ISRAELS BLANK CHEQUE

Retired_Can_Soldier

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Mar 19, 2006
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I am willing to acknowledge that Israel has made some serios mistakes since it's creation. I am also willing to acknowledge that the settlements were wrong.

So there you go. I admit it. They have fault, they're not perfect and in fact at times they have been bloody arrogant.

That does not justify suicide bombing and quite grankly my dear Hamas and the martyr brigades can kiss my butt. They are killers, molesters of the truth, abominations.

Go ahead and support them. Some folks just don't get it.
M
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
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I agree RCS, but both sides need to take a leap of faith, Hammas must lay down their weapons and denounce violence and Israel must take a breather from retalliation. Neither can have lasting peace with out giving up something.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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They wern't mistakes RCS, they were intentional planned operations. Like all apologists you tamper with the truth.
And could you explain the difference between a dead Palistinian and a dead Isreali? And why should one side lay down thier weapons and not the other?
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Darkbeaver, The West did force a False Choice on
Palestine. Offering a two-state solution at the
beginning appeared fair to Westerners but of course
scared the hell out of residents already there, much
like the Muslim immigration in Europe and the Mexican
immigration to the States.

But as irony defeats all partisan facts and logic,
the False Choice of a Two-State Solution in all its
paradox has transformed itself into the ONLY SOLUTION
now.

You and I have certainly seen how the Arab world
has let its Palestinian brother down.

And we have certainly seen the Israel planned wish
to take over the West Bank with the settlements.

And we certainly saw that Jordan between 1948 and
1967 gave no sovereignty to Palestine, nor did any
significant Arab Marshall Plan of oil dollars come to
make Palestine a mentally health functioning society.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Re: RE: ISRAELS BLANK CHEQUE

darkbeaver said:
They wern't mistakes RCS, they were intentional planned operations. Like all apologists you tamper with the truth.
And could you explain the difference between a dead Palistinian and a dead Isreali? And why should one side lay down thier weapons and not the other?

Hey Beav. I am not tampering with anything. I agree that the cycle of violence must stop and I have seen incredible restraint in the part of Israel when provoked.

I am neither an apologist nor a conspirator.

Answer this. Do you find it fashionable or trendy to be chicken little.

M
 

Canucklehead

Moderator
Apr 6, 2005
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Retired_Can_Soldier said:
I am willing to acknowledge that Israel has made some serios mistakes since it's creation. I am also willing to acknowledge that the settlements were wrong.

So there you go. I admit it. They have fault, they're not perfect and in fact at times they have been bloody arrogant.

That does not justify suicide bombing and quite grankly my dear Hamas and the martyr brigades can kiss my butt. They are killers, molesters of the truth, abominations.

Go ahead and support them. Some folks just don't get it.
M

I guess they wouldn't be killers if they had helicopters, tanks and nukes, then, eh? How hard is it to understand that these people are using the resources available to them? Unfortunately, in the absence of traditional weapons, they use themselves and IED's instead.

If anyone attacked Canada and was faced with a choice of domination by a foreign power and forfeiting their life for the country, well...the choice should be obvious regardless of the fact that preference would be to use a traditional weapon where there was at least a chance for survival after an attack. Anyone unwilling to die for their country in the event of invasion does not deserve to enjoy citizenship, imho.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Now we're getting into the Moral Equality issue
of equating State Militarism with Individual Terrorism.

Individual Terrorism, more than State Militarism has
the promise of killing us all, for many reasons that
elude the zeitgeist of thinking on this subject.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

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I don't often do this but FYI. Though I doubt you will even read it.

HOMICIDE BOMBERS
Another mass murder on the streets of an Israeli city. Another devotee to the pagan god of pain and death bows at the altar of bloodlust and slaughters the innocent. For this is what suicide bombings most certainly are.

Spare me the nonsense about this being the only weapon the Palestinians have. Actually, they have tens of thousands of guns, given to them by the Israelis when there was a chance of peace. This, when the Oslo Accord -- perhaps the most generous land offer given by any victorious nation in history -- was close to acceptance.

They also have a major arsenal provided by Syria, Iran, Lebanon, several gulf states and other Muslim nations that hate the "Zionist regime" far more than they love their own people.

