SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY ?

[jimmoyer]

In some ways the least discussed matter is the SOLUTION on Iraq?

There is a lot of merit in many of the arguments posted on this board. There is a lot of merit in much of the criticism posted on this board.

I'd like to hear proposals that involve the least damage to all.
That the damage be lessened to all is improbable, let's hear again some solutions.

There are negatives and positives to withdrawing from Iraq.

After I heard from yet another voice in Western Pennsylvania, a decorated American soldier in Vietnam, a congressman spoke forthright about the illusions of this war, I've wavered in what I too have believed.

I don't think either side on this war has it all right, and I have always really wondered whether both sides are just using this war as a prop for their previous prejudices and that the main goal of a solution is very low on everyone's agenda.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

There are negatives and positives to withdrawing from Iraq

indeed there are.

bush's current rhetoric is NOT a solution or a workable premise (IMHO)

so ideas that come to mind. The US announce a workable time table for pullout as opposed to being radical and going cold turkey ........leaving Iraq in a mess worse than they arrived . (invaded)

Start by following through on it......( to regain some credibility)

POLITELY ask other nations to assist in peacekeeping of Iraq now....... so the focus is changed from war mentalilty to peace gaining and keeping. Gotta settle things down some before taking further drastic action. Too much negative has taken place to do anything radical.

Stop all construction of US military bases...... until the situation is calmer and this aspect can be negotiated properly.

Get rid of the Bremner doctrine. As a lot seems to be tied to his "manifests".

ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES PUBLICALLY and STOP LYING as the additional lies only compound the original ones and no on believes or trusts anything the us is going to do .

Give Iraqis jobs in reconstructing their own country and pay them WELL........ as you was the one that broke it.

Stop running things in Iraq from behind the curtain.

Learn to accept the fact that compromise is a good thing at times.

Swallow "your" damned arrogance and pride and face reality . ( no personal.......general)

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY

The first thing that has to happen is that the US has to get out, Jim. It can't be a haphazard abandonment like occurred in Vietnam either, that will only make things worse. Instead you have to follow Powell's doctrine of, "You broke it, you bought it."

That means the US needs to pay for things.

The first thing they need to pay for is an international peacekeeping force. Not a coalition of the willing there to crush the insurgency, but a force with a lot of representation from Muslim countries that can keep the Iraqis from killing each other while a political solution is found.

The second thing they need to pay for is the rebuilding of infrastructure. It was the US that bombed Iraq back into the stone age and it is the US that must pay for the rebuilding. Not with Iraqi oil money, but with American tax dollars. Sorry, but you did break it and now you've bought it.

The third thing that has to be paid for is war crimes. That means the US has to sign up for the ICC so that your political leaders and military commanders can be prosecuted. Hey, if they are innocent, they have nothing to worry about anyway, right?

 

[jimmoyer]

Some of your suggestions, Ocean Breeze, are excellent.

I think we need a leader who will go hat in hand and ask for public forgiveness in a strong heartfelt way that compels the world to help Iraq.

I understand that my conservative friends look at that as defeatism, but I think the strategy is as crazy like a fox and smart.

An exact timetable, however, is full of pitfalls. I'd rather have that timetable to be an unknown and unknowable as the world grows together to reach a peace there.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY ?

Some of your suggestions, Ocean Breeze, are excellent.

I think we need a leader who will go hat in hand and ask for public forgiveness in a strong heartfelt way that compels the world to help Iraq.

I understand that my conservative friends look at that as defeatism, but I think the strategy is as crazy like a fox and smart.

An exact timetable, however, is full of pitfalls. I'd rather have that timetable to be an unknown and unknowable as the world grows together to reach a peace there.

this idea of keeping the timetable under wraps has some merit. As long as a peacekeeping force is in place or being put in place simultaneously. What the US can do is announce the withdrawl as it is happening or right after it happened. Could be useful strategy too. As then they have restored some psychological "control" over the situation......

has possibilities.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY

A timetable can be worked out, James. As you hand off to international peacekeepers, you pull out, so the question becomes when those peacekeepers will become available.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY

A timetable can be worked out, James. As you hand off to international peacekeepers, you pull out, so the question becomes when those peacekeepers will become available.

