Holocaust Deniers

[I think not]

Holocaust deniers from East, West joining forces

Source: Haaretz (2-22-06)

Holocaust-deniers from the West play a key role in attempts by Iran to cast doubts on the veracity of the Holocaust, according to documents that have appeared on an Internet site.

The documents reveal Iranians have consulted with well-known Holocaust-deniers from Western countries as part of the Iranian initiative to hold a conference about the Holocaust.

The documents were published on an Internet site involved in Holocaust denial and reached scholars at the Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Anti-Semitism at Tel Aviv University.

On January 15, the Iranian News Agency announced it was going to convene a "scientific conference" on the Holocaust. A month before, French Holocaust-denier Prof. Robert Faurisson received a request regarding the
conference from Dr. Jawad Sharbaf, head of the Neda Institute of Political Sciences, Tehran.

In the letter, which opens by expressing regret over the United Nations
resolution to establish an international Holocaust Day, Sharbaf writes that the recent statements by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about the Holocaust had created the right conditions to raise the subject in Iran. "Our assumption for the time being is that the president will undoubtedly do his best if you make contact and request assistance for organizing an international conference," Sharbaf wrote.

In his response, Faurisson wrote that the scientific conference was
impractical, mainly because many of his colleagues are "either in prison, in exile or in a precarious situation that forbids them from crossing national borders."

Faurisson added that "in accord with an idea put forth by Prof. Arthur Robert Butz [a Holocaust-denier from Northwestern University in the U.S.], I shall say we hope to see President Ahmadinejad create in Iran an international center for revisionist studies."

Faurisson praised Ahmadinejad and added a request "that Iran make repeated appeals to the Western world for the freeing of our prisoners of conscience," referring to his colleagues convicted of denying the Holocaust.

Faurisson, 76, is considered the most prominent Holocaust-denier in Europe and is very much in demand by the Iranian media. Last November he gave an interview to an English-language Iranian newspaper, the Tehran Times, where he was quoted as saying that the more the West believes in the Holocaust, the more Muslims will be killed in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.

According to the head of the Roth Institute, Prof. Dina Porat, in recent years solidarity between Holocaust-deniers and extremist Muslims has increased.

"Since the law has begun to be enforced regarding Holocaust-deniers, they
often speak of the 'common fate of the persecuted,' which they feel they share with radical Muslims," Porat said.

Prof. David Menashri, head of Tel Aviv University's Center for Iranian
Studies, said Holocaust-deniers had in recent years begun to feel at home with the heads of the Iranian regime. Menashri said this was especially true with regard to Roger Garoudi, who was invited to Iran in 1998, shortly after he was convicted of denying the Holocaust by a French court. Ahmadinejad represents the new generation of Iranians who have been educated on the theory of Holocaust denial, Menashri said.

Kenneth Jacobson, assistant national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said adopting the theories of Holocaust denial of Western scholars is a relatively new phenomenon in the Muslim world. The accepted attitude had been to say that whereas it was true the Holocaust had taken place, the Palestinians should not have to pay the price. A look at Ahmadinejad's statements shows he has mixed the two approaches, Jacobson added.

 

[Hank C]

obviously these people arent the most sensitive around.....however I don't see why anyone should be jailed for not recognizing history. You should have the right to think and say whatever you want as long ...as long as you are not directly threatning someone or inciting violence against them.

 

[Hank C]

sry I was referring more to the guy in England who was sentenced to 3 years for holocaust denial.........see this is what happens when i dont read the whole article but only the heading

 

[tracy]

Isn't it nice when bigotry can bring people together? It's happened before and it will happen again.

I had to laugh in Canada when muslim, jewish and christian leaders showed a united front against gay marriage. They couldn't get together to come up with a way to stop other bad things like.... oh, I don't know... killing eachother in the Middle East? Poverty? Religious hatred? But, when it comes to gay marriage, they know the score and they can put aside their differences to fight against it.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Holocaust Deniers

sry I was referring more to the guy in England who was sentenced to 3 years for holocaust denial.........see this is what happens when i dont read the whole article but only the heading

I agree Hank. As much as I loathe those people, no one should be imprisoned for what they believe. As long as they are not actively inciting hatred or violence, anything should go.

