The Red Cross keeps condemning Bush for torturing people. Bush keeps doing it. Eric Margolis compares it to goings-on in the former USSR. http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/12/04/765847.html
Bush Has His Own Gulag
- Thread starter Reverend Blair
- Start date
I read the two articles, really impressive. I have to admit I kind of lost attention for Guantanomo Bay. It's shocking to read that Alberto Gonzales, US's highest law officer, adviced the White House to evade and even simply ignore the Geneva Conventions.
source: www.cnn.comFBI reports Guantanamo 'abuse'
Alleged incidents include physical abuse, 'intense isolation'
Wednesday, December 8, 2004 Posted: 4:52 AM EST (0952 GMT)
A reports says the FBI witnessed extreme interrogations of terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay.
WASHINGTON (CNN) - A memo from a senior FBI counterterrorism official has outlined three alleged cases of abuse in 2002 that FBI agents had become aware of while serving at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base prison. The complaints included allegations of a female interrogator grabbing a detainee's genitals and bending back his thumbs and a prisoner being gagged with duct tape.
Another complaint talked of a dog being used to intimidate a prisoner and jailers subjecting the same prisoner to what the FBI official called "intense isolation" in a "cell that was always flooded with light." The memo was written in July 2004 by Deputy Assistant Director for Counterterrorism Thomas Harrington, and was directed to Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder of the Army's Criminal Investigation Command.
In the first incident outlined by Harrington, an FBI agent was present in an observation room while an interrogation of a detainee was under way. A "Sgt. Lacey" (the memo says her first name is unknown) entered the room and ordered a Marine to duct tape a curtain over the observation window, thereby blocking the view of the interrogation. On a monitor showing the view of a surveillance camera, the FBI agent saw the sergeant "apparently whispering in the detainee's ear, and caressing and applying lotion to his arms.... On more than one occasion the detainee appeared to be grimacing in pain, and Sgt. Lacey's hands appeared to be making some contact with the detainee," the memo states.
Later it says the Marine who had been in the room came out, and the FBI agent asked what had happened. "The Marine said Sgt. Lacey had grabbed the detainee's thumbs and bent them backwards and indicated that she also grabbed his genitals. The Marine also implied that her treatment of that detainee was less harsh than her treatment of others by indicating that he had seen her treatment of other detainees result in detainees curling into a fetal position on the floor and crying in pain," the memo states.
The memo included another incident from October 2002 that involved a detainee being "gagged with duct tape that covered much of his head," according to an FBI agent's account. A contractor observing the detainee's interrogation told the FBI agent the detainee "had been chanting the Koran and would not stop."
The final case involves FBI agents allegedly observing a dog being used in an "aggressive manner to intimidate a detainee," who was subject to what the FBI official called "intense isolation" in a "cell that was always flooded with light." The FBI memo says at least the two first incidents were known to some Pentagon officials as far back as January 2003, when a U.S. Air Force captain referenced them in a timeline concerning the reported use of interrogation techniques.
Interestingly, the memo discusses a debate between FBI and Defense Department officials regarding the treatment of detainees. The author, Harrington, said he wrote the July 2004 document because he said he had no record that the FBI's "specific concerns regarding these three incidents were communicated to DOD for appropriate action." An FBI official confirmed the memo was authentic but refused any further comment.
Imprisoned
Many detainees at Guantanamo have been held without charge and without access to attorneys since the camp opened in January 2002. The United States has imprisoned about 550 men accused of links to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime or al Qaeda. Four have been charged.
The Associated Press reported it too had seen a letter from Harrington to Maj. Ryder but listed the two alleged incidents involving the same man - relating to the dog and the period of isolation - separately. Ryder is the Army's chief law enforcement officer who's investigating abuses at U.S.-run prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guantanamo, AP said.
It said that three of the four incidents mentioned in the letter it saw occurred under the watch of Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, who ran the Guantanamo camp from October 2002 to March 2004 and left to run Abu Ghraib prison.
Last month, Miller was reassigned to the Pentagon, with responsibility for housing and other support operations, AP said. The ACLU released internal government memos Tuesday that underscore the friction between the FBI and the military over interrogation methods, AP reported. The documents are among 5,000 that the New York-based American Civil Liberties Union received under two Freedom of Information Act requests, the group's executive director, Anthony Romero, told AP.
In one document obtained by the ACLU and seen by AP, an FBI agent recalls Miller wanting to "Gitmo-ize" the Abu Ghraib prison, where photographs surfaced of U.S. troops forcing Iraqi prisoners to strip and pose in sexually humiliating positions. Troops often refer to the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo as "Gitmo."
Commander: Allegations taken seriously
Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the current commander of the mission in Guantanamo, said allegations of mistreatment and abuse are taken seriously and investigated, AP reported. "The appropriate actions were taken. Some allegations are still under investigation," Hood told AP. None of the people named in the letter are still at the base, a Guantanamo spokesman told AP, but it was not clear if any disciplinary action had been taken. The letter identified the military interrogators only by last name and rank, and mentioned a civilian contractor.
Lt. Col. Gerard Healy, an Army spokesman, told AP the female interrogator identified as Sgt. Lacey was being investigated, but the Army would not comment further or fully identify her. The U.S. military says prisoners are treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit violence, torture and humiliating treatment. Still, at least 10 incidents of abuse have been substantiated at Guantanamo, all but one from 2003 or this year, AP reported.
