned there back on the church. In a sence he was saying how they should be legislating catholic morality. But, he is not seeing the bigger picture of the seperation of Church and state and how the church should act in the seculer world, not by legislating (catholic) morality but living by choice with you beliefs.

Anyhow the speech in question had a few false steps, but nothing too far out of line with the truth!

The fact is, is that many Muslim's seem to be getting up in arms with every speech made by a European or a American for just cause to there hatred and mistrust of the west.

Many Muslims are acting in violent ways which proves to the west that that these people can not be reasoned with. I think the typical behavior we've seen in these reactions tell the story. Such as these protesters shouting out slogans such as "Those who say Islam is violent should be beheaded."

 

[Curiosity]

Re: RE: Pope's speech stirs Muslim anger

I look forward to your response. Also consider:

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/socialservice/sexabuseimamnonwest.asp

and

http://www.snapnetwork.org/

Hi again earth

Back for a bit but not sure where we are going with your links here....
One is an English text giving Imams soft messages of comfort in dealing with life's little problems with families.....and females in general.

Then we have a group offering psychological counseling to victims of priestly molest.

These while I understand are of concern to you - hardly relate to the mad fanatics running all over Europe, Australia, and in the ME speaing death to the infidel.....no matter where we live ....

How do these cases relate to watered down alchemy for Imams and sufferers from paedophiliac priests?

I must be missing the connection.... but as this is your topic and I am willing to understand....I have to admit I am confused (which isn't unusual).

 

[Curiosity]

Finder you wrote...

Well the Pope has said many things which I personally disagree with, such as saying Canadian (Catholic) legislators have turned there back on the church. In a sence he was saying how they should be legislating catholic morality. But, he is not seeing the bigger picture of the seperation of Church and state and how the church should act in the seculer world, not by legislating (catholic) morality but living by choice with you beliefs.

Up until the mid-60s in Canada - the Family Law regarding divorce was still ruled according to the wishes of the Roman Catholic Church in Canada. Divorce was finally turned back to the legislature to revamp and revise some of the archaic laws on the books which had been demanded by the Catholics. A woman could not divorce a husband unless there was "proof" that he had been with another woman. Consequently - in order to obtain a divorce a woman had to "catch him in the act" with a woman. Often the set up was arranged by the lawyer handling the case who hired two detectives and a "female" to pose for the wife to walk in and be horrified - so the wife could testify honestly she had witnessed the event....

This sounds fair I guess but there were hundreds of women who were legally married to felons incarcerated for life who would never "lie with a woman" and in those days I guess they didn't talk openly about "lieing with your same sex roommate in jail"....

Marriage can have many more problems than a philandering husband or wife - as we all know - rampant alcoholism, drug abuse, physical abuse,
child abuse, debts, gambling, long absence from home, desertion,etc. etc. But the church required only sex outside or marriage. That is insular thinking on the part of the church who are not "experts" in marriage at all.

Religion mixing into governmental issues just doesn't work. I won't even go near the Residential Schools for First Nations children.

Sorry off topic a bit but it was just a sample of how things can go wrong when one religion is given preference in the democracy of a nation.

 

[Curiosity]

Back on topic - here's an opinion on the Pope's speech...

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1538

15 September
The Amazing and Utterly Irrational Islamic Response to Benedict XVI

In an amazing display of utter hypocrisy leaders in the Islamic world are demanding an apology from Pope Benedict XVI. What did the Pontiff do? He dared read a quotation from a conversation that took place in the fourteenth century. And what was the horridly offensive statement? He quoted, not as his own words, but accurately, the words of Emperor Manuel Paleologos II speaking to a Persian scholar on the conflict between Christianity and Islam. The words were, "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." That's it! He dared quote such a statement! It was in the context of eschewing violence in matters of religion, I might add.
Now, consider the response to this simple citation of a historical source:
Pakistan's legislature unanimously condemned the Pope. (I wonder if a single one of them had a clue what he said, or the context in which it was said? Probably not).
According to this story, the deputy leader of the ruling Islamic party, "said Benedict's remarks were either 'the result of pitiful ignorance' about Islam and its prophet or, worse, a deliberate distortion." He said, "He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world. It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades. Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks, is going down in history for his words. He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini."
Protests broke out in Gaza City, and a Hamas spokesman said the Pope had offended Muslims everywhere.
Now, of course, every single one of these people know that in Islamic countries Imams regularly preach death to the West and death to Christianity. They well know the hatred expressed toward Jews on a daily basis. So it simply is not possible for them to not realize the gross hypocrisy in pretending outrage over the Pope quoting a conversation that took place hundreds of years ago. The few who have even read the comments and noted the context are guilty of knowing hypocrisy. But they are the minority. You can bet without question that the vast majority of these folks have only heard either a completely a-contextual version, like, "The Pope said Mohammad (pbuh!) was evil and inhuman! Take up arms!" or worse, as in the "cartoon" saga a few months ago, they have been given a full-blown lie and some other outrageous "quotation."
Now, I do not want anyone to faint upon reading what I am about to say, but for the sake of all that is good and right and just, I hope Benedict XVI refuses to apologize. Clarify the statement? Fine. Provide the context? Great. But do not apologize for claiming the freedom to quote a historical source! I could quote dozens and dozens of Islamic writers whose words I find deeply offensive. Would I be given the right to demand apologies from the entire Islamic world? Surely not!
Finally, one of the most amazing statements in the above linked news article was this one: "Many Muslims accused Benedict of seeking to promote Judeo-Christian dominance over Islam." Anyone with the slightest idea of what militant Islam is all about knows it seeks the establishment of Islamic law throughout the world. That is what the current world situation is all about: the consistent application of Islamic beliefs to the political systems of all nations. See the writings of Sayyid Qutb, who greatly influenced Bin Laden, for examples of this on almost every page. So when I read this kind of complaint, my hypocrisy meter pegs and starts smoking. But will almost anyone in the West point out this hypocrisy? No, because our ability to think, and speak, clearly has been seriously compromised by political correctness. Yes, Islam seeks world domination, by force and death and destruction. And therein lies another major difference between us: Christianity boldly proclaims that it, in fact, will someday see Jesus Christ enthroned as the King of kings, and He will rule over all the earth. But how does He rule and reign today? He does so by changing hearts and minds, not through the barrel of an AK-47. Those who bow the knee to Christ today to do because their natures have been changed. It is a supernatural conversion, not a violent one.


posted at 19:34:49 on 09/15/06 by James R. White - Category: Islam

Perhaps they didn't have a very good translator? :roll:

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes he did quote those words in support his opinions if I understand where he was going.

I'm not sure it demonstrates hostility so much as having a distorted perception of Islam based on writings of Christian intellectuals. If so I am surprised, especially since Pope John Paul II was fairly enlightened in that respect.

This Pope may live up to his reputation as 'God's rottweiler'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/20/wpope20.xml

Sexual abuse is not limited to Islam. Solutions to sexual abuse does not exclude Islam.

All cultures have hot buttons. For some its religion:

for others its sports:

 

[earth_as_one]

Six football hooligans were jailed on Thursday for fighting before a Worthington Cup derby clash.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgu...s?q=soccer+hooligans+&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N

 

[tamarin]

We're tired of Islamic rage. Whether it's over cartoons, what their moms are wearing or what the pope said. It used to be entertaining but now it's just boring. it really is time for them all to get a life.