 

[Alberta'sfinest]

I don't believe the holocaust happened the way history tells it. There was soo much confusion at the end of the war that you can't possibly say it's concrete. The only thing that I know for sure, and that anyone else knows for sure, is that Jews were rounded up as traitors, along with a whole bunch of people who weren't Jews. According to many soldiers, the camps were set up to detain traitors of the Nazi party and were kept to work in the factories and mines to maintain the nazi war machine, since the men were off fighting. No information was available at that time about building camps of that size, and they ended up with a situation of rampent disease. As a result the Germans invented the first strategy for destroying diseased bodies to stop the spread within the camps. We still use these exact methods to this day to destroy diseased animals on a large scale. The steps are to gas the animals to kill them humanely, compost the bodies to destroy the disease, and then to burn the bodies to get rid of the bodies. Giant piles of bodies really stink, even if you burry them. We currently use the same strategy to destroy the chickens that have contacted the avian flu do to high concentration chicken coupes, coupes that are very similar to the camps that were built in Germany. Since those detainees were essential to supplying the war, it doesn't make any sense to slaughter them, atleast while the war was still being fought.
The only real evidence that we ever really saw was that of starving residents within the camps as we defeated the nazi forces. However, most of the people in Germany at that time were also starving do to the scarcity of food created by war, and people who are considered to be traitors got less rations. The only eye witness testimonies that were ever recorded were taken from Jews that were malnutritioned and denied all information about the function of the camps. Starving people become very dellusional and when you lack information, imaginations run wild with speculations that could be based off nothing. If you were in there place, it would seem that people were being picked off indescriminantly for nothing more than a cough, which they probably were as German officers were probably told to do just that, to remove people at the first sign of sickness to pre-empt an outbreak. When one chicken gets avian flu, we destroy the entire farms stock.
The Jews also had a major motive to fabricate these stories and solidify them, which is rather easy to do. It's like when a plane crashes because of pilot error. Stories about the plane being faulty, whether it was a terrorist attack, etc, spread like wild fire. If the truth was never told and the same story kept circulating over and over again, people start to believe it and then it becomes truth.
We all saw exactly how easy it is to spread wild stories and accusations after seeing the confusion sorround New Orleans last year.
I think the fact that they made a law making it illegal to suggest otherwise is a direct correlation with a questionable and poorly documented truth, or there would be no reason to make such law. I myself have actually read Hitler's book "Mine Kampf", and it doesn't mention anything about exterminating Jews, and nothing that was captured as the Nazis fell suggested this otherwise. The Jews weren't treated well, but even modern prisoners of war are tortured for information and treated like shit while in captivity, but it doesn't mean that it equals genocide. If it were truly genocide, their wouldn't have even been camps. They could have been gassed on the trains unloaded and burnt immediately. No other time in history has there ever been camps built to commit genocide as it's a waste of time and money.
I do think it's horrible that Jews were turned into traitors by default do to nazi ideology, but they aren't the first and won't be the last.
Another reason that I don't believe that the story is true is because people who experience such a thing wouldn't turn around and do it to someone else like the jews have done in the state of palestine, which is the worlds largest concentration camps.
It's also obvious that the camps were never designed for the facilitation of genocide as delegates from England, Canada, and the US went to Germany to view the active containment camps which we used to design better more effective camps against the Japanese using a new type of quadrant system. We used the German camps as a learning tool to creat more efficient camps that had more space for the traitors, as well as a seperated infirmary to seperate the sick from the general contained populous.

I think the whole thing was just a shroud of lies with a motivation of revenge that eventually drew enough sympathy to create the new jewish state of Israel.

Another fact that shows how much things were exaggerated was the death toll at the most famous camp, Aushwittz. After the war, a plaque was hung on the gate that read 7 million Jews died here, and since then documents were uncovered and the sign reads 600,000.

The whole war was bullshit really, as almost all of Hitlers objectives were later achieved with the unification of germany, the formation the European union, and the removal of Jewish influence within Germany. Fascism and it's precurser nationalism still thrive today and nothing was accomplished in the end. Technically, we didn't win anything, and stopped nothing. The allies died for nothing, and history will repeat. I'm not racist either, I just don't see the harm in questioning the events that occourred, considering how much they shaped the modern world.

 

[Jay]

And they put people in jal for saying such things....how crazy is that?

