'They hate our policies, not our freedom'

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
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Late on the Wednesday afternoon before the Thanksgiving holiday, the US Defense Department confirmed the contents of a report by the Defense Science Board that is highly critical of the administration's efforts in the war on terror and in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The report had been originally placed on the DSB's website in early November.

'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the report says]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.'

The Pentagon confirmed the study after The New York Times ran a story about the report in its Wednesday editions.



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The Defense Science Board, reports Disinfopedia, is "a Federal advisory committee established to provide independent advice to the Secretary of Defense."

'The current Board is authorized to consist of thirty-two members plus seven ex officio members': the chairmen of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Policy, Ballistic Missile Defense Advisory Committee, and Defense Intelligence Agency Science and Technology Advisory Committee. 'Members, whose appointed terms range from one to four years, are selected on the basis of their preeminence in the fields of science, technology and its application to military operations, research, engineering, manufacturing and acquisition process.'

China's Xinhuanet reported that the board's report criticized the US for failing in its efforts to communicate its military and diplomatic actions to the world, and the Muslim world in particular, "but no public relations campaign can save America from flawed policies." The report also takes the administration to task for talking about Islamic extremism in a way that offends many Muslims.

In stark contrast to the cold war, the United States today is not seeking to contain a threatening state empire, but rather seeking to convert a broad movement within Islamic civilization to accept the value structure of Western Modernity – an agenda hidden within the official rubric of a 'War on Terrorism,' [the report states].

MSNBC notes that the report, in a comment that directly goes against statements made by President Bush and senior cabinet members, says the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have united otherwise-divided Muslim extremists and given terrorists organizations like Al Qaeda a boost by "raising their stature."

In fact, Wired News reported the board as saying, the US has not only failed to separate "the vast majority of nonviolent Muslims from the radical-militant Islamist-Jihadists," but American efforts may have " achieved the opposite of what they intended."

Al Jazeera reported Thursday that the board called for the creation of a strategic communication's "apparatus" within the executive branch and "an overhaul of public diplomacy, public affairs and information dissemination efforts by the Pentagon and State Department."

If we really want to see the Muslim world as a whole [the report states], and the Arabic-speaking world in particular, move more toward our understanding of moderation and tolerance, we must reassure Muslims that this does not mean that they must submit to the American way.

As columnist Thomas Freidman of The New York Times wrote Monday in an opinion piece, the lack of planning and a 'clear channel of communication to the Muslim world' means that the US is losing the PR war to people that "saw off the heads of other Muslims."

Wars are fought for political ends. Soldiers can only do so much. And the last mile in every war is about claiming the political fruits. The bad guys in Iraq can lose every mile on every road, but if they beat America on the last mile – because they are able to intimidate better than America is able to coordinate, protect, inform, invest and motivate – they will win and America will lose.

The New York Times reported last Wednesday that although the board's report does not constitute official government policy, it captures "the essential themes of a debate that is now roiling not just the Defense Department but the entire United States government."


http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1129/dailyUpdate.html



I was wondering how people believe that they hate our freedom, it doesnt even make sense, and what is incredible, there is people who really believes it.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
Islamic fundamentalists hate most our culture. Its decadence, excesses and secularism. Freedom's twin is western culture and even on a good day I think most of us are embarrassed.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Re: RE: 'They hate our policies, not our freedom'

tamarin said:
Islamic fundamentalists hate most our culture. Its decadence, excesses and secularism. Freedom's twin is western culture and even on a good day I think most of us are embarrassed.

In that respect Islamic fundamentalists aren't that different from Christian fundamentalists.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Re: RE: 'They hate our policies, not our freedom'

earth_as_one said:
tamarin said:
Islamic fundamentalists hate most our culture. Its decadence, excesses and secularism. Freedom's twin is western culture and even on a good day I think most of us are embarrassed.

In that respect Islamic fundamentalists aren't that different from Christian fundamentalists.


