Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

[elevennevele]

Israel can say whatever they like but they are the ones breaking the ceasefire as per the terms set down. I’ve listened to a lot of people here say Hezbollah can’t be trusted in keeping their word and yet it’s the Israelis who are the ones to break their word.

Double standards. I so dislike double standards.

Again, actions are the truth behind a person’s intentions. If Israel wants to have any credibility in the world and on this conflict they better at least show they can live up to a basic standard of trust.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060819.wmideat0819/BNStory/International/home


The broad outlines of the ceasefire called on Hezbollah to halt all military activity and for Israel to stop offensive operations. It gave Israel the right to respond if attacked. The commando raid took place far from Israeli troops in the deep south of Lebanon.

AND...

Overflights by Israeli jet fighters drowned the clatter of helicopters as they flew into the foothills of the central Lebanese mountains, dropping commandos and two vehicles, Hezbollah officials on the scene said.

The commandos then drove into Boudai, and when Hezbollah fighters intercepted them in a field, the commandos identified themselves as the Lebanese army, the officials said. The guerrillas grew suspicious and gunfire erupted, they said. Israeli helicopters fired missiles as the commandos withdrew and flew out of the area an hour later.

Israel only has the right to respond if attacked. If they felt there was any justifiable grievance then they can take their complaint to the UN. That would be the decent course of action if they wish to have any credibility. It would be up to the UN to suggest some course of action.

 

[blugoo]

Israel only has the right to respond if attacked. If they felt there was any justifiable grievance then they can take their complaint to the UN. That would be the decent course of action if they wish to have any credibility. It would be up to the UN to suggest some course of action.

You're kidding, right? I don't know enough yet to judge if Israel was justified in breaking the cease-fire, but if everyone waited around for the UN to act, the world would burn down.

 

[tamarin]

Maybe we should all sign a petition to get rid of the UN. It's a nuisance. A poseur. A pretender. A waste of contributors' dollars and good will. A lot of folks are making money on the back of this beluga. Time they were towed out of port.

 

[elevennevele]

You're kidding, right? I don't know enough yet to judge if Israel was justified in breaking the cease-fire, but if everyone waited around for the UN to act, the world would burn down.

No I’m not kidding.

There were terms set down for the ceasefire and Israel broke them. Israel has not denied they conducted a military operation. Rather, they have admitted to it, and are trying to justify it.

They can say anything they want. And why should we believe them? Because they are Israeli? There were terms set down and Israel have broken them.

Israel only has the right to respond if attacked as per the terms of the UN ceasefire. Not conduct military operations well into Lebanese territory. That can only amount to provocation.

Also your attitude to the UN does not excuse Israel of committing violations set forth by the international community.

 

[Just the Facts]

Hezboallah has already declared it will not allow itself to be disarmed. The Lebanese government has stated it will not disarm them forcibly. France and Italy have stated the same. Condoleeza Rice hopes Hezboallah will disarm voluntarily. :?

Apparently arms are still flowing freely across the Syrian border. If I recall correctly a rocket or rockets were fired into Israel a couple of days ago, to which Israel decided not to respond. The main pledgers of peacekeeping forces are also organizing Jihad field trips to Lebanon.

Yeah, the UN ceasefire is immaterial at this point.

 

[tamarin]

The cease fire won't hold anyway. Now it remains for the UN and that ragtag polyglot known as the international community to decide how to police and enforce their agreement. In Canada if you break parole you're usually ignored the first, second and third time. Using our example we should do something only if the Israelis or Hezbollah becomes chronic in their mischief.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

Maybe we should all sign a petition to get rid of the UN. It's a nuisance. A poseur. A pretender. A waste of contributors' dollars and good will. A lot of folks are making money on the back of this beluga. Time they were towed out of port.

The UN is basically a collective of the standards set forth by the international community. A sort of round table meeting for the nations of the world. Some nations however having more voice than others thus the table is not so round.

The United States has been very obstructing to the UN’s ability to act. They have constantly vetoed resolutions to hold Israel accountable for numerous crimes against humanity. The UN headquarters are in the United States. The USA itself has under the recent administration been a huge violator of human rights.

If you wish to slam the UN for being ineffectual, at least recognize the cause for that ineffectiveness. The best thing they could do right now is move the UN to another country that is much more neutral.

To ask for a UN that truly punishes crimes against humanity would be to see the international community put sanctions on the United States for what they have done to Iraq. That is until the USA has remedied this situation that was not supported by the UN, but rather condemned from the very beginning.

Would you be for such an action in order to see a truly proactive UN with teeth to it’s policies? Or am I to hear more double standards from those who decry the UN?

 

[blugoo]

No I’m not kidding.

There were terms set down for the ceasefire and Israel broke them. Israel has not denied they conducted a military operation. Rather, they have admitted to it, and are trying to justify it.

They can say anything they want. And why should we believe them? Because they are Israeli? There were terms set down and Israel have broken them.

Israel only has the right to respond if attacked as per the terms of the UN ceasefire. Not conduct military operations well into Lebanese territory. That can only amount to provocation.

