Bush: Amend Geneva conventions to fit American Law

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Text: President Bush's News Conference

Q: Mr. President, former Secretary of State Colin Powell says the world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. If a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former secretary of state feels this way, don't you think that Americans and the rest of the world are beginning to wonder whether you're following a flawed strategy?

BUSH: If there's any comparison between the compassion and decency of the American people and the terrorist tactics of extremists, it's flawed logic...

...It's unacceptable to think that there's any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-6083135,00.html

What rights should POW's have?

American POW


American POW

Bush: "...comparison between the compassion and decency of the American people and the terrorist tactics of extremists..."

UNITED NATIONS HUMAN RIGHTS EXPERTS EXPRESS CONTINUED CONCERN ABOUT SITUATION OF GUANTANAMO BAY DETAINEES
4/2/2005

...“In January 2005 the detention centre at the United States Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay entered into its fourth year of existence, and many of the inmates are completing their third year of virtually incommunicado detention, without legal assistance or information as to the expected duration of their detention, and in conditions of detention that, according to numerous observers, amount to inhuman and degrading treatment...

...(a) Both the international armed conflict in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq have been over for more than 18 months now. The Third Geneva Convention, dealing with prisoners of war, mandates that any prisoner of war must be released “without delay after the end of hostilities”. The legal basis for the continued detention of the GuantánamoBay inmates is therefore unclear. In any event, many of them were arrested in countries which were not parties to any armed conflict involving the United States of America;

(b) The lack of clarity concerning the legal basis on which the Guantánamo detainees are deprived of their freedom also means that both the detainees and their families are in a state of uncertainty regarding the remaining duration of the detention;

(c) The exact number and the names of the persons detained at GuantánamoBay continue to be unknown. This situation is extremely disconcerting and is conducive to the unacknowledged transfer of inmates to other, often secret, detention facilities, whether run by the United States or by other countries. This situation is of particular concern to the Working Group on Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances;

(d) Concerns have been voiced regarding the independence of both the Combatant Status Review Tribunals and the Administrative Review Board, and with respect to the fairness of the proceedings before them. In particular, most detainees do not have access to legal counsel, and much of the evidence on which the decision to detain them is based is not disclosed to them;

(e) The need to objectively assess the allegations of torture, and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, particularly in relation to methods of interrogation of detainees, that have been brought to the attention of the Special Rapporteur on torture;

(f) The conditions of detention, especially of those in solitary confinement, place the detainees at significant risk of psychiatric deterioration, possibly including the development of irreversible psychiatric symptoms;

(g) Most detainees do not know whether the United States Government intends to raise criminal charges against them or not. The procedural rules governing the Military Commissions set up to try those detainees who will face criminal charges raise misgivings similar to those voiced with regard to the Combatant Status Review Tribunals: doubts regarding the actual independence of the Commissions, and concerning the fairness in the respective positions (or “equality of position”) between prosecution and defence, in particular with regard to access to evidence. Moreover, the mandate holders recall that where the conditions of detention are such as to subject a defendant to inhuman or degrading treatment, or to otherwise gravely weaken him physically and psychologically, equality is compromised and any imprisonment upon conviction tainted with arbitrariness...

http://www.un.org/news/Press/docs/2005/hr4812.doc.htm

Bush: "...extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective..."

Iraqi Women Under Occupation
By Ghali Hassan

09 May, 2005

...U.S. aerial bombing and destruction caused the death of great numbers of women and children. In November 2004, the reputable British medical journal, the Lancet, reported that from March 2003 to October 2004, U.S. forces have killed more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians. The number of Iraqis killed is increasing daily. The Lancet authors acknowledge that most of the victims were innocent women and children killed by U.S. bombing of population centres....

http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hassan090505.htm





REPUBLIC OF IRAQ
2006 Amnesty International Annual Report

Both the US-led Multinational Force (MNF) and Iraqi security forces committed grave human rights violations, including torture and ill-treatment, arbitrary detention without charge or trial, and excessive use of force resulting in civilian deaths. Armed groups fighting against the MNF and the Iraqi government were responsible for grave human rights abuses, including the deliberate killing of thousands of civilians in bomb and other attacks, hostage-taking and torture. Dozens of people were sentenced to death by criminal courts and at least three were executed. Former President Saddam Hussain and seven others were brought to trial. Women and girls continued to be harassed and lived in fear as a result of the continuing lack of security...

