New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

[Karlin]

New York gets Venezuela cheap oil
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4505936.stm

Is it a jab at Bush by Chavez, the people's hero of Venezuela?

Or is it more, something about bringing down this 'artificially high' price of oil these days?

Remember the stories about refineries being held back on purpose to create a shortage - well Chavez is showing that no shortage exists other than what they created.

And he is showing that the way the price of crude is bid up on the "futures market" is bogus too - "here is the cheap oil you were looking for".

Its all arranged,this high energy fiasco that drains people's pocketbooks WAY MORE THAN DOES TAXES. {Tell that to R.W. politicians who insist less taxes is good for us.]

Chavez is really showing the world how the world could be a better place if more oil-producing nations would simply NATIOINALISE their oil, as Venezuela has done with such astounding success.

Canada, for example, would be much better off if Trudeau had got his way in the 1970's - think of the billions upon billions of dollars Canadians would have shared, put into social projects and health care, etc. Instead, that money is in the accounts of very few people, major corporations, but not the people the oil actually belonged to when it was still underground.



Other Venezuela /Chavez news -

Venezuela oil to Boston [1st delivery] -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1125/p03s03-usec.html


"Chavez lawmakers claim victory after Congress vote"
Mon Dec 5, 2005
http://tinyurl.com/cppvo

 

[TenPenny]

All of your worshipping of Chavez, and you don't point out that Venezuela is still playing by OPEC's rules. If he was the great benefactor of all people, don't you think he'd opt out of OPEC?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: New York gets Venezue

Why would he do that, Ten Penny. He sees OPEC as a way to ensure that people in developing nations get the benefit of the wealth of their countries.

 

[TenPenny]

On the one hand, he's trying to be seen as some great savior with this oil for New York and Boston shtick; on the other, he's sucking up every penny he can by sticking with OPEC.

He's just like the rest, there are no illusions there. And he toes the line that OPEC gives him. Make no mistake about that.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

On the one hand, he's trying to be seen as some great savior with this oil for New York and Boston shtick; on the other, he's sucking up every penny he can by sticking with OPEC.

He's just like the rest, there are no illusions there. And he toes the line that OPEC gives him. Make no mistake about that.

Answer - You would assume to know what Chavez is thinking? Why not just accept that he is acting to bring fuel to the poor? After all, Bush is tied in too tight with the oil industry to offer such assistance to his own people. And Bush has control over a vast reserve of oil. Are you at all familiar with the structure of OPEC? Perhaps it may surprise you to learn that it is an association of oil producing countries and is stuctured as a participitory democracy (discussion, debate, negotiations, alliances, and voting on motions). It was formed to end the tyranny of the seven major oil companies. Where the heck do you get your ideas.

 

[jimmoyer]

PoisonPete2 ?

The irony of Chavez's assistance to Boston and New York is greatly appreciated, but the irony of his prioritizing aid to one group over his own country does not escape you ?

You just might come up with other ironies to make me ponder, but it won't cancel the irony I just presented you.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: New York gets Venezue

He has been providing aid to his own country, Jimmy. In fact the profit he makes from providing this cheap oil, and there is still a profit even though it's a small one, will go to helping the people of Venezuela.

You continue to ask the wrong question though. Why aren't the US governments and US corporations helping the American people?

 

[jimmoyer]

Actually I see you gripping the same spinning top I hold.

I see you over there, my 180.

The billions in entitlement benefits, pork projects, medicare and medicaid, social security, disability income, and charities sponsored by govt and corporations quite completely dwarf the number of people Chavez has aided or hopes to aid, despite the irony of his priorities of redistributing profit.

You can compare the big apple with his little banana any day of the week my spinning top mate.

The sheer redistribute of money is gargantuan compared.

Oy veh.

Maybe we both got a tree blocking the view of the massive jungle out there.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: New York gets Venezue

Oh, I see...you've got a few largely inadequate entitlement projects so it's okay to make people choose between starving or freezing as long as your corporations make huge profits and your president gives tax cuts to your richest citizens.

That's the way Venezuela used to operate too. Eventually the people got fed up and elected Hugo Chavez. He's been making things slowly better for Venezuelans. Meanwhile your leader (mine too, but I make no apologies for Paul Martin) seem determined to make our countries into what Venezuela used to be.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

PoisonPete2 ?

The irony of Chavez's assistance to Boston and New York is greatly appreciated, but the irony of his prioritizing aid to one group over his own country does not escape you ?

You just might come up with other ironies to make me ponder, but it won't cancel the irony I just presented you.

Answer - Do you know the meaning of the word 'irony'? Does the word 'irony' have a pejorative meaning to you?