I think so too. It is HOW this is handled...... and it would require excellent strategy ( smart strategy......with no hidden agendas.....as the US can ill afford hidden agendas now..)

It CAN be done.......and the US can still save some face and restore some credibility....... although the bush regime itself might not. (just too many lies. )

 

[#juan]

I really like this thread. I just wish there was a way that Bush and his pals would ever go along with any of this. I have a feeling that Bush might leave the presidency a year or two early and probably not of his own accord. I have several dozen relatives in the U.S. and a lot of them think Bush is on the way out, early.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

I have several dozen relatives in the U.S. and a lot of them think Bush is on the way out, early.

Have relatives (plenty) states side......and most of them are saying this too. A minority few are still die hards.;-). (good thing they live far away....;-)

but I digress.

(don't think the bushcons would be at all receptive to the ideas posted here........(big sigh. their loss;-)

 

[PoisonPete2]

not a timetable so much as milestones. One would be the reestablishing of an Iraqi army. This should include the reinstatement of all previous military commanders up through the rank of Col.. This would be in coordination with a U.N. sponsored force with a large contingent of Pan-Arabian military. The American 'coalision of the willing' would step-down as they are replaced, leaving their weapons and supplies under U.N. control. This would result in America losing about 20% of their munitions, thereby reducing their ability to engage in new conventional wars, as well as strenthening U.N. resources.

Disarming of militants would work in conjunction with other processes and would be signalled by participation in the conferencing and reconstruction of Iraq. Nobody without a voice would want to be without a weapon.

An open armistice to allow for conferencing of the multitude of factions in seeking a political solution. This will be very difficult, but Iraq was a secular society and the Iraqis will likely move again toward a secular society. Aspirations of all factions would be viewed, including those of the Sunni (including Bathists), various Shi'ah militia, Kurdish groups, Communists, regional interests, and nationalists. The false document of the Constitution would be abandoned if favour of a document generated out of this conferencing. This process would be from a grass-roots base. It should be remembered that the aspirations of the American people in their revolutionary period, took several years to gain voice, months to condense into a viable blueprint and several years to defend and impliment.

There will be a period of national reconstruction. The Americans are liable for every bomb they dropped, every service they damaged, every life they took. A massive rebuilding of the infrastructure of Iraq paid for by the American taxpayers. You guys voted for Bush.

Yes, eventually, a war crimes tribunal including those responsible for the invasion, those who committed acts to terrorize the citizens of Iraq (including the Bathist regime, and those who stood against the process of peace.

There are many complex and difficult issues to face, including the possibility that Iraq is not viable as a nation in the absence of stong central control. Options such as the dissalution of Iraq and the impact of a possible Kurdish state bordering on Turkey may become reality. Thus a strong and viable United Nations forum is required.

The world was much less of a mess before the invasion. But there is still Somalia, Zimbabwa, Indonesia, Congo, Uganda, Bolivia, Peru, Afghanastan, Chechnia, Nepal, Tibet, Eqypt, Saudi, Arabia, the USA, and so many other problem areas in which to lend assistance.

 

[peapod]

testing....testing...jimmy moyer can you hear me??

definition of jingoism is:

A. Love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it.
B. Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy.
C. Indeed.

Answer: B

 

[jimmoyer]

I was just about ready to entertain ALL of Reverend Blair's suggestion until your post came up Peapod.

Now I'm asking for a change of venue to another planet.


By the way, I don't think we have a leadership receptive to any of these suggestions, but a growing part of the conservative movement is going to make it happen despite disagreeing with the manner and the way the liberal left makes its arguments.

