Backing Suicide Bombers

I think not

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One in 10 Indonesians backs suicide bombings
Institute conducting survey says findings are a wake-up call for leaders

JAKARTA - Eleven percent of the people in Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim country, believe suicide attacks against civilian targets are sometimes justifiable, a survey said on Thursday.

Though the number is relatively small, analysts say the findings of the Indonesian Survey Institute are a wake-up call for Indonesian leaders and moderate clerics who fear a tiny radical Muslim fringe may be making inroads into the general public.

Suicide bombings blamed on Islamic militants have killed hundreds in recent years in Indonesia, a country whose population of 220 million population is around 85 percent Muslim -- most of them following a moderate form of the religion.

The government has been making an extra effort to counter militant Islamic ideas since the discovery of videos last November showing the last words of suicide bombers who killed 20 people in restaurants on Bali island last year. Authorities and moderate clerics were shocked that young Indonesians could talk so blithely about the horrific bombings.

“Religious radicalism, when it is translated into violent methods in the name of religion, has received enough support -- one in every 10 Muslims in Indonesia,” LSI senior researcher Anies Baswedan said. “It seems small, but this is already quite a big support for extreme acts.”

The survey, based on 1,200 respondents across Indonesia’s 33 provinces, showed 11.2 percent believed suicide bombings were justifiable on occasion while 0.5 percent said the method could always be justified to defend Islam from its enemies.

The survey also revealed that 8 percent support masterminds of past suicide bombings, including Noordin M. Top, the most wanted terror suspect in Indonesia, who authorities say is an expert in recruiting young suicide bombers among the country’s impoverished masses.

Police believe Top, a key operative of the al-Qaida-linked Jemaah Islamiah militant network, is on the run in rural areas of Indonesia’s main Java island.

Anti-terror campaigns in Indonesia have faced hurdles, including perceptions the United States is out to attack Islam, as well as the ample space given to militant voices and their sympathizers in the Indonesian media.

Support for shariah
The survey also found that almost half the respondents back stoning as a punishment for adulterers while support for other extreme elements of Islamic shariah was also significant.

However, LSI said the findings could be misleading.

“Agreement to ideas based on shariah was quite high but this trend was not reflected in the support for political parties that fight for the imposition of shariah in Indonesia,” Baswedan said.

“Agreement ... does not equal to willingness to support (shariah) applications,” he said.

The current parliament, elected in 2004, is dominated by parties against imposing strict shariah laws nationwide.

In their personal lives many Indonesians follow liberal practices, or mix ancient traditional religions and magic with Islam in ways that do not square with what they profess to be their beliefs.

The survey also showed that while more than 70 percent support the moderate beliefs of Nahdlatul Ulama, the largest Muslim group in Indonesia, minority respondents are more favorable to ultra-conservative groups than liberal ones.

Only 2.5 percent back the Liberal Islam Network while 11 percent agreed with causes advocated by the Indonesian Mujahidin Council of Abu Bakar Bashir, who has been convicted on terrorism charges and identified by intelligence officials as the leader of Jemaah Islamiah.

MMI wants to Indonesia to become an Islamic state, while Jemaah Islamiah has advocated a regional Islamic government.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11852257/
 

darkbeaver

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RE: Backing Suicide Bombe

So do I, it's an environmentally friendlier way to deliver bombs, think of the fuel savings as opposed to a helicopter or B52s which require enormous ammounts of expensive tech stuff and years of crew training all to arrive at the same product, terrorism!
 

Jay

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I think not said:
Authorities and moderate clerics were shocked that young Indonesians could talk so blithely about the horrific bombings.

Well now we know why people get outraged when middle-aged Canadian men promote it!

 

#juan

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Suicide bombing,

is a desperate, last ditch act by people who have no other recourse. How desperate does one have to be to commit suicide by explosives in order to kill other people? There is a natural survival instinct that compels people and animals to save their own lives. Life has to be pretty terrible to overcome that primal instinct.
 

I think not

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Hmmm.....kamikazi pilots didn't appear to have a terrible life, they did it in the name of the emperor. People in Africa don't strap bombs around them. Maybe there is something more?
 

Jay

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Or there are 72 virgins awaiting you in La, La Land of the Jihad....take your pick.
 