It is incredible how much they have the same regards to each other, it is even funny.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
You have the Islamic fundamentalists, the Christian fundamentalists and the secular fundamentalists. They're all a little crazy and all determined to place their stamp on the future. The global community is increasingly witnessing the consequences of cultural dogmatism. Policy is a minor part of the nasty business.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
42
48
SW Ontario
Logic 7 said:
'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the report says]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.'

They can voice their objections all they want, but when they flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon they finally crossed the line.

Also, how can they complain about the support of Tyrannies when they vote those tyrannies in first chance they get. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have constitutions subserviant to Sharia law...you don't get much more tyrranical than that. Hezboallah was making huge political inroads in Lebanon before, and is purportedly in a position to do even better now. Then there's Hamas. When the American public talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, they're not being hypocritical, they're being naive.

Also, using support for Israel as an excuse for anger against the U.S. is too American centric. It ignores the worldwide Jihad against nations and peoples who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or U.S. foreign policy. That aspect is always conveniently ignored.

This report is worth less than my cat's puke I just had to clean up, and much more disgusting.

I was wondering how people believe that they hate our freedom, it doesnt even make sense, and what is incredible, there is people who really believes it.

It makes perfect sense and I and others have already explained it to you in past threads. Why do you act like it's still a big mystery?

It's not brain surgery. Just ask the Jihadi's, they'll be happy to explain it to you themselves...they're not shy about it.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Just the Facts said:
They can voice their objections all they want, but when they flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon they finally crossed the line.

Who are they?
...Some of the terrorists did not seem to match the profiles of past suicide terrorists as young, poor, and uneducated. However the "muscle" hijackers, as opposed to the pilots, were between 20 and 28 years old and most were unmarried and without familial attachments. According to page 231 of the report, fifteen of the terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. The remaining four came from Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Lebanon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizers_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

America's ally Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressed societies in the world. They are way worse than Texas or even Georgia :)

Also, how can they complain about the support of Tyrannies when they vote those tyrannies in first chance they get. You are confused. If you are referring to Iranians, then you would be just as misinformed when you thought the hijackers were from Iraq, but that was wrong too.

If the idiot box told you the hijackers were from Moose Jaw, I bet you would support invading Saskatchewan.

You are right that most of the 9/11 hijackers came from tyrannies, but you are wrong that they get to elect their tyrants. The Saudi King inherits his absolute monarchy and has close ties to President Bush. Egypt's absolute has fake elections. They are even more of a sham than the US's. Egypt's dictator has never been defeated. He's been in power for decades. Egypt is another American ally.


Both Iraq and Afghanistan have constitutions subserviant to Sharia law...you don't get much more tyrranical than that. And American law is subservient to the almighty dollar. At least when it comes to elections, Iranians have more than two similar choices preselected by big money.

Hezboallah was making huge political inroads in Lebanon before, and is purportedly in a position to do even better now. The more Israel attacks Lebanon and Hezbollah kicks Israel's butt in response, the more popular Hezbollah becomes to the people on the recieving end of American bombs dropped by Israeli pilots.

Then there's Hamas. When the American public talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, they're not being hypocritical, they're being naive. Why because the Palestinians selected their own candidate rather than candidate selected by Israel or the US? At least Palestinians had a fair vote. America's elections have been scams for some time.

Also, using support for Israel as an excuse for anger against the U.S. is too American centric. It ignores the worldwide Jihad against nations and peoples who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or U.S. foreign policy. That aspect is always conveniently ignored. Excuse me, but American tax dollars bought those bombs Israel dropped. Those planes??? American tax dollars too. What Israel does with American tax dollars is also America's responsibility.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
42
48
SW Ontario
earth_as_one said:
Just the Facts said:
They can voice their objections all they want, but when they flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon they finally crossed the line.

