Oh my! What have their heroes been up to?

zoofer · Aug 5, 2006

What is great about propaganda is that the delusional turkeys take it at face value, run with the lies and then ignore it when the facts come to light. :roll:

Qana, revisited

National Post
Published: Friday, August 04, 2006
On Thursday, Israel apologized for last weekend's bombing of an apartment building in Qana, Lebanon, in which more than two dozen civilians were killed. As a result of faulty military intelligence, Israel believed the building was being used as a "hiding place" for terrorists. In fact, it was a refuge for innocent men, women and children.

But while Israel has admitted its role in these deaths, the terror organization Hezbollah has not. Hezbollah's cowardly practice of hiding behind human shields was the reason the Israel Defense Force (IDF) began bombing Qana in the first place. Since the beginning of this war, Hezbollah has sought to maximize civilian deaths on both sides, not only by firing rockets at the heart of Israeli cities, but also by firing those rockets from inside Lebanese homes and apartment buildings -- thereby ensuring more civilian casualties when Israel protects itself by striking back at the rocket launchers.

All night before the deadly pre-dawn raid by Israeli jets and helicopters, Hezbollah was attacking northern Israel from Qana. Just hours after Israel's counterattack, the IDF released video footage showing rockets streaking skyward from the immediate vicinity of the building it would later bomb.

There is also evidence to suggest that Hezbollah callously imported corpses from elsewhere to pump up the Qana body count -- a macabre and cynical ploy allegedly engineered for the benefit of international reporters.

Initially, 57 people were said to have died in the Qana tragedy. But many analysts who have seen the footage point out that some of the dead pulled from the collapsed apartment were in an advanced state of decomposition, far more so than if they had died scant hours earlier. Tellingly, the Lebanese Health Ministry and Human Rights Watch have both said that they could confirm only 28 of the 57 deaths originally reported.

Twenty-eight civilian deaths is certainly horrible enough -- especially when 16 of them are children. But this total is less than half the figure originally reported.

Israel's terrorist enemies have used such tactics before. During the 2002 Battle of Bethlehem, which began after Israel lifted a Palestinian siege at the Church of the Nativity, a fearsome firefight occurring on that town's streets. Palestinians claimed Israeli forces had shelled a hospital and killed dozens of defenceless patients. Later it was discovered, however, that most of the dead were in fact corpses disinterred from a nearby cemetery and smuggled into the hospital -- likely in the back of ambulances -- to be strewn among the damage and so lend credibility to Palestinian propaganda claims that a civilian slaughter had occurred.

Similar stunts were attempted during the so-called "massacre" at Jenin, also in 2002. After terrorists had attacked Israel, they scurried back into the West Bank refugee settlement of Jenin -- from which they had launched 23 suicide attacks in the preceding 18 months. IDF units pursued. A vicious house-by-house battle ensued in which nearly two dozen Israeli soldiers were killed -- 13 in a single ambush in which women, claiming that they needed the soldiers' help to protect their children, lured the IDF into the firing zone.

But as is alleged to be the case at Qana, initial civilian-death claims -- Palestinains originally said hundereds had been killed -- were exaggerated. Even among the 52 non-combatants believed to have actually died in the fighting, later investigation revealed that many had perished, not at the hands of Israeli troops, but in the blasts of booby-traps set by Palestinian terrorists themselves to defend their hideouts.

Despite this, international media and organizations such as the Red Cross and the UN quickly accepted the claims by terror organizations of widespread civilian losses at Bethlehem and Jenin, and never bothered to correct the record when facts proved their reports unjustified.

Whatever the body count -- 28, 57 or a number in between -- what happened at Qana was a tragedy. But tragic mistakes are a part of every conflict. War is hell, which is exactly why Israel should do everything necessary to ensure this is the last one fought on its borders for a long time.

It also should be remembered that only one side in this dispute -- Hezbollah -- is deliberately targeting civilians. Using human shields and allegedly digging up dead children so they can be sent to Qana and used as political props are despicable acts -- but also acts that would be entirely in keeping with its nihilist creed.

The episode offers one more reminder why the world must give Israel the time it needs to subdue this dangerous terrorist group and ensure it is never allowed to plunge the region into warfare again.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=77319c51-30f8-45d2-b835-b9be91ce94d2

Kreskin · Aug 5, 2006

You actually believe in your mind that those who don't want more terrorists created by the neocon kill-to-create-more-terrorists program are siding with the terrorists? 100,000 hezbollah supporters gathering in Iraq is a good thing? Give the logic-lid a shake my friend.