Colpy

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#juan said:
Suicide bombing,

is a desperate, last ditch act by people who have no other recourse. How desperate does one have to be to commit suicide by explosives in order to kill other people? There is a natural survival instinct that compels people and animals to save their own lives. Life has to be pretty terrible to overcome that primal instinct.

I have to disagree a bit here Juan.

I don't pretend to understand it, but take a look at the guys that ran the jets into the WTC on 9/11.

Engineers, medical students who lived in American middle-class society without drawing attention to themselves.

Desperate?

I don't think so. Not in any physical sense at least.

There is somethink else at work here, and I'm not sure what it is.
 

#juan

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Hmmm.....kamikazi pilots didn't appear to have a terrible life, they did it in the name of the emperor. People in Africa don't strap bombs around them. Maybe there is something more?

The cases you refer to are desperate people. Kamakaze bomers were a last desperate gasp by a beaten Japan. In Japan, under the Emperor, failing that emperor, was cause to commit Hara Kiri.(sp)
 

Jersay

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Or there are 72 virgins awaiting you in La, La Land of the Jihad....take your pick.

Show some respect to the religion.

And Juan is correct, a person has to be extremely desperate to become a sucicide bomber.

And actually a movie came out in Toronto about a sucicide bomber's side of the story and it was almost blocked I believe by (third party organizations) but if I find its name I am going to rent it and possibly buy it so I can understand why someone would be a suicide bomber.

If anyone knows its name if you can help me out that would be helpful.
 

I think not

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#juan said:
Hmmm.....kamikazi pilots didn't appear to have a terrible life, they did it in the name of the emperor. People in Africa don't strap bombs around them. Maybe there is something more?

The cases you refer to are desperate people. Kamakaze bomers were a last desperate gasp by a beaten Japan. In Japan, under the Emperor, failing that emperor, was cause to commit Hara Kiri.(sp)

The first kamikaze unit
Commander Asaiki Tamai asked a group of 23 talented student pilots, whom he had personally trained, to volunteer for the special attack force. All of the pilots raised both of their hands, thereby volunteering to join the operation. Later, Tamai asked Lieutenant Yukio Seki to command the special attack force. Seki is said to have closed his eyes, lowered his head and thought for ten seconds, before asking Tamai: "please let me do that." Seki thereby became the 24th kamikaze pilot to be chosen.

It was an honor to do so #juan, look up history on Japan during WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze#The_first_kamikaze_unit
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Backing Suicide Bombe

darkbeaver said:
The point is that the Japanese did not begin the war with suicide tactics it was only done at the end.

No, the point is, you do not require desperation to commit suicide raids. You have a reading comprehension issue? Beavers are known for that.
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: Backing Suicide Bombe

darkbeaver said:
The point is that the Japanese did not begin the war with suicide tactics it was only done at the end.

True for the "Divine Wind" bombers, but suicidal behaviour among the Japanese military existed throughout the war. Death before surrender.

It is amazing how much a human will sacrifice for an idea, be right or wrong.
 

orpheus

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RE: Backing Suicide Bombe

Well, Indonesia may be the most populous Muslim country, however they are still the minority. I would say that the majority of hatred comes from the lack of proper education. You see it in the west and you see it in the east. Human ignorance is universal. If you want a rational society create a proper education system. Education goes farther then math and English; it is necessary that we integrate cultural awarness and political discourse in our elementary schools (in a more affective way than how it is currently being handled.)
 

aeon

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Re: RE: Backing Suicide Bombe

orpheus said:
Well, Indonesia may be the most populous Muslim country, however they are still the minority. I would say that the majority of hatred comes from the lack of proper education. You see it in the west and you see it in the east. Human ignorance is universal. If you want a rational society create a proper education system. Education goes farther then math and English; it is necessary that we integrate cultural awarness and political discourse in our elementary schools (in a more affective way than how it is currently being handled.)



True, human ignorance is universal, and you just proved it.Education has little to do with it.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terrorism

Pape claims to have compiled the world’s first “database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 — 315 attacks in all” (3). “The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” (4). It is important that Americans understand this growing phenomenon (4-7).
 

orpheus

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True, human ignorance is universal, and you just proved it.Education has little to do with it.....

You fool, you just proved me right. Do you honestly think education and ignorance are mutually exclusive? Perhaps you think that education is restricted to schooling? It is not.