The Palestinians are armed to the teeth. So much so that they frequently kill their own people during internal wars and political disagreements.

So if Palestinian militants wanted to launch armed raids into Israel they could do so. Indeed, they did this for many years -- killing children on a kibbutz, massacring old people at a Passover Seder, shooting a mother and her children as they hid under the blankets in their bed.

Let us be candid here. With so many men and women in uniform in Israel, it is significant that Palestinian terrorists go to such lengths to attack and kill those who do not have guns and are not soldiers. It is pertinent that Palestinians who fought with their Arab allies in the 1973 war, for example, performed very badly against the Israel Defence Forces.

The suicide bomb (or "homicide bomb," as it should be known), is about something far more than armed resistance.

Witness the attacks in Britain last July. Nothing was achieved and Britain is, anyway, a democracy that gives its Muslims full and absolute rights as citizens.

Or look at the number of suicide bombs used in Iraq, where Muslims kill Muslims with a grotesque glee and regularity. Is this because the various militia gangs in Baghdad are without arms? Certainly not. Nor is their cause the withdrawal of American troops or a struggle against what they perceive as oppression.

The suicide bomb and its inherent sense of martyrdom has become not a means to an end but an end in itself. The act supersedes the action.

In other words, the sacrificial spilling of blood becomes the very statement, taking on a quite separate and special place in local folklore.

Innocent blood, too. There is something deeply psychotic about these young men and women -- for they are always young -- who scream for destruction. They take delight in hurting the harmless. Some 140 Israeli children have been murdered by terrorists in the past five years, and Hamas now label as "traitors" those Palestinians who express any regrets or condemnations.

Suicide bombers not only wipe out those around them but, as far as they are concerned, they wipe out the world. They are no more, nothing is anymore. It is the ultimate act of anger and hatred, not against Jews or Zionism or Israel as much as against themselves. A sick product of a sick culture.

There is no paradise for these wretches, no dancing virgins or sweets or bliss. Just an eternity without God or love or joy.

Their victims, however, face an entirely different future.

Remember those who perish at the clawing hands of the bomber but worry not for those who commit the crime. They were dead already, in mind and soul and heart
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Re: RE: ISRAELS BLANK CHEQUE

jimmoyer said:
Now we're getting into the Moral Equality issue
of equating State Militarism with Individual Terrorism.

Individual Terrorism, more than State Militarism has
the promise of killing us all, for many reasons that
elude the zeitgeist of thinking on this subject.

Your so blatantly wrong it's funny, tell me how many individual pipe bombs it takes to equal a tank, or how many car bombs it takes to equal a nuclear warhead, and how many a/ks does it take to equal an F18, get the picture.
State militarism IS terrorism, that's the purpose behind having a goddmamn military in the first place. If it's not terrifying and threatening then it's powerless. Individual terrorism is nothing compared to state military power in it's destructive force. :)
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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RCS I read the same piece before and it's apologist, read about the destruction of the Palestinian camps in Lebanon, where your heros shelled civilians for weeks and murdered thousands of innocent people while destroying thier homes and bisnesses.
 

darkbeaver

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The Israeli invasion of Lebanon 1982
by John Rose
1986

In my childhood I have suffered fear, hunger and humiliation when I passed from the Warsaw Ghetto, through labour camps, to Buchenwald. Today, as a citizen of Israel, I cannot accept the systematic destruction of cities, towns and refugee camps. I cannot accept the technocratic cruelty of the bombing, destroying and killing of human beings.

I hear too many familiar sounds today, sounds which are being amplified by the war. I hear “dirty Arabs” and I remember “dirty Jews”. I hear about “closed areas” and I remember ghettos and camps. I hear “two-legged beasts” and I remember “Untermenschen” (subhumans). I hear about tightening the siege, clearing the area, pounding the city into submission and I remember suffering, destruction, death, blood and murder ... Too many things in Israel remind me of too many things from my childhood.

