Chavez Takes a Stand

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
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The Owl Farm
And Laura Bush got chased away from one of her walkabouts. The US is about done as an international power. Nobody wants anything to do with them anymore and three more years of Bush could just about finish the job.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
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The Owl Farm
It is expensive. It will also produce power that can be sold and bring in much-needed technological advancement and economic diversification.

I have a feeling that Chavez is doing it to scare George Bush as much as anything, but there's nothing wrong with that either.

Venezuela isn't that cash-strapped either. High oil prices have provided a winfall for them and Venezuela gets to keep a lot of the money.
 

passpatoo

Electoral Member
Aug 29, 2004
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Algoma
Whatever Chavez's motivation is, I can't help to think that it's a good thing (up to a point). The US has been acting like the bully on the block for to long. Little things like this should just server to remind them that they are not.
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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Das Kapital
Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Derry McKinney said:
It is expensive. It will also produce power that can be sold and bring in much-needed technological advancement and economic diversification.

I have a feeling that Chavez is doing it to scare George Bush as much as anything, but there's nothing wrong with that either.

Venezuela isn't that cash-strapped either. High oil prices have provided a winfall for them and Venezuela gets to keep a lot of the money.

I agree, I think it's for show more than anything, not unlike a rebellieous teenager. I think their economic interests were be better served developing other things at the moment and that's probably exactly what they are doing.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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www.contactcorp.net
Yeah, America really screwed it up down there.

That's not tongue in cheek. America is going to pay for it.

Chavez will use this to enhance his power, and encourage the world he is making a change for the better for his people and not just himself.

Chavez will model himself off Castro and we will see how he really effects change in his country. We saw Castro take care of the plight of the poor? Oh yeah, that wasn't his fault. Couldn't have possibly been his responsibility at all. Hemingway liked him. Every intellectual likes him.

Interesting cat.

Loves baseball.

Forget about what you don't see.

.
 

passpatoo

Electoral Member
Aug 29, 2004
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Algoma
Here's another one I found while making a scan of the papers this morning. This one is by PepsiCo president Indra Nooyi. I'm not sure which version of the story to believe here, but I'm leaning towards she knew exactly the connotations of symbolism she used. She seemed to know the western connotations with regards to the other four fingers.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GE25Df04.html

There really is no shortage of these incedences out there. Without a doubt, a certain aspect of it is simply the envy of the US being the BMOC and with that comes a level of animosity. However, there has still been a great many examples of aggressive US foreign policy over the years, with the current administration seemingly the most overbearing. In that light, all these examples of anti US attitudes from around the world certainly seem to be justified.

my $00.02
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Derry McKinney said:
It is expensive. It will also produce power that can be sold and bring in much-needed technological advancement and economic diversification.

I have a feeling that Chavez is doing it to scare George Bush as much as anything, but there's nothing wrong with that either.

Venezuela isn't that cash-strapped either. High oil prices have provided a winfall for them and Venezuela gets to keep a lot of the money.

Chavez is developing nuclear power because he's gutting PDVSA. Its good to blame demons (read: America) to deflect criticism away from your own incompetence. Good luck Mr. Chavez. Hope you can steal lots of money like your buddy Castro

From an intelligence source (sorry, no link)

Petroleos de Venezuela's (PDVSA) net crude oil production has dropped to 1.35 million barrels per day (bpd), says Jose Guerra, a former chief economist for the Venezuelan Central Bank. This estimate does not include about 1 million bpd produced by foreign oil companies under four so-called "strategic associations" in the Orinoco heavy oil belt, nor 32 recently nullified marginal oilfield operating contracts.

The government of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has repeatedly claimed since early 2003 that Venezuela's oil production averages 3.3 million bpd. However, Venezuela's crude oil production capacity is plummeting because of poor management at PDVSA and insufficient investment since Chavez seized full control of the company.

The government's official numbers on PDVSA simply do not add up when official crude oil production levels are compared with dollar revenues deposited by PDVSA at the Venezuelan Central Bank. Guerra argues that the discrepancy results from the government's failure to tell the truth about PDVSA's true crude oil production levels.

Guerra said May 16 that if the government's assertion that Venezuela is producing 3.3 million bpd is truthful, oil exports should be averaging at least 2.8 million bpd after netting out some 500,000 bpd of internal consumption. Based on an official average export price of $39.33 per barrel during first quarter 2005, this means Venezuela's oil export earnings during the first quarter should have totaled slightly more than $9.9 billion.

However, Energy and Mines Minister Rafael Ramirez, PDVSA's president, recently said PDVSA deposited only $6.43 billion at the central bank. This leaves $2.39 billion in oil export earnings unaccounted for -- if the government's official production figures are truthful.

The black hole at PDVSA could be even greater than Guerra estimates. Domingo Maza Zavala, the central bank's director, recently said PDVSA deposited only $4.8 billion at the bank during the first quarter, not $6.43 billion as claimed by Ramirez. Based on Guerra's estimates, this means $4.02 billion in foreign exchange that PDVSA should have earned during the first quarter went "missing" because it was not deposited at the bank.