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/irq-summary-eng

Torture and ill-treatment

There was evidence of widespread torture and ill-treatment by the Iraqi security forces. Methods of torture included hanging by the arms, burning with cigarettes, beatings, the use of electric shocks on different parts of the body, strangulation, the breaking of limbs and sexual abuse. Torture and ill-treatment were reported in secret detention centres, police stations and official detention centres in different parts of the country as well as in buildings in Baghdad under the control of the Interior Ministry.
In February, three alleged members of the Badr Organization died in custody after being arrested by Iraqi police at a police checkpoint. The bodies of the three men, Majbal ‘Adnan Latif, his brother ‘Ali ‘Adnan Latif, and ‘Aidi Mahassin Lifteh, were found three days later, bearing marks of beatings and electric shocks.
In February, a 46-year-old housewife from Mosul, Khalida Zakiya, was shown on the Iraqi TV programme “Terrorism in the Grip of Justice” alleging that she had supported an armed group. However, she later stated that she had been coerced into making a false confession. She reported that during her detention by Interior Ministry forces she had been whipped with a cable and threatened with sexual abuse.
In July, 12 men were detained by the Iraqi police in Baghdad’s al-‘Amirya district. Nine of the 12 suffocated to death after being confined in a police van. The Iraqi authorities suggested that the 12 were members of an armed group who had engaged in an exchange of fire with US or Iraqi forces. However, other sources claimed they were a group of bricklayers who were arrested as suspected insurgents and then tortured by police commandos before being confined in a police van in extremely high temperatures for up to 14 hours. Medical staff at the Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, where the bodies of those who died were taken on 11 July, were reported to have confirmed that some of them bore signs of torture, including electric shocks.
In November, US forces announced that they had found 173 detainees confined secretly in a building controlled by the Interior Ministry. Many had been tortured, ill-treated and were malnourished. Shortly thereafter, the Iraqi government launched an investigation into these and other allegations of torture.
There were also reports that the MNF tortured or ill-treated detainees.
In September, several members of the US National Guard’s 184th Infantry Regiment were sentenced to prison terms in connection with torture or ill-treatment of Iraqis. The detainees had reportedly been arrested in March following an attack on a power plant near Baghdad. According to media reports, an electric stun gun had been used on handcuffed and blindfolded detainees...

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/irq-summary-eng#4
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
Wow, what great pictures.

I bet if I were to post the video of what the koranimals did to PFC Kristian Menchaca, and PFC Thomas Tucker, I would be promptly banned. Not much about them in the news anymore is there though? Does anyone even remember who they are?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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America's current adversaries are no worse than North Koreans of the 1950's, or North Vietnamese during the 1960's-70's. Somehow Americans were able to get by without resorting to torture. Opting out of Geneva conventions would be extremely shortsighted and put American service men and women at increased risk of abuse should they become POWs themselves.

But don't take my word for it....

Powell's letter:

Dear Senator McCain:

I just returned to town and learned about the debate taking place in Congress to redefine Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. I do not support such a step and believe it would be inconsistent with the McCain amendment on torture, which I supported last year.

I have read the powerful and eloquent letter sent to you by one (of) my distinguished predecessors as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Jack Vessey. I fully endorse in tone and tint his powerful argument. The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. To redefine Common Article 3 would add to those doubts. Furthermore, it would put our own troops at risk.

I am as familiar with "The Armed Forces Officer" as is Jack Vessey. It was written after all the horrors of World War II, and General George C. Marshall, then secretary of defense, used it to tell the world and to remind our soldiers of our moral obligations with respect to those in our custody.

Sincerely,

Colin L. Powell

http://dailynews.com/news/ci_4341100

September 12, 2006
The Honorable John Warner, Chairman
The Honorable Carl Levin, Ranking Member
Senate Armed Services Committee
United States Senate
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Chairman Warner and Senator Levin:

As retired military leaders of the U.S. Armed Forces and former officials of the Department of Defense, we write to express our profound concern about a key provision of S. 3861, the Military Commissions Act of 2006, introduced last week at the behest of the President. We believe that the language that would redefine Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions as equivalent to the standards contained in the Detainee Treatment Act violates the core principles of the Geneva Conventions and poses a grave threat to American service-members, now and in future wars.