Also your attitude to the UN does not excuse Israel of committing violations set forth by the international community.

Israel did not admit to breaking the terms. Israel claims that arms shipments were coming in from Iran for use against Israel by Hezbollah. This I think is not only plausible, but very likely. Israel has the right to defend itself under the ceasefire, and claim attacking this arms cache before it can be turned against Israel is self-defense.

As far as living up to a ceasefire goes, what does trying to sneak in more weapons mean for such a deal? The fact is, this ceasefire was doomed from the start. Hezbollah and its backers do not want peace.

And good thing for Israel that it doesn't have to abide by international opinion. It would have long since ceased to exist otherwise.

 

[elevennevele]

Apparently arms are still flowing freely across the Syrian border. If I recall correctly a rocket or rockets were fired into Israel a couple of days ago, to which Israel decided not to respond. The main pledgers of peacekeeping forces are also organizing Jihad field trips to Lebanon.

Yeah, the UN ceasefire is immaterial at this point.

Those were mortar rounds (four mortar rounds) and they were inside Lebanese territory. This is also a version coming out of Israel Defense Forces so I’m not holding my breath on what really happened there. Who's to say who started what small exchanges? The current news however with the raid doesn't help Isreal win the "keeping our word" award.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/14/mideast.main/index.html

The Israel Defense Forces reported that about four mortar rounds were fired inside southern Lebanon after the cease-fire, which went into effect early Monday. But none of them hit Israeli territory, and Israel decided not to respond, an IDF spokesman said.

Several small clashes between Hezbollah fighters and Israeli soldiers were also reported, in which at least six Hezbollah militants were killed. But so far, there have been no large-scale violations of the U.N.-brokered cease-fire.

Explosions were heard in southern Lebanon after nightfall, but the IDF attributed them to the ongoing destruction of Hezbollah weapons caches and unexploded rockets.

This is the part that we are all waiting on.

As part of the U.N.-brokered cease-fire agreement, Israel agreed to stop offensive military operations and, once the combined Lebanese-international force is in place, withdraw its forces from the region of Lebanon south of the Litani River. In return, Hezbollah is to disarm south of the river.

However, the looming question is whether Hezbollah will comply with the U.N.'s demand that it disarm completely.

Mohamad Chatah, an adviser to Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, said his government's goal is to convince Hezbollah to become "a normal political party, having the same rights and obligations as others."

"Hezbollah says that can happen," Chatah told CNN. "We cannot have two armies anymore."

I’ve used CNN as a source to make my point as they would have no bias for Hezbollah whatsoever, but I honestly do not care much for their journalistic integrity anymore.

 

[elevennevele]

Israel did not admit to breaking the terms. Israel claims that arms shipments were coming in from Iran for use against Israel by Hezbollah. This I think is not only plausible, but very likely. Israel has the right to defend itself under the ceasefire, and claim attacking this arms cache before it can be turned against Israel is self-defense.

I didn’t say they admitted to breaking the terms. I said Isreal didn’t deny conducting a military operation. That itself breaks the terms of the ceasefire.

I don’t care what Israel has to say.

Isreal will say what they want, but if you are going to quote them for what is occuring on the ground than you have lost your objectivity as to what you are contributing here.

Statements from Israel and statements from Hezbollah as to what is happening could both amount to nothing more than propaganda. If you can’t see this, and will simply take one side’s word on the conflict over the other then there isn’t much more I can say to you.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

The cease fire won't hold anyway. Now it remains for the UN and that ragtag polyglot known as the international community to decide how to police and enforce their agreement. In Canada if you break parole you're usually ignored the first, second and third time. Using our example we should do something only if the Israelis or Hezbollah becomes chronic in their mischief.

I don’t see how using Canada’s parole system has anything to do with this conflict.

How about Israel stop conducting military operations in Lebanon and let the UN get in there so that we can then properly criticize the UN for what they can and can’t do. Or does Isreal’s ‘word’ regarding a ceasefire not count for anything?

 

[blugoo]

I didn’t say they admitted to breaking the terms. I said Isreal didn’t deny conducting a military operation. That itself breaks the terms of the ceasefire.

I don’t care what Israel has to say.

Isreal will say what they want, but if you are going to quote them for what is occuring on the ground than you have lost your objectivity as to what you are contributing here.

Statements from Israel and statements from Hezbollah as to what is happening could both amount to nothing more than propaganda. If you can’t see this, and will simply take one side’s word on the conflict over the other then there isn’t much more I can say to you.

You do realize that by Hezbollah continuing to acquire weapons for attacking Israel, THAT is a violation of the ceasefire - don't you? Hezbollah has never been interested in peace, but you seem determined to blame Israel. I wonder why that is?...

And I hope you aren't confusing objectivity with moral equivalency. Hezbollah is a terrorist group bent on the destruction of a nation and its people. Israel is a sovereign country with the right to defend itself. If you think both of those viewpoints deserve equal time, and are both valid, then there isn't much more I can say to you.

 

[Just the Facts]

The United States has been very obstructing to the UN’s ability to act. They have constantly vetoed resolutions to hold Israel accountable for numerous crimes against humanity.