There are several possible explanations for the discrepancy. Most likely, the Chavez government's official oil production figures are false. Based on official production claims, PDVSA should be exporting 2.8 million bpd in crude oil and refined products. However, Guerra thinks Venezuela is exporting only about 1.8 million bpd.

Another likely explanation is theft. Many individuals associated with Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution could have stolen the money. PDVSA has not published audited financial statements since 2002. Moreover, the National Assembly's Energy Commission is investigating 228 cases of alleged corruption in PDVSA. A National Assembly source who works with the commission said May 16 that there are "hundreds more" corruption accusations involving PDVSA the commission has not yet begun to investigate.

PDVSA's collapsing crude oil production will continue for the foreseeable future. PDVSA does not invest enough in well maintenance and production-capacity development to offset oil reservoir depletion rates that average between 20 percent and 25 percent annually, depending on the age of the oil fields. These natural depletion rates result from the loss of internal reservoir pressure levels as crude oil is extracted and no efforts are made to inject natural gas and steam to maintain pressure levels. As a result, PDVSA is producing fewer barrels of oil per well.

The Chavez government has an official PDVSA expansion plan that calls for investing more than $40 billion in the next five years to raise production capacity to more than 5 million bpd. But that plan exists only on paper. Since Chavez became president in early 1999, PDVSA has announced at least 15 expansion plans, but has launched none of them to date.

As PDVSA's production capacity collapses, and the Chavez government milks the oil industry for every penny it can get, investment by foreign oil companies is becoming increasingly critical for Venezuela's continued viability as a major oil producer and exporter. However, Chavez's bullyboy tactics against the oil companies are backfiring, and meanwhile, the oil industry -- Venezuela's principal economic support -- is slowly being strangled.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
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The Owl Farm
No linky, no playee.

When somebody shows up from Florida refusing to give references and quoting "intelligence sources" where I'm from, we usually set the dogs on him. Then we feed his belongings to the goats.

The US needs Venezuela's oil. They will buy it because they have to. The CIA tried putting the honchos on strike, they tried a coup, and they tried to back a recall bid. Chavez kicked the hell out of them every time.

Now Chavez has threatened to cut diplomatic ties because the US is harbouring a known terrorist, and suddenly all these unaccredited stories start showing up. Coincidence? I kind of doubt it.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Derry McKinney said:
No linky, no playee.

When somebody shows up from Florida refusing to give references and quoting "intelligence sources" where I'm from, we usually set the dogs on him. Then we feed his belongings to the goats.

The US needs Venezuela's oil. They will buy it because they have to. The CIA tried putting the honchos on strike, they tried a coup, and they tried to back a recall bid. Chavez kicked the hell out of them every time.

Now Chavez has threatened to cut diplomatic ties because the US is harbouring a known terrorist, and suddenly all these unaccredited stories start showing up. Coincidence? I kind of doubt it.

Sorry. Can't link it. Thought you might like to see what the grown-ups are looking at.

Besides, you know that the nuclear stuff is BS in Venezuela. It has nothing to do diversifying the economy. It has everything to do with playing politics at home and amongst the anti-gringos in Latin America. Saying you're going to work with Iran to develop nuclear power! Venezuela?! C'mon, you guys aren't that slow on the uptake, are you? It ain't going to happen. Chavez solidifies his base with such statements.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
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The Owl Farm
He might just be solidifying his base. It will still bring technology in. You can't (or are too embarrassed to) name your source. What are you, a spy? Come on.

Grown-ups have sources, Toro. Republicans have excuses. Why not go read your talking points memos.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Derry McKinney said:
He might just be solidifying his base. It will still bring technology in. You can't (or are too embarrassed to) name your source. What are you, a spy? Come on.

Grown-ups have sources, Toro. Republicans have excuses. Why not go read your talking points memos.

I have access to nongovernmental (read private) intelligence and cannot link it. I'm not a Republican. I'm certainly not a spy. I'm not even American. I'm just a nobody. But I do work for somebodies and have had a tiny, tiny glimpse into the world so many of you talk about in other threads, this topic being perhaps the least of them.

One of the things I have learned is that there is a difference between rhetoric and action, and that's true for both sides. Strategy, tactics and politics are discussed on a higher plane in the governmental and diplomatic world than in the realm of public discussion. The public (and the press) does not make the connection, not because the public is being duped or is unintelligent, but rather because the public views events through the prism of emotion, nationalism, ideology and biases rather than analyzing the logic of rational agents.