And yes, it ain't about left or right ideology, but rather about humility and the need for help for this new nation mucked about by us, despite the fact that the insurgency is all about a nasty power play bullying the majority of Iraqis into subservience.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY

I was watching something on the weekend, Jimmy...one of those political shows, I can't remember which. They were talking openly about the Republicans wanting to change leadership before the 2006 election. That was mostly focused on Delay and Frist, but the undertone was clearly that they needed to distance themselves from the Bush regime.

The talking heads wouldn't say it outright, but they made oblique references to Bush's poll numbers, the neo-conservative movement (they referred to the Chicago School and Straussians, without ever saying neo-con), and the religious right. It was pretty clear what they were getting at.

Are there enough moderate Republicans for the party to really change and new leadership to come in, or are PNAC and the religious right still too influential for that to happen?

I get the feeling that if moderate Republicans (or real Republicans if you have any sense of history) gain control, that you'll be out of Iraq pretty quickly.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

A major step towards solutions would be for the busheviks to STOP fecking LYING. Their lies are an insult to the world's intelligence. and a complete embarrassment to themselves.

Lying to Kill/Konquer and Dominate has been their MO for this current disaster.......and all they have achieved is the LYING part.

Maybe they can get away with lying to the u.s. population.......but the rest of the world is on to them......and has been for a long time.

Another step towards a solution is to make sure the public ( US) is fully informed and to STOP controlling what the talking heads in the media say. Saw a docu last evening about how severely limited in knowledge of the world the US is in general and how the u.s. lives in this isolated bubble now. This lack of information in the information age is inexcusable. How can the americans make a sensible , informed decision about things when they have nothing but spin /lies to work with?? On the other hand......relying on the telee is a poor system for gaining information anyhow. Telee news is about ratings and entertainment.

a question that arises is this: How INTERESTED is the US public in the truth and facts / how motivated is it to research and find out??

seems the so called 'solutions" are multifaceted. It is not just offering up "suggestions" or plans of action........but making sure one is informed of the process involved and how things got to be such a mess. Critical thinking and crtical questioning. Assertive questioning of their own government seems to be in order.....or long over due.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: SOLUTIONS ? ANYBODY ?

despite the fact that the insurgency is all about a nasty power play bullying the majority of Iraqis into subservience.

Answer - there is no insurgency. An insurgency is when a group of persons join cause to usurp an existing government. The legitimate government of Iraq was toppled by an illegal invasion led by the U.S.. Since that time the people of Iraq have been defending their land against the occupation by that invading force. Call them freedom fighters perhaps, but to mindlessly repeat a word whose use was contrived by one of Bush's speach writers and then directed to be used by the American captive media, serves only to false and devious purpose. Armed occupation is the very essence of bullying. That is why the puppet government of international criminals is false, and the constitution a rag meant to keep Iraq unstable.

 

[jimmoyer]

Are there enough moderate Republicans for the party to really change and new leadership to come in, or are PNAC and the religious right still too influential for that to happen?

I get the feeling that if moderate Republicans (or real Republicans if you have any sense of history) gain control, that you'll be out of Iraq pretty quickly.

------------------------------Reverend Blair----------------

You hit the nail on the head, Reverend Blair, with your questions and intuition.

Let's just say that a large portion of the conservative movement, especially its libertarian and moderate wings are unhappy with the hubris and abandonment of principles by this Bush administration of the conservative movement.

Still a lot of us do not subscribe to the shrill liberal left and their arguments either, so there's no leader yet for us to rally behind.

And PoisonPete, I understand your logic on the matter of using the word, insurgent, but let's understand that moving to the extreme on either position gets further and further away from the truth of the matter. You know that as well as I do, but if you're enslaved by the idealogues than I guess we'll go round and round on the matter chasing each other's tails.

You may look at the insurgents as freedom fighters, but a lot of the Shia do not see the Sunni baathists and Saddamists the same way you do.

You are right that occupation by a foreign army is full of problems for both America and the Iraqis.

