Harper got nothing done in Cancun

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Independent Palestine
CANCUN, Mexico (CP) - Canadians need to get used to the fact that they'll soon have to show a passport every time they want to go to the United States, even if it's just by car, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday.

Harper acknowledged at the end of two days of meetings with his U.S. and Mexican counterparts that there's no turning back on Washington's plan to demand so-called secure documentation at the border.

He also said little progress was made on other key issues, including softwood lumber.

On both these fronts, President George W. Bush is hamstrung by Congress, which is facing autumn elections. On the border, lawmakers seem content with the legislation as it stands. On softwood, Bush is under intense pressure from senators from states with strong lumber interests.

Harper did have a chance to get to know Bush in their first, face-to-face meeting since Harper took office,.

The prime minister said the Washington won't change on the border.

"I think we all know the consequences: a lot more difficult getting across the border, people finding they don't have documentation whether it's for business or for ordinary travel, they're going to find they do in fact need in the future," Harper said in a news conference following the meeting.

"I'm not sure Canadians are fully aware these requirements are coming."

Federal and provincial governments, along with Canadian business, have been furiously lobbying the United States to back down on legislation that would require all foreign visitors to produce a passport or secure document. It will also require U.S. citizens to carry those documents.

The biggest fear is that the number of Americans coming to Canada to shop, do business or attend conferences will drop drastically once the law comes into force. Only about 20 per cent of Americans have a passport.

"I cannot slow down the goods and services coming across, we depend on an enormous amount of product coming across our borders, so he ability to get it quickly is really key to our success," said Annette Verschuren, CEO of Home Depot Canada.

Officials say a secure" document would have security features that fall somewhere between a drivers license and a passport. The requirement is scheduled to come into effect for sea and air travellers by the end of this year, and by the end of 2007 for land crossings.

President George Bush left no doubt that it's full steam ahead on the plan.

"I intend to enforce that law," he said.

He added that he sympathizes with Canadians.

"Look, I understand this issue has created consternation," he said. "Your prime minister made it very clear to me that he's very worried that such an implementation of the law on the books will make it less likely that people will want to travel between our countries.

"But what I've told the prime minister and I've told President (Vicente) Fox is that we have an obligation to work very closely with our counterparts to provide a set of standards as to what will meet the obligations of the law. I believe this can be done in such a way that makes future travel, future relations stronger, not weaker."

He suggested a kind of swipe card might meet the requirement and actually ease the passage across the border. But even Washington has been unable to define internally what kind of documents its citizens should carry. It's faced with tough opposition to anything remotely resembling a national identity card.

Bush's response on the border issue was characteristic of the entire summit in Mexico. While Bush had lots of kind words for Harper and Canada, his government made no concessions.

On softwood, it was Harper who said he would ask Canadian officials to look at options for a resolution. Bush made no indication that he would meet Canada half way.

So what did Harper accomplish?

At the very least, it was a low-stress introduction to the world of high-level international meetings and, more importantly, a chance to get acquainted with Bush.

He and Bush seemed to have a cordial, friendly relationship and agreed they were coming from the same page when it came to core values.

It's a definite departure from the chill between the White House and prime ministers Jean Chretien and Paul Martin.

Harper's famous reserve was well on display in Cancun. He made no off-the-cuff remarks when speaking publicly, reading mostly from statements and taking great pains to repeat every comment in both French and English.

Bush took note of his all-business style.

"He's a very open, straightforward fella. If he's got a problem he's going to express it in a kind of way that's clear for everyone to understand," Bush remarked Friday. "And that's how I like to deal with people."

Even Harper admitted that he's not exactly one for small talk. In fact, he hinted that he swore during discussions with Bush.

"As some of you may know that sometimes I express myself, believe it or not, not only directly but also colourfully and not suited for public television," Harper told reporters.

Harper must be careful not to appear too chummy with Bush. Canadians have a poor opinion of the president, and in polls seem wary of any moves that seem to indicate Canada is following the U.S.

The third player in the two days of meetings was the outgoing Fox. The Mexican president's term finishes later this year, and he is facing similar difficulties to Canada in gaining any headway with the United States on key issues.

Mexico would like its citizens who work in the United States illegally to be accorded more rights.

Bush backs the idea of a guest-worker program that would allow Mexicans to work legally for a limited period. But, again, he is at the mercy of Congress and fellow Republicans are reluctant to agree to such a plan.