This issue is a perfect example. Chavez is not stupid. Chavez has powerful enemies, both inside and outside Venezuela. The US has been meddling in internal affairs. Chavez wants to retain power. He has seen what has happened to popular support in countries where the US has focussed its attention on nuclear issues, i.e. North Korea, Iran. It has gone up. Anti-American sentiment plays well everywhere south of the Rio Grande anyways. So what does he do? He invites Iran - of all countries - to help him build nuclear power plants. Not Spain or Canada or Japan or France, all of which have greater technical knowledge about such things. No, he invites Iran, one of America's worst enemies, to help diversify its economy. Right. I've got some swampland to sell you down here if you believe that one. So why would he do it? Because he's trying to provoke a respone from America so he can stand up to the bullying gringos. Plays well in the barrios.

I posted that article because this thread - and I imagine this board - suffers from the same biases I mentioned earlier, though coming from the far Left. Chavez is gutting PDVSA, not because of the big, bad Americans, but because of his own incompetence. That doesn't square with the far Left worldview on this issue.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
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The Owl Farm
Iran is a fellow member of OPEC and they have the technology. He might have asked Canada if our leaders didn't spend so much time kneeling in front of George Bush, but if I was Chavez, I wouldn't trust them either. China has nothing he wants. So why shouldn't he take something that plays well politically?

I still doubt your numbers too. I'm not a big believer in "private intelligence" because it's spun to meet the goals of the shareholders. In the case of Venezuela, all the shareholders are likely to be making donations to Bush campaign. Sorry, I might just be a goat farmer from Saskatchewan, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either.


Assuming your unsubstantiated numbers have any validity at all:

I doubt he's gutting PDVSA at all. He might be hiding some money (he has to pay for guns and planes), but the oil is still flowing and the money is still rolling in.

There is also the possibility taht somebody within PDVSA is playing games with the money and/or oil. That would be with CIA backing. You know as well as I do that they've been doing all they can to destroy Chavez. If they have a way in, they'll be using it.
 

Toro

Senate Member
The quotes from the economists and the numbers from the central bank shouldn't be that hard to find if you don't believe me.

You don't trust private intelligence but do you trust the Briarpatch? Who has the bigger political axe to grind? If you think that such information - which I pay a fair amount for - is bent to appease shareholders, I would believe you don't understand why people pay for it in the first place. I do not pay for political slant. I can get that for free. It is critical that I know what is happening on the ground. Political slant hurts, not helps.

I also know a little about oil markets and PDVSA. Chavez has been slowly grinding that organization down, appointing political cronies who are replacing technical staff - many, who by the way, are moving to Alberta. Corruption may have nothing to do with it, but output is way down from Venezuela compared to five years ago. But again, that doesn't square with those outside Venezuela who are pro-Chavez.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
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The Owl Farm
No, it doesn't square with those who aren't making the profits they want,

Look, you don't like the links supplied on the internet? You are claiming to have inside information and telling us to trust you and we don't even know if you are from Florida. The only certain thing is that you are toeing the Bush line and slamming a man who is making a real difference to the poor people in South America. Sorry if you don't find any takers for what you are selling.

I'm not surprised to hear that you think oil-patch corruption is moving to Alberta though. Not exactly a scoop...the oil industry is the world's most corrupt industry and has been since the Rockefellers were poor folks.
 

Toro

Senate Member
I didn't say I supported what the US government is doing in Venezuela. Nor did I say Chavez wasn't helping the poor. What I did was lay out some facts - none of which was particullarly inside BTW since we've known oil production has been falling there for years. You can ply in rhetoric and cling to ideological biases all you wish, but you should know the outcome of the policies implemented by the people whom you support.
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,336
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Das Kapital
Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Toro said:
Sorry. Can't link it. Thought you might like to see what the grown-ups are looking at.

Besides, you know that the nuclear stuff is BS in Venezuela. It has nothing to do diversifying the economy. It has everything to do with playing politics at home and amongst the anti-gringos in Latin America. Saying you're going to work with Iran to develop nuclear power! Venezuela?! C'mon, you guys aren't that slow on the uptake, are you? It ain't going to happen. Chavez solidifies his base with such statements.

I tend to agree with that, Chavez doesn't have the bucks, all talk and no action.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
I didn't say I supported what the US government is doing in Venezuela.

Yet you came here to spin their story.

What I did was lay out some facts - none of which was particullarly inside BTW since we've known oil production has been falling there for years.

What you did was show up claiming to have inside information and refusing to provide links. Instead what you put up was, "From an intelligence source (sorry, no link)."

Your "intelligence source" does not mention the pressures being put Venezuela by the US or the fact that the oil companies are still pissed off at having to pay for what they take. It does not mention the strike by management, or that much of the work is still being controlled by those who hate Chavez.

You claim that your report is for investors. It's a report telling people not to invest...an attempt to bleed investment money out of the Venezuelan oil fields. In other words, it's a report with a political motive and is spun as such.

Now I don't think Chavez is perfect, so you can drop that line. I do know that he's done more for Venezuelans and other South Americans than any leader down there in recent memory. I know the US would shut him down if they could and that they've been playing all kinds of dirty tricks, including running a worldwide propaganda campaign against Chavez.