Yet we still keep hearing ad nauseum about all the resolutions that Israel has yet to comply with. How one-sided is that? :roll:

Those were mortar rounds (four mortar rounds) and they were inside Lebanese territory.

Yeah, that was it, thanks.

The current news however with the raid doesn't help Isreal win the "keeping our word" award.

It doesn't matter anymore. Again you're holding Israel to a higher standard and ignoring the violations of the other side. Hizboallah has stated emphatically in no uncertain terms that it will not disarm, and the Lebanese government and the U.N. and nations volunteering troops have stated in no uncertain terms that they will not put themselves in harms way to try to force Hizboallah to disarm.

Weapons are flowing from Iran across the the Syrian border while the Lebanese government is getting in on the victory parade. The Lebanese army will do nothing to impede Hezboallah. I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite happens and Hezboallah takes over the Lebanese military...if not the government.

Meanwhile, Israel has already withdrawn from two thirds of the Lebanese territory it held, last I heard.

Despite this, we see fit to blame Israel for violating the ceasefire.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and a way for peace will be unearthed, but we're talking miracles. The UN ceasefire agreement is irrelevant...it's toast.

This is the part that we are all waiting on.

However, the looming question is whether Hezbollah will comply with the U.N.'s demand that it disarm completely.

Considering they already said they won't, and even Kofi Annan said they won't be made to, it's really not much of a question.

 

[earth_as_one]

Israel's commando raid appears directed at civilians, limited in scope and motivated purely by military objectives. I would say it doesn't break the terms of what has been agreed to so far.

If belligerent forces must fight because its our nature, then we must set limits.

The UN charter, international laws and conventions allow for acts of war and apply reasonable limits. They also define war crimes and crimes against humanity.

If Israel had reacted this way in the first place, Hezbollah wouldn't have been justified firing rockets at Israeli citizens.

This means Hezbollah can justify launching its own commando raid in return in Lebanon... or Israel. But Hezbollah would violate its word if it targeted civilians in response.

Ironic Hezbollah faces the same choice that Israel did a month ago.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

Ironic Hezbollah faces the same choice that Israel did a month ago.

Except that Hezboallah isn't a state, it's a terrorist organization. Do the Hell's Angels have a legitimate excuse to start arresting cops, because Boucher was arrested? I don't think so.

 

[sine000]

Dont you guys think that although Hezbollah is a *terrorist organization*....Israel shouldnt be condemned for raiding Lebanon....Paratrooping into a school...then setting it on fire...I mean...YES...HEZBOLLAH KILL PEOPLE...BUT THEY GOT THE HEARTS OF SOME OF THE LEBANESE PEOPLE...

 

[Toro]

Hezboallah has already declared it will not allow itself to be disarmed. The Lebanese government has stated it will not disarm them forcibly. France and Italy have stated the same. Condoleeza Rice hopes Hezboallah will disarm voluntarily. :?

Apparently arms are still flowing freely across the Syrian border. If I recall correctly a rocket or rockets were fired into Israel a couple of days ago, to which Israel decided not to respond. The main pledgers of peacekeeping forces are also organizing Jihad field trips to Lebanon.

Yeah, the UN ceasefire is immaterial at this point.

And remember that the terms of Israel's withdrawl from Lebanon six years ago included the disarming of all extra-military groups, including Hezbollah.

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

Dont you guys think that although Hezbollah is a *terrorist organization*....Israel shouldnt be condemned for raiding Lebanon....Paratrooping into a school...then setting it on fire...I mean...YES...HEZBOLLAH KILL PEOPLE...BUT THEY GOT THE HEARTS OF SOME OF THE LEBANESE PEOPLE...

Or Hezbollah hiding weapons underneath hospitals, or Hezbollah making their headquarters on the first floor of a crowded high-rise apartment building, etc.

 

[sine000]

Re: RE: Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

Dont you guys think that although Hezbollah is a *terrorist organization*....Israel shouldnt be condemned for raiding Lebanon....Paratrooping into a school...then setting it on fire...I mean...YES...HEZBOLLAH KILL PEOPLE...BUT THEY GOT THE HEARTS OF SOME OF THE LEBANESE PEOPLE...

Or Hezbollah hiding weapons underneath hospitals, or Hezbollah making their headquarters on the first floor of a crowded high-rise apartment building, etc.

Israel might be attacking the place just because someone might give false news....

 

[earth_as_one]

Re: RE: Israel breaks ceasefire with raid

Ironic Hezbollah faces the same choice that Israel did a month ago.

Except that Hezboallah isn't a state, it's a terrorist organization. Do the Hell's Angels have a legitimate excuse to start arresting cops, because Boucher was arrested? I don't think so.

Bad example.

The Hell's Angels didn't form as a result of an invasion. The Hells Angels aren't motivated by resistance to a foreign occupation.

Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon before Hezbollah existed. Citizens have an inherent right to resist foreign invaders. Hezbollah was a consequence of Israel's invasion/occupation.

Hezbollah is not that different from the French resistance against the Nazi occupation during WW II.