Chavez is implimenting systemic changes in Venezuela to move toward the reduction of poverty. This is a long-term solution, not a short-sighted 'quick fix'. (remember that ol' saw 'feed a man a fish and he'll eat that day. Teach him to fish and he will feed himself forever'.) They have made great strides, though the 'old guard' fascists conspired with America to create many obstacles to change. This calls for social, economic, and political shifts in a country that had never given a damn for the poor.

The provision of home heating fuel to some poor people in the North-East U.S.A. is an act of charity. Charity is giving aid or succor to another without expectation. It is the antithesis of your 'ironic' implication that Chavez should disregard the suffering of others just because many of his people suffer. I have seen great charity among the poor in '3rd world' countries. Perhaps his charity is an outgrowth of his culture.

There is likely an aspect of this act related to Chavez gesturing toward the American people that the sins of their leader (Bush) are not visited upon them. While Chavez is angered that the U.S government backed an attempted coup against him, angered that the U.S. government has been spying on Venezuela, angered that the U.S. government has fostered industrial sabotage against the economy of Venezuela, and somewhat upset that Bush has ordered and reviewed assassination plans against him, his act of charity is a symbol that he does not blame the U.S. people.

News of North America is not the mainstay content of the Venezuelan media. You see, there is life outside of 'fortress America'. Chavez' act of giving oil to the poor of the U.S. has had coverage and has received wide-spread support in Venezuela. Many people are proud of their country for helping others. I have heard absolutely no rancor like 'hey how about me' or 'help only Venezuelans'. Of course a lot of the media in Venezuela are slamming him. After all, most are owned by one man (a Rebublican supporter). But the people are seeing through the propaganda and are understanding it as an act of generousity on behalf of the people of this new Bolivar state.

The big joke is that it is sad that so many northerners freeze for six months of the year. That gets a lot of laughs. :lol:

 

[jimmoyer]

Apple to apple.

Social security in Canada, America?
Social security in Venezuela ?
Comparison?

Orange to orange ?
Health coverage in Canada, America?
Health coverage in Venezuela ?
Comparison?

Apple to apple?
Disability Income in Canada, America?
Disability income in Venezuela?
Comparison?

Orange to Orange?
Private charity in Canada, America ?
Private charity in Venezuela ?
Comparison?

Apple to Apple?
Education assistance in Canada, America?
Education assistance in Venezuela?
Comparison?

Apples to Oranges?
Pick the fad of the moment program with Chavez and
compare it to oil heat assistance in any other country?

And say he's doing more than who?

Even by dint of hard planning, Chavez cannot hope to affect the millions other economies do just haphardly by malice of no forethought.

Oh, let him redirect the allocation of resources to Boston and New York. It's good PR. It targets its audience quite accurately.

Back to apple to apple?

Capitalism in pre-Chavez Venezuela?
Capitalism in Chavez 25 year term Venezuela?
Comparison?

Capitalism in pre-Chavez was run by authoritarian government and so capitalism never got to breathe freely like in most of the western world and never quite got allowed to get past the corrupt control freaks who ran that country before the new control freak Chavez came along.

We're agreed America needs to stay out of there, just like we need to stay out of Cuba, where recently another Man of the People kicked out a Polish journalist and Italian journalist for fraternizing with the opposition.

 

[Karlin]

jim says:
"...capitalism never got to breathe freely like in most of the western world and never quite got allowed to get past the corrupt control freaks who ran that country..."

So, Capitailism is it? the North American capitalism? Or the theory?
Built on fossil fuels mostly, which is the industry that gets the most 'corporate welfare' of any industry. Its not free market, never was - thats why HEMP has got a prohibition on it along with its cousing the dope plant.

It was decided, not a free-market development at all, that diesel would be made from fossil fuels not vegetable-based oils [crops].
Gasoline tetra-lead whatever was GIVEn the nod, it didn't become the fuel with the monopoly on its own merit or by choice of consumers.

And on and on, please stop me. Point is, there is CORPORATE control freaks here running the show , and you are wrong about Chavez being so much worse than these ones here, some of whom are in jail and other awaiting trial for corporate misdeeds, that are influencing our governments every decision, esp when it comes tpo marketing fossil fuels.

Market driven? Gosh, they gave up defending that idea long ago my friend.

And how about just cleaning up after themselves? Its taken this long to admit fossil fuels are causing global warming, and they still deny it as if they won't live on planet earth- its just ignorant greed keeping their brains in denial.

Fossil fuels, other industries, all interlinked by shareholders, all obeying the BushCo lines even as they are show to be false.

No, keep your FAKE capitalism. Take a vacation in Venezuela dude.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

Apple to apple.

Answer - wrong!! Comparing: a country that is just starting to come out of dark period when it was controlled by a few local 'bagmen' fronting for American corporate pillaging of its resources : to counties with long established, broad, market driven economies; is NOT apples to apples / or oranges to oranges. It is just ridiculous.