We supported your efforts last year to clarify that all detainees in U.S. custody must be treated humanely. That was particularly important, because the administration determined that it was not bound by the basic humane treatment standards contained in Geneva Common Article 3. Now that the Supreme Court has made clear that treatment of al Qaeda prisoners is governed by the Geneva Convention standards, the Administration is seeking to redefine Common Article 3, so as to downgrade those standards. We urge you to reject this effort.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions provides the minimum standards for humane treatment and fair justice that apply to anyone captured in armed conflict. These standards were specifically designed to ensure that those who fall outside the other, more extensive, protections of the Conventions are treated in accordance with the values of civilized nations. The framers of the Conventions, including the American representatives, in particular wanted to ensure that Common Article 3 would apply in situations where a state party to the treaty, like the United States, fights an adversary that is not a party, including irregular forces like al Qaeda. The United States military has abided by the basic requirements of Common Article 3 in every conflict since the Conventions were adopted. In each case, we applied the Geneva Conventions -- including, at a minimum, Common Article 3 -- even to enemies that systematically violated the Conventions themselves.

We have abided by this standard in our own conduct for a simple reason: the same standard serves to protect American servicemen and women when they engage in conflicts covered by Common Article 3. Preserving the integrity of this standard has become increasingly important in recent years when our adversaries often are not nation-states. Congress acted in 1997 to further this goal by criminalizing violations of Common Article 3 in the War Crimes Act, enabling us to hold accountable those who abuse our captured personnel, no matter the nature of the armed conflict.

If any agency of the U.S. government is excused from compliance with these standards, or if we seek to redefine what Common Article 3 requires, we should not imagine that our enemies will take notice of the technical distinctions when they hold U.S. prisoners captive. If degradation, humiliation, physical and mental brutalization of prisoners is decriminalized or considered permissible under a restrictive interpretation of Common Article 3, we will forfeit all credible objections should such barbaric practices be inflicted upon American prisoners.

This is not just a theoretical concern. We have people deployed right now in theaters where Common Article 3 is the only source of legal protection should they be captured. If we allow that standard to be eroded, we put their safety at greater risk.

Last week, the Department of Defense issued a Directive reaffirming that the military will uphold the requirements of Common Article 3 with respect to all prisoners in its custody. We welcome this new policy. Our servicemen and women have operated for too long with unclear and unlawful guidance on detainee treatment, and some have been left to take the blame when things went wrong.

The guidance is now clear.

But that clarity will be short-lived if the approach taken by Administration’s bill prevails. In contrast to the Pentagon’s new rules on detainee treatment, the bill would limit our definition of Common Article 3's terms by introducing a flexible, sliding scale that might allow certain coercive interrogation techniques under some circumstances, while forbidding them under others. This
would replace an absolute standard – Common Article 3 -- with a relative one. To do so will only create further confusion.

Moreover, were we to take this step, we would be viewed by the rest of the world as having
formally renounced the clear strictures of the Geneva Conventions. Our enemies would be encouraged to interpret the Conventions in their own way as well, placing our troops in jeopardy in future conflicts. And American moral authority in the war would be further damaged.

All of this is unnecessary. As the senior serving Judge Advocates General recently testified, our armed forces have trained to Common Article 3 and can live within its requirements while waging the war on terror effectively.
As the United States has greater exposure militarily than any other nation, we have long emphasized the reciprocal nature of the Geneva Conventions. That is why we believe – and the United States has always asserted -- that a broad interpretation of Common Article 3 is vital to the safety of U.S. personnel. But the Administration’s bill would put us on the opposite side of that argument. We urge you to consider the impact that redefining Common Article 3 would have on Americans who put their lives at risk in defense of our Nation. We believe their interests, and their safety and
protection should they become prisoners, should be your highest priority as you address this issue.

With respect,

General John Shalikashvili, USA (Ret.)
General Joseph Hoar, USMC (Ret.)
General Merrill A. McPeak (Ret. USAF)
Admiral Stansfield Turner, USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Robert G. Gard, Jr., USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn, USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Donald L. Kerrick, USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Albert H. Konetzni Jr., USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Charles Otstott, USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan, USN (Ret.)
Major General John Batiste, USA (Ret.)
Major General Eugene Fox, USA (Ret.)
Major General John L. Fugh, USA (Ret.)
Rear Admiral Don Guter, USN (Ret.)
Major General Fred E. Haynes, USMC (Ret.)
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, USN (Ret.)
Major General Melvyn Montano, ANG (Ret.)
Major General Gerald T. Sajer, USA (Ret.)
Major General Michael J. Scotti Jr., USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, USMC (Ret.)
Brigadier General James P. Cullen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General David R. Irvine, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General John H. Johns, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Richard O’Meara, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Murray G. Sagsveen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Anthony Verrengia, USAF (Ret.)
Brigadier General Stephen N. Xenakis, USA (Ret.)
Ambassador Pete Peterson, USAF (Ret.)
Colonel Lawrence B. Wilkerson, USA (Ret.)
Honorable William H. Taft IV

http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06913-etn-military-let-ca3.pdf
 

Texas1

Electoral Member
Sep 23, 2005
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thomaska said:
Wow, what great pictures.