Who are they?
...Some of the terrorists did not seem to match the profiles of past suicide terrorists as young, poor, and uneducated. However the "muscle" hijackers, as opposed to the pilots, were between 20 and 28 years old and most were unmarried and without familial attachments. According to page 231 of the report, fifteen of the terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. The remaining four came from Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Lebanon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizers_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

America's ally Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressed societies in the world. They are way worse than Texas or even Georgia :)

Also, how can they complain about the support of Tyrannies when they vote those tyrannies in first chance they get. You are confused. If you are referring to Iranians, then you would be just as misinformed when you thought the hijackers were from Iraq, but that was wrong too.

If the idiot box told you the hijackers were from Moose Jaw, I bet you would support invading Saskatchewan.

You are right that most of the 9/11 hijackers came from tyrannies, but you are wrong that they get to elect their tyrants. The Saudi King inherits his absolute monarchy and has close ties to President Bush. Egypt's absolute has fake elections. They are even more of a sham than the US's. Egypt's dictator has never been defeated. He's been in power for decades. Egypt is another American ally.


Both Iraq and Afghanistan have constitutions subserviant to Sharia law...you don't get much more tyrranical than that. And American law is subservient to the almighty dollar. At least when it comes to elections, Iranians have more than two similar choices preselected by big money.

Hezboallah was making huge political inroads in Lebanon before, and is purportedly in a position to do even better now. The more Israel attacks Lebanon and Hezbollah kicks Israel's butt in response, the more popular Hezbollah becomes to the people on the recieving end of American bombs dropped by Israeli pilots.

Then there's Hamas. When the American public talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, they're not being hypocritical, they're being naive. Why because the Palestinians selected their own candidate rather than candidate selected by Israel or the US? At least Palestinians had a fair vote. America's elections have been scams for some time.

Also, using support for Israel as an excuse for anger against the U.S. is too American centric. It ignores the worldwide Jihad against nations and peoples who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or U.S. foreign policy. That aspect is always conveniently ignored. Excuse me, but American tax dollars bought those bombs Israel dropped. Those planes??? American tax dollars too. What Israel does with American tax dollars is also America's responsibility.

:D I think you better chill out and read my post again. None of your responses have anything remotely to do with the points I was making.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Just the Facts said:
Logic 7 said:
'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the report says]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.'

They can voice their objections all they want, but when they flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon they finally crossed the line.

Also, how can they complain about the support of Tyrannies when they vote those tyrannies in first chance they get. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have constitutions subserviant to Sharia law...you don't get much more tyrranical than that. Hezboallah was making huge political inroads in Lebanon before, and is purportedly in a position to do even better now. Then there's Hamas. When the American public talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, they're not being hypocritical, they're being naive.

Also, using support for Israel as an excuse for anger against the U.S. is too American centric. It ignores the worldwide Jihad against nations and peoples who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or U.S. foreign policy. That aspect is always conveniently ignored.

This report is worth less than my cat's puke I just had to clean up, and much more disgusting.

I was wondering how people believe that they hate our freedom, it doesnt even make sense, and what is incredible, there is people who really believes it.

It makes perfect sense and I and others have already explained it to you in past threads. Why do you act like it's still a big mystery?

It's not brain surgery. Just ask the Jihadi's, they'll be happy to explain it to you themselves...they're not shy about it.



I am sorry, but you can't use 9-11 as an exemple , since there is no evidence that alqueada is behind 9-11.And nothing in what you say, prove they hate our freedom, it is about time, guys like you realize this, and it is urgent, even people from the right admit the same.
 

The Project Man

Liquer'd Up & Lash'n Out!
Aug 22, 2006
184
0
16
Pennsylvania
Keep it simple.

1)You and the nieghbor, 2)the board game RISK, 3)a child's cartoon "Pinky and the Brain".

1) You and the people on the very same street have very simular lives, but i'm am sure you do not see eye to eye on every issue. Would even argue over religion. Come to blows over your children.

2) As far as the US involvement in other countries. Its the game of risk. If you are able to influence others with tax dollars, planes, bombs. This saves you from having to occupy and, even tougher, hold on to territories to surround your enemies.

3) PINKY a.k.a. T.Blair: " Gee Brain! What do you want to do tonight?"
THE BRAIN a.k.a. G>W.: " Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Plan to take over the world!