Mogz · Aug 5, 2006

zoofer said:
What is great about propaganda is that the delusional turkeys take it at face value, run with the lies and then ignore it when the facts come to light. :roll:

Qana, revisited

National Post
Published: Friday, August 04, 2006
On Thursday, Israel apologized for last weekend's bombing of an apartment building in Qana, Lebanon, in which more than two dozen civilians were killed. As a result of faulty military intelligence, Israel believed the building was being used as a "hiding place" for terrorists. In fact, it was a refuge for innocent men, women and children.

But while Israel has admitted its role in these deaths, the terror organization Hezbollah has not. Hezbollah's cowardly practice of hiding behind human shields was the reason the Israel Defense Force (IDF) began bombing Qana in the first place. Since the beginning of this war, Hezbollah has sought to maximize civilian deaths on both sides, not only by firing rockets at the heart of Israeli cities, but also by firing those rockets from inside Lebanese homes and apartment buildings -- thereby ensuring more civilian casualties when Israel protects itself by striking back at the rocket launchers.

All night before the deadly pre-dawn raid by Israeli jets and helicopters, Hezbollah was attacking northern Israel from Qana. Just hours after Israel's counterattack, the IDF released video footage showing rockets streaking skyward from the immediate vicinity of the building it would later bomb.

There is also evidence to suggest that Hezbollah callously imported corpses from elsewhere to pump up the Qana body count -- a macabre and cynical ploy allegedly engineered for the benefit of international reporters.

Initially, 57 people were said to have died in the Qana tragedy. But many analysts who have seen the footage point out that some of the dead pulled from the collapsed apartment were in an advanced state of decomposition, far more so than if they had died scant hours earlier. Tellingly, the Lebanese Health Ministry and Human Rights Watch have both said that they could confirm only 28 of the 57 deaths originally reported.

Twenty-eight civilian deaths is certainly horrible enough -- especially when 16 of them are children. But this total is less than half the figure originally reported.

Israel's terrorist enemies have used such tactics before. During the 2002 Battle of Bethlehem, which began after Israel lifted a Palestinian siege at the Church of the Nativity, a fearsome firefight occurring on that town's streets. Palestinians claimed Israeli forces had shelled a hospital and killed dozens of defenceless patients. Later it was discovered, however, that most of the dead were in fact corpses disinterred from a nearby cemetery and smuggled into the hospital -- likely in the back of ambulances -- to be strewn among the damage and so lend credibility to Palestinian propaganda claims that a civilian slaughter had occurred.

Similar stunts were attempted during the so-called "massacre" at Jenin, also in 2002. After terrorists had attacked Israel, they scurried back into the West Bank refugee settlement of Jenin -- from which they had launched 23 suicide attacks in the preceding 18 months. IDF units pursued. A vicious house-by-house battle ensued in which nearly two dozen Israeli soldiers were killed -- 13 in a single ambush in which women, claiming that they needed the soldiers' help to protect their children, lured the IDF into the firing zone.

But as is alleged to be the case at Qana, initial civilian-death claims -- Palestinains originally said hundereds had been killed -- were exaggerated. Even among the 52 non-combatants believed to have actually died in the fighting, later investigation revealed that many had perished, not at the hands of Israeli troops, but in the blasts of booby-traps set by Palestinian terrorists themselves to defend their hideouts.

Despite this, international media and organizations such as the Red Cross and the UN quickly accepted the claims by terror organizations of widespread civilian losses at Bethlehem and Jenin, and never bothered to correct the record when facts proved their reports unjustified.

Whatever the body count -- 28, 57 or a number in between -- what happened at Qana was a tragedy. But tragic mistakes are a part of every conflict. War is hell, which is exactly why Israel should do everything necessary to ensure this is the last one fought on its borders for a long time.

It also should be remembered that only one side in this dispute -- Hezbollah -- is deliberately targeting civilians. Using human shields and allegedly digging up dead children so they can be sent to Qana and used as political props are despicable acts -- but also acts that would be entirely in keeping with its nihilist creed.