But liberal wingers got a real myopia when they don't consider how the Kurds and the Shi-ites look at the Sunni guerrilla fighters.

And so this leads us back to the main point of this thread, and I think overall we Americans got to get out of there.

We need to do it in the best way that limits us and them from any further damage.

Hopefully THE WORLD will become interested enough to think it might matter to them what the outcome of a new Iraqi nation might mean.

Further suggestions on this are welcome.

And Poison Pete? I have not fully digested your earlier post on suggestions for a solution, but will look further at it.

 

[Tresson]

In some ways the least discussed matter is the SOLUTION on Iraq?

There is a lot of merit in many of the arguments posted on this board. There is a lot of merit in much of the criticism posted on this board.

I'd like to hear proposals that involve the least damage to all.
That the damage be lessened to all is improbable, let's hear again some solutions.

There are negatives and positives to withdrawing from Iraq.

After I heard from yet another voice in Western Pennsylvania, a decorated American soldier in Vietnam, a congressman spoke forthright about the illusions of this war, I've wavered in what I too have believed.

I don't think either side on this war has it all right, and I have always really wondered whether both sides are just using this war as a prop for their previous prejudices and that the main goal of a solution is very low on everyone's agenda.

Most people who study democracy and the democratic systems believe there are 2 main factors that are needed for democacy. They are :

1. A Large and Visable Middle Class

and

2. The rule of law holds sway in the counrty.

Lets start with the second factor for our look at Iraq. The Insurgents, (or freedom fights or whatever you want to call them,) aren't following the law and will need to delt with before you'll have a truely working government but that will mostly be delt with as the americans leave. More important issue right now is that the common people in Iraq are being terrorized by common thugs. There is a great need in boosting the police forces in Iraq.

The Second point is that we need a large and viable Middle class. Right now there isn't much off a middle class in Iraq. What needs to fix this is to firstly to rebuild all of Iraq's infrastructsure, (and not just the oil), this should be done by the Iraq's themselves to help funnel money back into it's people and businesses. The contract signed by the US should be cancelled and have the Iraq government decide what they need themselves. Secondly the world should help Iraq gain investments from the world's business comunity.

I think that Canada could help with the training the police as we've help with the training of police before and have been sucessful.

Well that's how I see things. I hope they make sense to more people then just myself.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Let's just say that a large portion of the conservative movement, especially its libertarian and moderate wings are unhappy with the hubris and abandonment of principles by this Bush administration of the conservative movement.

Still a lot of us do not subscribe to the shrill liberal left and their arguments either, so there's no leader yet for us to rally behind.

But are there enough moderates left that if a leader emerged, they could bring him to power within the party? I think we can pretty well write off the Libertarian wing...Pat Buchanan doesn't have many fans left and much of his rhetoric is so close to the neo-cons' that it's doubtful a leader can come from that side of the party.

 

[jimmoyer]

Here's the deal Reverend Blair.

There are many of us who follow a principle but not the party, and the party has forgotten that concept.

I think that the Bush political camp who are not really part of the conservative movement are looking for a guy who will follow through with the agenda on Iraq.

It happens to be a guy although youthful and vigorous is also the same person who could gain the distinction of being America's oldest President.

John McCain.

I hope this happens.

He has honor.

I can describe in detail why this is so, but that will come at another time.

 

[jimmoyer]

Thank you to the following for contributing excellent ideas:

1. Tresson (Rule of Law, Middle Class, Bullying)
2. Poison Pete
3. Reverend Blair (international peace keeper involvement)
4. Ocean Breeze (suggest America ask humbly for help and forgiveness)

5. Peapod (reminding me of jingoism)

One day the American troops will leave and on that matter we are all agreed.

The growth of neighborhood militias might be the key to each neighborhood gaining stability, and a lot of areas of Iraq already have as much stability as any western nation city on a hot summer night.

This may concern the American troops because there is no coordinating of activities and is certainly grounds for accidents and pain, but each group is starting to fend for itself.