People are, by nature, combative, ignorant to the needs of "OTHERS" and selfish. "OTHERS" may be the guy down the street, the fans of the rival, or Polyreligous(My own term for Political and Religous differences.) and finacial gains.

In regard to the oppressive governments. We, I being a US citizen, put them in power to serve our needs, at the time. As it will always be. If we can not own it we will rule it one-way or the other.

WTC....public jury is still out on that. See a film called Loose Change. You can view it on WWW.YOUTUBE.COM in segments.

Lastly, do you really think the "Haves" really worry about what the "Have-nots" think. There agendas will be pushed until WE do something.

Thank You for your time.
 

feronia

Time Out
Jul 19, 2006
252
0
16
Re: RE: 'They hate our policies, not our freedom'

The Project Man said:
3) PINKY a.k.a. T.Blair: " Gee Brain! What do you want to do tonight?"
THE BRAIN a.k.a. G>W.: " Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Plan to take over the world!

Looney Toon
 

feronia

Time Out
Jul 19, 2006
252
0
16
Re: RE: 'They hate our policies, not our freedom'

The Project Man said:
Cartoon? Pinky & the get out.....


You said keep it simple. Pinkey is as simple as it gets, I love it. Cartoons are a great look at politics in a simplistic view. Don't you think?
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
42
48
SW Ontario
Logic 7 said:
I am sorry, but you can't use 9-11 as an exemple , since there is no evidence that alqueada is behind 9-11.

:roll: No evidence? :laughing3:

And nothing in what you say, prove they hate our freedom, it is about time, guys like you realize this, and it is urgent, even people from the right admit the same.

You're right, but it's not what I say. It's what they say. The terrorists and their sympathisers are not shy, they are quite open about their motives and viewpoints.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
The inequities in American foreign policy

started long before 9/11. The overthrow of the Iranian government and the 20 year support of one of the worst despots,the Shah of Iran, was long before 9/11. The shooting down of the Iranian airliner that killed close to 300 people was before 9/11.

The very one-sided support of Israel started long before 9/11.

The invasion and bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq were just icing on the cake.

American foreign policy? Is there such a thing, or is it just anything that is good for Israel?
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Just the Facts said:
Logic 7 said:
I am sorry, but you can't use 9-11 as an exemple , since there is no evidence that alqueada is behind 9-11.

:roll: No evidence? :laughing3:

And nothing in what you say, prove they hate our freedom, it is about time, guys like you realize this, and it is urgent, even people from the right admit the same.

You're right, but it's not what I say. It's what they say. The terrorists and their sympathisers are not shy, they are quite open about their motives and viewpoints.


Exactly there is no evidence at all, even on fbi web site, oussama bin laden isnt even wanted for 9-11.Here is the link.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm



Where exactly terrorist has speculate they hate our freedom? show it to me now.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
#juan said:
The inequities in American foreign policy

started long before 9/11. The overthrow of the Iranian government and the 20 year support of one of the worst despots,the Shah of Iran, was long before 9/11. The shooting down of the Iranian airliner that killed close to 300 people was before 9/11.

The very one-sided support of Israel started long before 9/11.

The invasion and bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq were just icing on the cake.

American foreign policy? Is there such a thing, or is it just anything that is good for Israel?


Everything usa are doing right now, was planned way before bush got into office in 2000, PNACs documents support this.

The shooting down of the iran airliner shows the crediblity already of the United states, it is terrorism , when it fits their policy, it is self defense, when its also fit their policy.RIght there , you have the reason why , they are not a greath nation,and they never will gain and win support around the world, except from corrupt politiciens.
 

Gonzo

Electoral Member
Dec 5, 2004
997
1
18
Was Victoria, now Ottawa
I agree, terrorist don't hate our "freedom". As long as there are poor countries in the world, and north america hoards all the wealth, there will be terrorists. Bush is a lier when he says they "hate our (americas) freedom." They hate american imperialism and america policing the world.