I bet if I were to post the video of what the koranimals did to PFC Kristian Menchaca, and PFC Thomas Tucker, I would be promptly banned. Not much about them in the news anymore is there though? Does anyone even remember who they are?

Post them, some people need a reminder every once in a while.

Bush will vito this if they don't play like he wants them to, and rightly so. Anyone that thinks these POS have the same rights as soilders is out of their GD minds.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
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The faster Bush gets out of office the better off the world will be. He is completely nuts.
 

Texas1

Electoral Member
Sep 23, 2005
112
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Re: RE: Bush: Amend Geneva conventions to fit American Law

Kreskin said:
The faster Bush gets out of office the better off the world will be. He is completely nuts.

Wait till you see the next one, you'll wish Bush was back in office. First week Iran will be turned into a glass factory.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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Pictures are powerful, but so are statistics:

Iraqi military dead(Saddam-era): 6,000-30,000

Insurgents dead or jailed : 67,000+[4]

Total combatants dead or jailed due to war: 72,000 - 100,000[4]: Coalition dead[inc. 2,669 US, 118 UK, 115 other, 428+ contractors]: 3,330

Iraqi Security Forces dead(post-Saddam era): 6,167

Coalition Wounded in action [inc. 19,910 U.S., 800+ UK, 3,963+ contractors]: 24,673[5] [6]
Civilian dead due directly to war: 39,171 to 43,846 [7]

Total deaths of civilian and non-civilians due to war [over the previous year before the war]:
98,000 (95% CI 8,000 - 194,000)[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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President Discusses Global War on Terror
Capital Hilton Hotel
Washington, D.C
September 5, 2006

...These terrorists hope to drive America and our coalition out of Afghanistan, so they can restore the safe haven they lost when coalition forces drove them out five years ago. But they've made clear that the most important front in their struggle against America is Iraq -- the nation bin Laden has declared the "capital of the Caliphate."...http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060905-4.html

Among Insurgents in Iraq, Few Foreigners Are Found

By Jonathan Finer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, November 17, 2005

...Cordesman said the relative influence of foreign and Iraqi elements of the insurgency is difficult to measure because accurate numbers are hard to come by. In a report published in September, he and a co-author said they believed that 4 to 10 percent of the roughly 30,000 insurgents in Iraq are foreigners, many of them adherents of a radical branch of Islam known as Salafism.

They said that interviews with intelligence officials and earlier studies suggested that the largest contingents are Algerians (20 percent), Syrians (18 percent), Yemenis (17 percent), Sudanese (15 percent) and Egyptians (13 percent)...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/16/AR2005111602519.html

The 'myth' of Iraq's foreign fighters
Report by US think tank says only '4 to 10' percent of insurgents are foreigners.

By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com

The US and Iraqi governments have vastly overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, and most of them don't come from Saudi Arabia, according to a new report from the Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS). According to a piece in The Guardian, this means the US and Iraq " feed the myth" that foreign fighters are the backbone of the insurgency. While the foreign fighters may stoke the insurgency flames, they make up only about 4 to 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgents.
The CSIS study also disputes media reports that Saudis are the largest group of foreign fighters. CSIS says "Algerians are the largest group (20 percent), followed by Syrians (18 percent), Yemenis (17 percent), Sudanese (15 percent), Egyptians (13 percent), Saudis (12 percent) and those from other states (5 percent)." CSIS gathered the information for its study from intelligence sources in the Gulf region.

The CSIS report says: "The vast majority of Saudi militants who have entered Iraq were not terrorist sympathizers before the war; and were radicalized almost exclusively by the coalition invasion."
The average age of the Saudis was 17-25 and they were generally middle-class with jobs, though they usually had connections with the most prominent conservative tribes. "Most of the Saudi militants were motivated by revulsion at the idea of an Arab land being occupied by a non-Arab country. These feelings are intensified by the images of the occupation they see on television and the Internet ... the catalyst most often cited [in interrogations] is Abu Ghraib, though images from Guant�namo Bay also feed into the pathology...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Re: RE: Bush: Amend Geneva conventions to fit American Law

Texas1 said:
Kreskin said:
The faster Bush gets out of office the better off the world will be. He is completely nuts.

Wait till you see the next one, you'll wish Bush was back in office. First week Iran will be turned into a glass factory.

Who would that be? Jack Nicholson?