Several political scientists have linked education to democratic societies. The lack of efficient democracy within the Middle Eastern region has caused desperation Disgusted with their governments lack of action, young men and women have decided to take things into their own hands. Most of these young people don't understand the majority of social foreign policies etc. They are fed propaganda and are thus improperly eduacted.
 

#juan

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According to eyewitness accounts by Allied personnel, the first kamikaze attack, in the generally accepted sense of the term, was carried out by an unknown pilot, who was probably from the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force, on October 21, 1944. The flagship of the Royal Australian Navy, the heavy cruiser HMAS Australia, was hit by an unidentified Japanese plane carrying a 200 kg (440 pound) bomb, off Leyte Island. The plane struck the superstructure of the Australia above the bridge, spewing burning fuel and debris over a large area. However, the bomb failed to explode; if it had, the ship might have been effectively destroyed. At least 30 crew members died as a result of the attack, including the commanding officer, Captain Emile Dechaineux; among the wounded was Commodore John Collins, the Australian force commander.

Any previous such attack was considered to be a final decision on the part of a determined pilot in a damaged aircraft in the heat of the battle.

At the very end, the pilots had very little training and were just barely capable of flying their planes into a target. Something like the 9/11 pilots, wouldn't you say.
 

aeon

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Re: RE: Backing Suicide Bombers

orpheus said:
True, human ignorance is universal, and you just proved it.Education has little to do with it.....

You fool, you just proved me right. Do you honestly think education and ignorance are mutually exclusive? Perhaps you think that education is restricted to schooling? It is not.

Several political scientists have linked education to democratic societies. The lack of efficient democracy within the Middle Eastern region has caused desperation Disgusted with their governments lack of action, young men and women have decided to take things into their own hands. Most of these young people don't understand the majority of social foreign policies etc. They are fed propaganda and are thus improperly eduacted.



They are fed with propaganda, just like the west, who think they killed themselves for 72 virigins, or they think they killed themselves because of the koran, ignorance is everywhere just like you said, but by dropping them bomb and occupiying them, is the real cause of terrorism, not ignorance or educations.
 

I think not

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You guys like wikipedia right?

Profile of a bomber
A common reaction to a suicide bomber is to assume that he or she was motivated by despair, and probably hailed from a poor, neglected segment of society. Both President George W. Bush and the Dalai Lama have made this claim. However, anthropologist Scott Atran found in a 2003 study that this is not a justifiable conclusion. A recently published paper by Harvard University Professor of Public Policy Alberto Abadie "cast doubt on the widely held belief that terrorism stems from poverty, finding instead that terrorist violence is related to a nation's level of political freedom." [4] More specifically this is due to the transition of countries towards democratic freedoms. "Intermediate levels of political freedom are often experienced during times of political transitions, when governments are weak, political instability is elevated, so conditions are favorable for the appearance of terrorism" Quote Original Paper.

Some suicide bombers are educated, with college or university experience, and come from middle class homes. Most suicide bombers do not show signs of psychopathology. Indeed, leaders of the groups who perpetrate these attacks search for individuals who can be trusted to carry out the mission; those with mental illnesses are not ideal candidates. They often find solace in the ritualistic communion found in extremist circles, which are often headed by charismatic individuals looking for new recruits.

It has also been observed that some suicide bombers were coerced or possibly deceived about the nature of the operation. Some counter-intelligence specialists believe that a number of the September 11th hijackers may not have known that they were embarking on a suicide mission. Cases of Middle Eastern suicide bombers being chained or tied to the steering wheel of vehicles carrying bombs or remotely detonating the said vehicles with drivers inside, and also of outfitting developmentally disabled individuals (specifically those with Down's syndrome) with suicide bomb vests, are hotly debated issues.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomber#Profile_of_a_bomber
 

orpheus

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They are fed with propaganda, just like the west, who think they killed themselves for 72 virigins, or they think they killed themselves because of the koran, ignorance is everywhere just like you said, but by dropping them bomb and occupiying them, is the real cause of terrorism, not ignorance or educations.

However, if these people were educated, do you think that terrorism would then decrease? Possibly. Probably.

I am not denying the fact that people are angered when their countries become occupied. However, even the occupiers can be labeled somewhat as illeducated. And diplomacy has a better historic record than war and terrorism.

And regarding the wiki entry:
That's entirely correct. The majority of suicide bombers have a university education. However, information regarding social laws etc. are wildely unknown and many do not have a proper understanding of politics etc. This is again caused by certain censorship from the government.