The three leaders agreed to strengthen the nascent Security and Prosperity Partnership. It's an accord that promotes security issues in the hemisphere, as well as examining ways to make North America more competitive in world markets.

One tangible result of the Cancun summit was the creation of a North American Competitiveness Council, a group of business people who will advise governments on trade strategies.


http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/WorldNewsArticle.htm?src=w033167A.xml
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
1
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PEI...for now
Well, with the passport thing. I could see it as some advantage in the future... Think of it:

Our dollar is stronger much like in the 80's, and the US's is lower (insert blame here)... tempting those to do cross-border shopping (I'm sure some of you remember that problem). With the passport thing, canadians would be stuck shopping on ourside since it's no longer accessable, keeping our economy going cause we can't spend our money elswhere.

I guess the cup is half full here.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
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Edmonton
RE: Harper got nothing do

I love all the armchair politicians on these forums. Harper did nothing cha cha cha. What would you have liked? Him to have gone down there and flipped out like a mental patient on Bush and Fox? I'm sorry, but there's this important thing called diplomacy, and frankly myself, nor anyone on these forums has any clue as to what that entails. You cast blame on Harper, yet you aren't in his shoes. You've also failed to realize that the Liberal Government left Canada-US relations in tatters, something Harper has to rebuild. In my opinion, he's doing a good job so far. Perhaps his trip to Meh-he-ho wasn't as productive as the pizza-pop eating, 1 hour photo, reality TV, masses would have liked, but he did more in the last few days that the Liberals did in years. Did you honestly expect a magical resolution to softwood lumber, Canadian ID cards, cross-border trade, and the murder in Mexico? If so, lower the bar folks, you're living in a bubble and placing too many expectations on the current Government of Canada. Lastly, what do you think Martin would have accomplished? Probably nothing, if anything he would have driven a deeper wedge between Canada and the U.S. Sure fine, hate the United States, hate Bush, think America is the epitome of hell-spawn, but in reality folks, they're our biggest trading partner, closest ally, and best friend we've got. Bitch and moan all you want, but Harper has a process he has to work through in order to get results. I personally think he'll get them for us, he's our best hope in a long time.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
204
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
RE: Harper got nothing do

You love yourself Mogz, you may not have a clue about diplomacy but I don't think it's fair or smart of you to assume that others here don't, tell us about something military Mogz,tell us about depleted uranium, or what it's like to be on oil industry security guard.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
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California
LOL has anyone tried to get a Canadian Passport these days?

It is like taking one of those Flight in Space things being offered...they require almost impossible feats such as affidavits from guarantors as to who you really are..... and the list is insane to match.....besides which you cannot pay a Guarantor for his/her services of signing a sheaf of ID papers.... it's a hoot!

The list is professionals of course, preferably those who have to take an Oath of Office themselves....and they tell me the people you ask are not allowed to request "reimbursement" for their sponsorship. HUH? Ever tried to get free service from a lawer?

Taken me a month so far and that is a "rush" job.

I think if anyone had the foresight they would convince both governments to do the biometrics route (eyes, facial configuration, and even ear placement)....as well as fingerprinting in a secure card which can't be duplicated. Along with birth certificates everyone should authomatically reorder these just like they do their driver's license...maybe even a small CD would suffice. Where are all the techie geeks out there??? The government needs your help!

I see millionaires being made out of this feature for future travel because whatever security measures they try...it's still on paper and if I was intent on fooling the government....paper is child's play these days. All the naysayers (including Bush) say biometric plastic is also easily duplicated....but not as easily as the paper
documents which are currently in use.

I wonder if any of these guys who make the rules live in the real world. Easily duplicated anythings are working for Vicente Fox of course.... he bases his financial economy on illegal migration.

If Canada/US make something up which works.....no doubt the EU would want to replicate the system....and thus we might have something which will work on a global basis with ease of carrying as well....from place to place.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Watching the three heads of state together on stage....

It didn't look like there were any unnecessary gestures of friendship going on there. The body language was stiff and way
formal in the sweating heat.

Harper shouldn't worry about cussing for Bush.... Bush has been caught off camera with some pretty wild words himself... he may have God in his life - but I think he keeps God in a cupboard for use on special occasions.

I was hoping both Harper and Bush would sort out Fox....who will be gone soon....but the guy is a complete thug and has sold out his slaves through migration....breaking up homes and families and insisting he get a share of the money they earn for his government.