The episode offers one more reminder why the world must give Israel the time it needs to subdue this dangerous terrorist group and ensure it is never allowed to plunge the region into warfare again.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=77319c51-30f8-45d2-b835-b9be91ce94d2

Click to expand...

zoofer has touched on an important issue when looking at any war involving Muslim zealots. They don't care about hiding behind civilians and/or using civilian locations as operating sites. As a result, civilian body counts rise. I'm always dubious about claims of innocent civilians being murdered by any Army, whether it be Israel, the U.S., or even Canada. The sad fact remains that Muslim extremists care nothing for civilians, they're blinded by zeal and don't care how many of their following countrymen die in wars they perpetuate. I.e. blowing up a VBIED in Kabul to kill 1 coalition soldier, yet in turn killing 20 or 30 Afghan civilians as well.

Kreskin · Aug 5, 2006

Mogz, that's just simply obvious. The real issue of the entire debate is how effective is the war on terror? I don't know what everyone else thinks but I believe the existing strategy of pre-emptive war and killing anything and everything to get to the criminals is only creating more terrorists. Zoofer implies that anyone who disagrees with the nuts in Washington or the government of Israel is pro-Hezbollah. If that's what he thinks he might as well talk to himself because the pinko schtick makes no sense at all.

cortex · Aug 5, 2006

The war on terror is an oxymoronic phrase. Its State terror versus amateur terror. Terrorism is not an ideology its a tactic used best of all by nations states --like the US and the UK and Isreal and many others. Waging a war on terror is like waging a war on war.

The issue is that Isreal is and has been behaving as a rogue state. Isreal and its people need moral leadership. They have to be taught the basics of civilized behaviour if they are to be respected as a nation that is worthy of respect. They need our help not our support. So lets stop --supporting them --and start teaching them so that one day they may trully be able to enter the clique of the goodie good nations of the world.

tamarin · Aug 5, 2006

So is there a real solution to the Mid-East problem or are we to be forever drawn in by their non-stop intrigues and mischief? I must admit I've lost patience with them all. I just don't take any of their positions, negotiations, deals, promises or offerings seriously. The region is mightily phucked up. I wonder what would happen if we all just walked away.

annabattler · Aug 5, 2006

I don't think any real "peace" can be had in the Mid East.
Perhaps "negotiated' armistices, but not a problem-solving peace.

sanch · Aug 5, 2006

First Canada should do what Cortex suggested and treat Israel just like any other Middle Eastern state. The interests and lives of Jews in the Middle East need to be protected. There have been pogroms that have been instituted against the Jews throughout the Muslim world over the last 100 years and this justifies them having their own state as that is the only way they will be protected. Jews, just like the Palestinians, have been displaced by Arab states and their policies. The responsibility should fall on the Arab states to offer Palestinians viable economic alternatives and new homes. It should be acknowledged that the Palestinians are victims of the same history in the Middle East that brought the Jews there to Israel.

Israelis justify their actions by saying the world has abandoned them before and so they need to be the ones who make the decisions about their security. The Israelis need to be assured that there is an objective and fair body that is looking out for all human interests in the Middle East. They need to understand that “rogue actions” like destroying Palestinian homes, crossing borders to illegally kidnap Muslims, killing civilians, building illegal settlements will not be tolerated by the western world they claim to want to be a part of.

Harper in this sense has sent Israel the wrong message. First he is supporting them by calling their response a measured one. Now he is giving one speech in Quebec where he is retracting his support somewhat and another in Ontario where he is saying he is not beholden to special interest groups.

There should be a period where as Cortex said Israel should be in transition and its policies monitored for a period of time. An international force and commission should protect Israel during this period.

BitWhys · Aug 5, 2006

RE: Oh my! What have thei

Anyone who thinks this offensive is weakening Hezbollah's long term prospects is a fool.

BitWhys · Aug 5, 2006

RE: Oh my! What have thei

and regarding the opening post, the irony is the Harper Choirboy Revue article zoofer posted continues to stovepipe the "human shield" defense when the IDF itself has backed off it in this case.

Caleb-Dain Matton · Aug 5, 2006

Mogz said:
zoofer said:

What is great about propaganda is that the delusional turkeys take it at face value, run with the lies and then ignore it when the facts come to light. :roll:

Qana, revisited

National Post
Published: Friday, August 04, 2006
On Thursday, Israel apologized for last weekend's bombing of an apartment building in Qana, Lebanon, in which more than two dozen civilians were killed. As a result of faulty military intelligence, Israel believed the building was being used as a "hiding place" for terrorists. In fact, it was a refuge for innocent men, women and children.