 

[I think not]

Alberta'sfinest

In response to your post, uke:

Pick up a history book, Nuremburg documents, "Mein Kampf", try visiting the Holocaust Museum in LA or Washington DC, better yet, visit the concentration camps in Poland and Germany. Once you have fully completed all of the above, slap yourself a few times so you can wake up from the hypnotic idiocy that seems to have befallen you.

The Holocaust isn't a matter of "opinion", it is historical fact. I read your posts, and almost all of them, without exception, are predicting the elimination of billions of human beings so the planet can "reset" itself. Now I know why, history has taught you nothing.

 

[MMMike]

Alberta'sfinest, I don't agree with putting people in prison for questioning the holocaust. I do agree with calling them ignorant asses at best, anti-semite bastards at worst.

Why don't you try reading HISTORY for once, and no, I don't mean exclusively David Irving books.

:angryfire: :knob:

 

[tracy]

It still shocks me that people can think this was just made up by the Jews. It wasn't just Jews in those concentration camps, there were communists, homosexuals, slavs, gypsies, catholics, etc. So all those people lied? Germans kept very meticulous records of the murders they comitted. Some of them were even published as "medical studies". Anyone who thinks the Germans weren't trying to exterminate their enemies is smoking something.

 

[Alberta'sfinest]

You guys make it sound like I'm stupid or something, and I'm not. In Grade 12, I got 100% on the social studies final. I also got 100% on the English final as well. During that year I wrote a letter to the company who wrote one of my social books pointing out a flaw in the book that I discovered was mathematically impossible, so I'm pretty damn sharp.

Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I'm an educated mind, and I can argue a point without even believing in it. I'm merely saying that we should all question anything that is written throughout history, and look for things the evidence may also support. I visualize myself in that camp, and think of how my own imagination could run wild with thoughts of what is going on. From that mindset, I know that my view of the situation would be horribly skewed by my lack of information. I'd be in a cell, the gaurds would tell me nothing, except I'm educated, so people look to me for the answers. I would have none, so I would theorize the possible reasons and possible outcomes of the current situation. I make one remark to someone that it's like their rounding us up to wipe us out. Some people have already dissappeared, so it seams plausible. Later that week I here people saying that we're being rounded up to be wiped out. The next week the whole camp is talking about it. Then people start thinking about how many people have died so far, how many people who are in the camp. First it's a couple people that have dissappeared, and then it's thousands that must have come through the camp. Were they actually killed, or were they relocated to replace other workers in other camps, how many camps are there? It just keeps building and building and the gossip spreads like crazy. Pick up a tabloid and you'll see a crapload of stories based on nothing, and a week later people will be talking about things that didn't even happen.
The biggest peace of evidence against extermination is the fact that they built camps. Detention camps aren't neccessary when conducting genocide, so why would they build them? If I was given the job to destroy people, I'd streamline the process, and camps wouldn't be part of it. I'd simply shoot them and burn them. Look in your history books and look at the use of detention camps. The Japanese would burry the Chinese up to their head and run them over with a tank to perform their genocide. Also, why did they compost the bodies if they weren't diseased. Seams like a waste of time and resources to take such a unnecessary step. If I am right, considering that they invented a new method for the destruction of bodies, sick as it might be, it makes sense to keep track of the efficiency and effectiveness. The fact that this became the standard procedure immediately after WWII for the destruction of diseased animals has to be suspicious as well. Why did we tour these camps and raise no alarms if they were to conduct genocide? Not only did we tour them, we built our own camps from the data collected by the Nazis in the administration of their camps. If something as simple as the common flu were to break out in a condensed camp full of malnutritioned prisoners, it would kill a large percentage of them. Considering our knowledge of condensing animals in spaces in large numbers, we know that disease spreads very quickly in such conditions. People who are sick also can't work, and if the majority of them were dying from the flu, the obvious solution would be to kill them at the first signs to protect the rest of the work force. If I was a prisoner deprived of any knowledge of this, all I would see is people being taken and dissappearing. I think it's actually quite logical that this could have been the case, and many of the people who deny the holocaust, some well known historians, believe this is what the case really was.