These words are from a letter written by Dr Shlomo Shmelzman, a survivor of the Holocaust, to the press in Israel announcing his courageous hunger strike at the height of the bombing of West Beirut in Lebanon in August 1982. [1] The bombing of unarmed civilians and killing and maiming of children in response to alleged acts of “terrorism” has deep roots in the history of the Israeli state. Here is an entry dated 1 January 1948 from the Independence War Diary of David Ben-Gurion, one of the most famous of the founding-fathers of Zionism and a one-time prime minister of Israel:

There is no question as to whether a reaction is necessary or not ... Blowing up a house is not enough. What is necessary is cruel and strong reactions. We need precision in time, place and casualties. If we know the family, strike mercilessly, women and children included. Otherwise the reaction is inefficient. At the place of action there is no need to distinguish between guilty and innocent. Where there was no attack – we should not strike. [2]

“Cruel and strong reaction” reached new and ever more bloody heights in the summer of 1982. Israel bombed the living daylights out of West Beirut after launching a full-scale military invasion of Lebanon, slaughtering tens of thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese. The climax to this came in the chilling and systematic murder, one by one, of unarmed Palestinian men, women and children at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. This “cruel and strong reaction” was in response to the attempted assassination of Shlomo Argov, the Israeli ambassador to London.

In fact this invasion had long been anticipated in Israel. Three months earlier, in March 1982, the Israeli paper Ha’aretz had written:

Behind the official excuse of we shall not tolerate shelling or terrorist reactions’ lies a strategic view which holds that the physical annihilation of the PLO [Palestinian Liberation Organisation] has to be achieved. That is, not only must its fingers and hands in the West Bank be amputated (as is now being done with an iron fist), but its heart and head in Beirut must be dealt with. As Israel does not want the PLO as a partner for talks or as an interlocutor for any solution in the West Bank, the supporters of confrontation with the PLO hold that the logical continuation of the struggle with the PLO in the territories is in Lebanon. With the loss of its physical strength, in their opinion, the PLO will lose not only its hold over the territories but also its growing international status. [3]

The US government backed Israel to the hilt. Immediately before the invasion, General Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Defence Minister and the man most responsible for the prosecution of the war in Lebanon, visited Washington where he informed US Defence Secretary Casper Weinberger that Israel must act in Lebanon. Pentagon figures reveal a massive surges of military supplies from the United States to Israel in the first three months of 1982. Delivery of military goods was almost 50 per cent greater than in the preceding year.

These deliveries continued through June, and included “smart bombs” which were used with devastating effect in Beirut. One such bomb caused the instant destruction of an entire building, killing 100 people in an apparent effort to kill PLO leader Yasser Arafat, who was thought to be there.

(This has an uncanny similarity with the futile but nevertheless bloody US attempt in 1986 to bomb the building in Tripoli where allegedly Libyan leader Colonel Gadaffi was sheltering. The bomb succeeded only in killing one of his children and maiming others.)

The invasion of Lebanon had one other very useful side-effect for Israel too. While the bombing of Beirut was at its height, the Israeli military industries (Ta’as) came out with an extensive publicity campaign in the international press (Aviation Week etc) to extend the scope of sales of its bombs. The main feature was a display showing a jetplane dropping bombs with the heading: “Bombs you can count on to do what they’re supposed to do.” [4]

The first target of the invasion was the Palestinian camp of Rashidiyeh, south of Tyre, much of which was in rubble by the second day of the invasion. There was ineffectual resistance, but as an officer of the United Nations peacekeeping force, which was swept aside in the Israeli invasion, later remarked: “It was like shooting sparrows with cannon.” The nine thousand people of the camp either fled or were herded to the beach by the Israeli forces, where they could watch the destruction of much of what remained. All the teenage and adult males were blindfolded and bound, and taken to internment camps. [5]

www.doublestandards.org/roses1.html
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

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Mar 19, 2006
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The difference between the post I put up and yours is simple Beav. Mine is from a balanced well spoken author and journalist who does not always side with Israel.

Yours on the other hand (I did visit the link) is some dweeb with an anti establishment agenda.

Sorry Beav. Please bring something more credible than the internet trash you presented here.

Cheers
M.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Ya Ya like all mouthpieces of your kind you can't face the truth about your heros, and since you didn't leave us a link or even the authors name for your piece of crap we can't check out his angle or his credentials.