But while Israel has admitted its role in these deaths, the terror organization Hezbollah has not. Hezbollah's cowardly practice of hiding behind human shields was the reason the Israel Defense Force (IDF) began bombing Qana in the first place. Since the beginning of this war, Hezbollah has sought to maximize civilian deaths on both sides, not only by firing rockets at the heart of Israeli cities, but also by firing those rockets from inside Lebanese homes and apartment buildings -- thereby ensuring more civilian casualties when Israel protects itself by striking back at the rocket launchers.

All night before the deadly pre-dawn raid by Israeli jets and helicopters, Hezbollah was attacking northern Israel from Qana. Just hours after Israel's counterattack, the IDF released video footage showing rockets streaking skyward from the immediate vicinity of the building it would later bomb.

There is also evidence to suggest that Hezbollah callously imported corpses from elsewhere to pump up the Qana body count -- a macabre and cynical ploy allegedly engineered for the benefit of international reporters.

Initially, 57 people were said to have died in the Qana tragedy. But many analysts who have seen the footage point out that some of the dead pulled from the collapsed apartment were in an advanced state of decomposition, far more so than if they had died scant hours earlier. Tellingly, the Lebanese Health Ministry and Human Rights Watch have both said that they could confirm only 28 of the 57 deaths originally reported.

Twenty-eight civilian deaths is certainly horrible enough -- especially when 16 of them are children. But this total is less than half the figure originally reported.

Israel's terrorist enemies have used such tactics before. During the 2002 Battle of Bethlehem, which began after Israel lifted a Palestinian siege at the Church of the Nativity, a fearsome firefight occurring on that town's streets. Palestinians claimed Israeli forces had shelled a hospital and killed dozens of defenceless patients. Later it was discovered, however, that most of the dead were in fact corpses disinterred from a nearby cemetery and smuggled into the hospital -- likely in the back of ambulances -- to be strewn among the damage and so lend credibility to Palestinian propaganda claims that a civilian slaughter had occurred.

Similar stunts were attempted during the so-called "massacre" at Jenin, also in 2002. After terrorists had attacked Israel, they scurried back into the West Bank refugee settlement of Jenin -- from which they had launched 23 suicide attacks in the preceding 18 months. IDF units pursued. A vicious house-by-house battle ensued in which nearly two dozen Israeli soldiers were killed -- 13 in a single ambush in which women, claiming that they needed the soldiers' help to protect their children, lured the IDF into the firing zone.

But as is alleged to be the case at Qana, initial civilian-death claims -- Palestinains originally said hundereds had been killed -- were exaggerated. Even among the 52 non-combatants believed to have actually died in the fighting, later investigation revealed that many had perished, not at the hands of Israeli troops, but in the blasts of booby-traps set by Palestinian terrorists themselves to defend their hideouts.

Despite this, international media and organizations such as the Red Cross and the UN quickly accepted the claims by terror organizations of widespread civilian losses at Bethlehem and Jenin, and never bothered to correct the record when facts proved their reports unjustified.

Whatever the body count -- 28, 57 or a number in between -- what happened at Qana was a tragedy. But tragic mistakes are a part of every conflict. War is hell, which is exactly why Israel should do everything necessary to ensure this is the last one fought on its borders for a long time.

It also should be remembered that only one side in this dispute -- Hezbollah -- is deliberately targeting civilians. Using human shields and allegedly digging up dead children so they can be sent to Qana and used as political props are despicable acts -- but also acts that would be entirely in keeping with its nihilist creed.

The episode offers one more reminder why the world must give Israel the time it needs to subdue this dangerous terrorist group and ensure it is never allowed to plunge the region into warfare again.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=77319c51-30f8-45d2-b835-b9be91ce94d2

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

zoofer has touched on an important issue when looking at any war involving Muslim zealots. They don't care about hiding behind civilians and/or using civilian locations as operating sites. As a result, civilian body counts rise. I'm always dubious about claims of innocent civilians being murdered by any Army, whether it be Israel, the U.S., or even Canada. The sad fact remains that Muslim extremists care nothing for civilians, they're blinded by zeal and don't care how many of their following countrymen die in wars they perpetuate. I.e. blowing up a VBIED in Kabul to kill 1 coalition soldier, yet in turn killing 20 or 30 Afghan civilians as well.

Damn, you're right American elite terrorists did the same thing when they hid behind the World Trade Centers.

Toro · Aug 5, 2006