By theorizing other possibilities I'm not saying that the holocaust didn't happen. I believe that even I could convince others through propaganda to do extremely bad things to other people, even coax them into a mindset where they believe they are even doing the right thing by doing so. It's not hard, I've used such a technique but not for that purpose. It's actually quite likely that this was the case, and that they were doing their patriotic duty as Nazis by carrying out such orders. Part of the propaganda tactics was to essentially reduce the view of jews to nothing more than animals. Considering I myself am going to put down my dog this weekend without any guilt whatsoever, I recognize that I would be capable of such a thing if my mindset was altered in such a way to view people as animals, which I don't. My dog is just really old and his arthritis prevents him from walking, I'm just ending his suffering, so don't get excited.

Although I do believe the holocaust did take place, I still believe that the truth about the holocaust is suseptable to being altered by those who wrote history, and the history of it has been revised many times over showing that much of the information wasn't presented very accurately. I just feel that it's my obligation to here out other possibilties and interpretation of the world around me, and keep an open mind despite what is common knowledge or recorded as history. I guess knobody else can handle a theoretical debate without getting offended.

 

[Colpy]

Alberta's Finest: Here is the problem.

First of all, there are thousands of survivors of the camps still alive, both Jew and non-Jew, who know the camps were extermination camps from nasty personal experience.

There are thousands of witnesses alive that saw, worked around, or knew of the camps.

But even without these personal accounts, the evidence of the holocaust is simply irrefutable.

The Germans are an efficient bunch, it seems. They keep extremely detailed records. They even kept extremely detailed records of the holocaust, as they thought the Third Reich would last 1000 years and they would be heroes for eliminating 6 million Jews, along with 4 million terminally ill, mental patients, Gypsies, Slavs, socialists, etc.

I have a degree in history, I have worked as a history researcher. If, in a thousand years, with no personal accounts existing, and with no prior knowledge, if just the paper documentary evidence were presented, the conclusion would be inescapable. The holocaust happened, it was a carefully planned, directed, and proudly recorded attempt to murder an entire people.

Period.

Believe what you will, it only makes you look like a fool.

If you are NOT a fool, dig deeper, look at the documents, and there becomes only one possible conclusion.

Then I suggest you look inside yourself, and try to understand why you ever believed differently.

 

[Alberta'sfinest]

"Now I know why, history has taught you nothing."
I actually really resent that remark as WWII directly affected my family. My Background is French/German. My German side left Germany as the Nazi's gained power, as they opposed the rhetoric of fascism. However, they left to Russia, which they had to leave later when Stalin collectivized the farmland they owned, and they lost everything. The red Army litterally knocked on the door and told them they had to leave or they would be killed. The town doesn't even exist anymore, and a large chunk of my extended family was masacred. Many more Germans were also indiscriminantly murdered as Russia entered Germany, many of the victims merely guilty by association, and didn't even take part in the war. Also, many refugee boats full of Germans were sunk in the North sea and Atlantic, mostly women and children were aboard. Much of those atrocities were simply ommitted for the most part from history books and only remain in the minds of the survivors. I have first hand knowledge of how history books don't represent the whole story, and is why I question all history. When my family moved to Canada, my great grandpa joined the allie forces and worked as counter-intelligence against his native country to fight fascism. The war effected my family just as much as everyone else and I'm in no way ignorant to the horrible things that took place, and all sides took place in them.

 

[Alberta'sfinest]

Colpy, did you read this?

"Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.""

I read Hitlers book, he's a psychopath that was an excellent orator with charisma. That, coupled with his ability and understanding of the human psychy allowed him to mold people through his use of public propaganda. He had the knowledge that physical exertion and group chanting and singing releases opiods in the mind. Their brains would then record the sounds, images, and ideas chemically marked by the natural opiates called endorphins. The Nazi's used this to brainwash the citizens to actually get pleasure by carrying out party policy. Then they selected the most brainwashed, those with the strongest endorphin connection to the party rhetoric to take the positions of the highest importance, including the Death camps. In the inner mind of those soldiers, they actually were getting high by exterminating people. Killing a Jew to those soldiers was similar to a heroin addict getting their fix. The majority of armies around the world still use this tactic to this day to reduce human feelings, allowing the soldier to be more effective and feel internally good for fulfilling their duties. Post traumatic stress disorder is just a nice little name given for those whose brain finds conflicting emotions and chemical signals. Nearly all religions also use similar tactics like physically exerting praying such as kneeling, the lotus position, bowing repeatedly, coupled with singing, chanting, and dancing. Then they lay on the propaganda once the physical high is achieved, and by living by the religion your brain makes the same chemical connections giving you a endorphin fix. This is why people have found themselves killing in the name of religions that forbid it, but they don't know why. This kind of brainwashing is litterally everywhere throughout the world and everyone is a victim of it to some extent. The only way to cancel out brainwashing is to break the connection through new brainwashing or drug use. It's usually why people meet stoners talking about evil corporations and you don't understand why. This is simply because corporations spend a lot of money creating propaganda to attach their image to your positive emotions. It's also why corporations and the church lobbied to start and maintain the war on drugs. It may suprize some, but most corporations fit the same profile as hitler, they're psychopaths.
Brainwashing is quite easy and very affective in getting others to bend to your will and do your bidding.
Pick up a good book on neuroscience if you want to learn more about it.