I can't wait to see the back of him, but the next guy could be worse....who knows?
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
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38
Saint John N.B.
Harper didn't have to go to CanCun to get his latest marching orders from Bushie,but he will never turn down a free trip at our expense.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
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Both my wife and I got our passports in about two weeks

I suspect it would take a bit longer if I was living in a foreign country. The passport requirement at the border will be a problem for some. There will be people on both sides of the border that will drive eight hundred miles and arrive at the border unnaware of the requirement.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Juan

I think people are going to become more aware of this requirement now - at least the word is getting out here....but there will always be "some" folk ... missing the boat with the news.

Passport Canada promise 20 days plus travel time. I mailed my packet off to them overnight and they processed it in less than 20 days but they refused my sponsor. Everyone they had on their list of "ok folk" wanted to be paid for their services - it would have been easy to find one of them....but I finally asked the guy who handled my husband's financial matters because he was an ex-IRS man and I thought he would clear. He was merely a guy who had to say I was the fact in the picture, that he saw my driver license, my social security card, etc. etc.... to verify I was real.

They turned him down.... but let me know in 20 days as they promised. They are really pleasant to speak in in Gatineaux and are helpful, but their rules don't quite fit the U.S. people. Like bank managers down here.... there are none....banks are small little holes in the wall with a "manager" who rotates and never gets to know the patrons...so they can't guarantee anything.

Lawyers won't do anything for free....I don't know any police officers who know me well enough to guarantee anything, nor judges....my doctor just took me on less than a year ago so she isn't any good.... people move around so much it is difficult to get to know someone for any length of time.

It held up the process another two or three weeks, but I'll get it done...I just hope they don't lose my birth certificate....terrified to let the original go....

Silly thing about this is once I get my citizenship down here, I'll have to go through the same thing to get a U.S. one...

I don't understand government at all. It has been a real learning experience dealing with them. Very glad I speak English and fully understand the horror some people have to go through during immigration....especially when they are in a far away place and English is not their language....

I think everyone in the world should have a biometric ID which is kept up to date and we wouldn't have to do all of this....there must be some way to make them foolproof....(I think)...

What about a voice recognition system where you could just talk into a secure telephone hookup and have it "read" by the experts?
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
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Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Wednesday's Child, great post. Devil is in the details.

I'd like to add that any technology you come up
with will have its pros and cons.

It will make things more convenient.
It will let us sail
though a slow bureaucracy at the same time giving
that same bureaucracy much more power to control.

It will always be a double-edged sword.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Morning JimMoyer

I see you trying to get some brain cells working around here hahaha... no use with mine!

I know there are glitches associated with all kinds of identification but what if we could go to a local center, stand behind a camera so a still ID could be made, do our biometric measuring, give our fingerprints, have our voice recorded and lay out all of our documentation which can then be photographed up close and stored....all in the presence of a government employee who has read the documents. It would save money and time. So far my Passport Canada stuff has cost $97 for the document, $30 overnight mail (which I will have to do again for a second time), $25 for the photos (according to Canadian sizing which is not the same as U.S. and there is difficulty in finding a photographer who has the right equipment to satisfy the Canadian government...no kidding....that shouldn't even be a problem...but it is....

I'm not being a cheapie here....but some people just can't afford to keep playing this game. The citizenship has cost me big bucks to begin with.... and I can't see the Passport from Canada being used after I become an American...

I find it insulting an ex IRS guy and one of the real "sissies" I know who wouldn't lie for his own wife or mother...would be an excellent choice rather than a lawyer (or they even have chiropracter on the list)..... who says lawyers are honest....and the government turned him down because he worked at an international stock company and is a vice president, western ops....but they said "he isn't a bank manager".... huh????

Maybe I should ask DarkBeaver to sponsor me ????? :roll:

They are very nice to deal with however - much more polite than the locals in California I have to deal with.... and once I pushed button number 2 on the phone to hear the French spoken again..hehehe....Even the guy on the English phone answers "Bonjour"...and I fractured it back at him....hahaha...

Think I'm gonna do a blog after this is through about blazing trails through government offices....wheeeeeeeeeeeee
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
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PEI...for now
 

The Gunslinger

Electoral Member
May 12, 2005
169
0
16
Wetaskiwin, AB
The softwood thing is stalled by congress, so it's effectively a moot point and out of anyone's hands. And the USA has been calling for ID cards since 9/11.

Though I would support a new ID card. I mean, a passport doesn't even fit in a wallet. At least if we had a national ID card, we could use it like a drivers licence for ID, and fit it in a wallet to boot.