Quote / / Apples to Oranges?
Pick the fad of the moment program with Chavez and
compare it to oil heat assistance in any other country?

Answer - this makes no sence

Quote // Even by dint of hard planning, Chavez cannot hope to affect the millions other economies do just haphardly by malice of no forethought.

Answer - meaning what??? How can you construe a gesture of charity toward the poor as being malicious, while the leader of the US kills tens of thousands of innocent people in a war of aggression and is viewed as a man of honour.

Quote // Oh, let him redirect the allocation of resources to Boston and New York. It's good PR. It targets its audience quite accurately.

Answer - and what is the PR of having the largest economy in the world, waging a foreign war while its people freeze in the dark??

Quote // Capitalism in pre-Chavez was run by authoritarian government and so capitalism never quite got allowed to get past the corrupt control freaks who ran that country before the new control freak Chavez came along.

Answer - Capitalism was doing what Capitalism does when not restrained. It ran the country (call it Fascism). And suggesting that it was "corrupt control freaks" in Venezuela, is a failure to FOLLOW THE MONEY. Even now these forces refuse to allow a dually elected President to set the agenda of the nation he leads.

Quote // We're agreed America needs to stay out of there, just like we need to stay out of Cuba.

Answer - Not at all. America needs to GET OUT and then it can hold a respectful political / economic relationship with Venezuela. You need to GET OUT of Cuba and stop the illegal boycott of the Cuban economy. Then America can hold a respectful political / economic relationship with Cuba.

 

[jimmoyer]

Twenty years later those questions on comparisons will still hold true.

Ironic how you put so much faith in one man.

Ironic how you want demon American capitalism to enter Cuba.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

Twenty years later those questions on comparisons will still hold true.

Answer - very unlikely. One more Republic government and America will be crushed by debt. Social stratification will be deeply divisive. They will be faced with a great challenge of sourcing foreign resource materials while China is able to make higher bids. America's 'social net' is shrinking: public education is tanking as more tax money flows to private education, a growing demographic of aging people are going to find that their pension sources have been eroded by corporate greed, access to medical care will be very restricted as it will be controlled by corporate entities such as HBOs who will be protected from lawsuits by the laws Bush just passed, military induction will be eroded as more scandals surface of how little support has been given to the returning wounded and how American troops have been put at risk by their own munition, the growing gap of rich and poor will become a source of widespread social unrest.

Meanwhile, as Venezuela develops a diverse agrocultural, industrial, and resource driven economy with a fair distribution of wealth and social responsibility under the Bolivarian Revolution, and continues to attract neighbouring nations toward this model through social modeling, strengthening trade and political associations, it is poised to become the catalyst of very great advancement toward South America's emergence as an economic powerhouse.

Ironic how you put so much faith in one man

Answer - (ironic?) please don't use words unless you understand their meaning. I do not put much faith in any one man. I do though measure people by whether they put their words into action. Chavez does that. I do not follow blindly leaders who have shown themselves to be lying scumbags or duplicitous cheats (ie Bush and Cretien). Though this social movement led by Chavez may be crushed by the opposition of self-interest groups such as the U.S. government or their corporate masters, the concept of democracy and social justice, as expounded by Chavez, would not die easily.

Ironic how you want demon American capitalism to enter Cuba.

Answer - why don't you try reading my posting with a little bit more focus? I already gave a clear rebuttal to this question. I would want America to STOP BEING DEMONIC. I would want the idea of 'capitalism' to be realized in a free and open marketplace with fair trade between all countries according to equitable rules.
The U.S. economic embargo of Cuba was originally proposed as an embargo against the importation of military weapons into Cuba, and later got wound into the Trading with the Enemy Act. Cuba has never attacked the U.S. Twice the Unites States has attacked Cuba. America would continue to abuse that small nation to protect the interests of the American sugar industry, a hugely subsidized industry with close ties to the Republic party.

it seems that when your postings are clearly refuted, you ignore the rebuttal and invent spin in another direction as if it were an argument against the rebuttal. That is not clever at all. Nor does it support a stimulating debate.

 

[TenPenny]

Re: RE: New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

On the one hand, he's trying to be seen as some great savior with this oil for New York and Boston shtick; on the other, he's sucking up every penny he can by sticking with OPEC.

He's just like the rest, there are no illusions there. And he toes the line that OPEC gives him. Make no mistake about that.