 

[I think not]

Alberta'sfinest

You resent the remarks but your opinion is quite clear. Nobody said you cannot question history, this doesn't mean we should all become revisionists and deny atrocities. Questioning history should provoke thought as to the reasons, points of view and details of the events.

I am personally not offended by your comments that the Holocaust never took place, just utterly shocked and somewhat disgusted that after 60 years there are still people in this world that deny it ever occured. You can stand on a pile of documents 3 miles high of evidence and you probably will still question it.

Your claim that the primary evidence that the Holocaust happened are the concentration camps is wrong. There are thousands of documents that prove gassing and shooting are the two ways implemented by the nazis to eliminate jews and others.

Your denial or revisionism stems from gaps in your knowledge that the events actually occured. Orders, edicts, The Final Solution all have been thoroughly documented. It is not an easy task to prove all this to you online, but if you seek the truth, I'll start you off with 3 simple links to to get you going:

http://www.ushmm.org/

http://www.wiesenthal.com/

http://www.hdot.org/ieindex.html

 

[Jo Canadian]

I don't deny that it didn't happen. I would admit that we may not know everything either. What we do know are the compilation and comparison of stories from thousands of survivors from different camp locations.

I also find it silly that you can be arrested for denying it, but in the case of what's his pickle who did get arrested it wasnt just the fact of denying it...there's lots of ignant tools out there that do. He however was in essence teaching it through books and seminars, in which case he should have been charged with falsifying history, or something like that.

If any are stupid enought to defend the fact it didn't happen, besides reading books, go find an actual survivor to talk to. There a re many still out there and would help relate some past experiences you didn't read about or said didn't happen.

As time goes on, it is easier to deny that something that didn't happen which I guess is why there are harsh standards in this case, because it's harder to defend the fact that it did occur as there are fewer and fewer people around who did experience it. After they're all gone, all it would take is some good propaganda or a good ol' fashioned Book burning to succeed in denying the event and it becomes fiction.

 

[Gerald24]

I am shocked I am offended I really dont care. The Russians lost 15 million the Jews lost six million , Millions have died in every War. If we didn't have History books we'd probably all get along in the World!!

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: RE: Holocaust Deniers

I am shocked I am offended I really dont care. The Russians lost 15 million the Jews lost six million , Millions have died in every War. If we didn't have History books we'd probably all get along in the World!!

Not necessarily. What separates humans from most of the animal kingdom is that we learn more by our mistakes. For us not to be aware of what can be done or what has been done allows us to do it again in ignorance...Unfortunately as humans we also get blinded by selfishness or pride, and that makes it difficult for two conflicting parties to set things aside to hash things out for the better.

Dammit nothing's ever easy.

 

[Jay]

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/auschwitz.html

 

[tracy]

Alberta's finest, there is a good reason for camps. When you want to exterminate over 10 million people, you can't just go door to door and shoot them. That takes an enormous amount of time, soldiers, equipment and money and results in a huge mess (it isn't easy to burn that many bodies quickly). It is completely inefficient. The camps were a much more efficient way of eliminating people. It would also create panic which would result in people fighting back. What marked the Holocaust was the denial even the jews had. They were going to work in a camp, it wouldn't be so bad, so there is no reason to fight the soldiers now, we'll do what they want and get on the train. That people today still deny it just shows how desperately we want to believe that the world wouldn't stand by and let something like that happen.

The Germans suffering after the war wasn't overlooked when I went to school. I lived in the southern Czech Republic (once known as the Sudetenland) and no one tried to gloss over the fact that Germans were expelled after the war. They were just honest about the necessity of doing it after the world used their presence as an excuse to let Hitler take over their country and start killing their people.