Answer - You would assume to know what Chavez is thinking? Why not just accept that he is acting to bring fuel to the poor? After all, Bush is tied in too tight with the oil industry to offer such assistance to his own people. And Bush has control over a vast reserve of oil. Are you at all familiar with the structure of OPEC? Perhaps it may surprise you to learn that it is an association of oil producing countries and is stuctured as a participitory democracy (discussion, debate, negotiations, alliances, and voting on motions). It was formed to end the tyranny of the seven major oil companies. Where the heck do you get your ideas.

I know enough about OPEC to know that OPEC cracked down on Venezuela last year, and made them toe the line on export quotas.

Up until last year, Orimulsion was not considered to come under the quota, so Venezuela was free to sell as much Orimulsion as they wanted, and it didn't hurt their oil quota. Last year, OPEC decided that Orimulsion would be counted against Venezuela's export quota for oil.

Don't you know anything about OPEC? Where the heck do you get your ideas?

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: New York gets Venezuela cheap oil

[
Up until last year, Orimulsion was not considered to come under the quota, so Venezuela was free to sell as much Orimulsion as they wanted, and it didn't hurt their oil quota. Last year, OPEC decided that Orimulsion would be counted against Venezuela's export quota for oil.

Don't you know anything about OPEC? Where the heck do you get your ideas?

Answer - So what you are outlining is that OPEC meetings were held and an agreement of the majority was concluded for a change of policy. As a member of OPEC, Venezuela was expected to comply with the regulations. After all, they are a free-standing member of that organization, with a voice in its proceedings, and have enough honour to abide by their commitment. Perhaps your language was overy belicose in your previous posting, with the implication that Venezuela was the hapless servant of the cruel OPEC master.

It would be wonderful if the U.S. acted similarily to uphold its commitment to NAFTA.

 

[Karlin]

OPEC rules do not allow for cheap exports willy nilly like Chavez is doing. So he is not totaly under their wing.

You realise he is also selling half-price oil to Cuba, and some other southern nations?

Anyone know if Chavez is going to change to 'payment-in-Euros' ?

Thats a factor in IRAQ too - perhaps an essential fact for going to war - is that Iraq and other Arab nations are starting to accept payment for their crude oil in Euros.
That is bad for the USA,or for some America businessmen maybe, something about when the greenback [US dollar] is used to trade oil, there is a percentage for someone, bla bla bla. I had it figured at one time - hows it go?

Gesture from Venezuela Heats the Bronx
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/120805O.shtml

One reason he is doing it this way "instead of helping his own freezing people out", is because its basically "free" to Chavez to send them heating oil,, but with a large value on the receiving end in the Bronx, to his credit.

Chavez is shrewd. Some look at that like its a bad thing.It depends on the motives I guess.

I still don't se why you distrust him. I hear all your attacks and accusations but they are without details of what he has done wrong.

? where are the victims?

 

[PoisonPete2]

OPEC rules do not allow for cheap exports willy nilly like Chavez is doing. So he is not totaly under their wing.

You realise he is also selling half-price oil to Cuba, and some other southern nations?

...
One reason he is doing it this way "instead of helping his own freezing people out", is because its basically "free" to Chavez to send them heating oil,, but with a large value on the receiving end in the Bronx, to his credit.

Chavez is shrewd. Some look at that like its a bad thing.It depends on the motives I guess.

I still don't se why you distrust him. I hear all your attacks and accusations but they are without details of what he has done wrong.
? where are the victims?

Answer - intresting post. haven't read all the conventions of OPEC but there may be exemptions in tarrif rates in aid of 3rd world regions. Perhaps some areas of New York would qualify? I'm certain many of our aboriginal reserves would.

With Cuba Chavez has mutual service exchange agreements that augments the oil price charged to Cuba. There are now many Cuban doctors in remote regions of Venezuela bringing medical aid to many people for the first time. There are many Cuban teachers in Venezuela providing free adult education so the poor and aboriginal can learn to read. Cuba is providing a large number of Venezuelans free training as doctors and teachers to eventually replace those Cubans. This will likely take several years. Like a barter system. This enrages the U.S. because ... because ... because its just wrong damn it! It's ... its UNAMERICAN

Charity, like XMas gifting, should not be measured by money spent, but by the sheer joy in sharing.

I very much hope that Chavez is shrewd. His brazon acts of charity to foreigners and vigorous efforts at improving the lives of his common citizens have earned him the wrath of conglomerates and of the U.S. President. He is facing down giants.

I spend money in Venezuela not in the USA.

 

[jimmoyer]

Hope concentrated on one man is doom assured.

You'll all have to live through ONE MAN making sure his term goes to 2030.

Your own country would not accept such hubris.

You all speak of the idiocy of the masses, an elitism that knows no bounds to its own snobbery.

What's really happening is that you are all looking for Plato's Republic, Plato's authoritarian benevolent philosopher King.

In 2000 years we've waited for a man like Chavez.

No term limits even for the Best.