Reverend Blair said:
"I suppose one could argue that we're fighting people who chop off the heads of their prisoners, so there. Since when have we taken up Abu al-Zarqawi as a role model? Some people have got to be held accountable for this, and that would include Congress."
Don't you think this is why Al-zarqawi is chopping heads? Getting even for the torture.
I never heard of chopping heads before the abuse at Guantanamo Bay or Iraq. So I am takning it as for every action (torture) there is a reaction (chopping heads).
decapitating an infant to remove a necklace known as a "Buddha Band" from the baby's neck. Vietnam american tiger force, cambodia murdered 2 million of their own citizens. The use of terror, murder, rape of the non combatants is stardard operating procedures in twentieth century. It is matter of degree, however according to my reading of american history, I thought that harry truman said "the buck stops here. The miltary must be accountable to political leadership, and that accountability means that " I was only following orders" will not cut it anymore. However as in all things in life, the proof is in the pudding. And I would say today that ideal is being sorely tested.
RE: Bush Has His Own Gula
The buck never stops at George Bush, or anybody in his administration. Hell, they never let it reach them. Everything is somebody else's fault with these guys. They seem to have that odd disease that only corporate shills catch.
The buck never stops at George Bush, or anybody in his administration. Hell, they never let it reach them. Everything is somebody else's fault with these guys. They seem to have that odd disease that only corporate shills catch.
The government is business, and business is the government, who else can afford a hundred million dollars per president. There is one funny thing about george bush jr, that his father being a member of the skull and bones still has yet to make his donation to his club, at sunday dinner at dad's house, he always gets nervous when george bush senior has a few drinks and starts patting him on the head.
Although the latter statement is true (the first stories of abuse in the Abu Ghraib prison come to the surface in April 2004; the first beheading - the one of Nicholas Berg - happened in May 2004), I do wonder how you can make the conclusion Al-Zarqawi started with these beheadings to "get even for the torture" [in the Abu Ghraib prison]?moghrabi said:
RE: Bush Has His Own Gula
I think the torture is being used more as a justification for that kind of brutality, Moghrabi. It really goes both ways...each side upping the ante and using the actions of the others to do so.
I think the torture is being used more as a justification for that kind of brutality, Moghrabi. It really goes both ways...each side upping the ante and using the actions of the others to do so.
Bush has his own Gulag?
Both of those links provided are merely speculation and opinion from Bush haters. Don't you just love to read an anti-Bush missive, knowing there is exaggeration and bias, then get yourself all worked up over it.
Both of those links provided are merely speculation and opinion from Bush haters. Don't you just love to read an anti-Bush missive, knowing there is exaggeration and bias, then get yourself all worked up over it.
Hey! Paco
I sure wish you'd point me towards a story that was not biased.
Hey! Moghrabi
When kidnappings began, the victim was dressed in orange jumpsuits just like Gitmo and Abu Gharib prisons.
Here is some info on "Beheading" .....
Question
Does beheading hurt? And, if so, for how long is the severed head aware of its plight?
By William Wild , Oxford
Answers
Yes, beheading hurts. How much depends on the executioner's skill, or lack of it.
When Mary, Queen of Scots, was executed at Fotheringay Castle in 1587, a clumsy headsman gave her three strokes without quite managing to sever her head. The headsman then had to saw though the skin and gristle with his sheath knife before the job could be regarded as complete. The profound, protracted groan Mary gave when the axe first hit left the horrified witnesses in no doubt that her pain was excruciating.
How long is the interval of consciousness after the head is severed? In France, in the days of the guillotine, some of the condemned were asked to blink their eyes if they were still conscious after the knife fell. Reportedly, their heads blinked for up to 30 seconds after decapitation. How much of this was voluntary and how much due to reflex nerve action is speculation. Most nations with science sophisticated enough to determine this question have long since abandoned decapitation as a legal tool.
http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/article.jsp?id=lw719
***
The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading
By Andrew G. Bostom
May 13, 2004
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13371
The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading
Historical background.
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/behead.html
Beheading:
Heeding Bible Prophecy: New Laws
http://www.watch.pair.com/new-laws.html#12.C
I sure wish you'd point me towards a story that was not biased.
Hey! Moghrabi
When kidnappings began, the victim was dressed in orange jumpsuits just like Gitmo and Abu Gharib prisons.
Here is some info on "Beheading" .....
Question
Does beheading hurt? And, if so, for how long is the severed head aware of its plight?
By William Wild , Oxford
Answers
Yes, beheading hurts. How much depends on the executioner's skill, or lack of it.
When Mary, Queen of Scots, was executed at Fotheringay Castle in 1587, a clumsy headsman gave her three strokes without quite managing to sever her head. The headsman then had to saw though the skin and gristle with his sheath knife before the job could be regarded as complete. The profound, protracted groan Mary gave when the axe first hit left the horrified witnesses in no doubt that her pain was excruciating.
How long is the interval of consciousness after the head is severed? In France, in the days of the guillotine, some of the condemned were asked to blink their eyes if they were still conscious after the knife fell. Reportedly, their heads blinked for up to 30 seconds after decapitation. How much of this was voluntary and how much due to reflex nerve action is speculation. Most nations with science sophisticated enough to determine this question have long since abandoned decapitation as a legal tool.
http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/article.jsp?id=lw719
***
The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading
By Andrew G. Bostom
May 13, 2004
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13371
The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading
Historical background.
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/behead.html
Beheading:
Heeding Bible Prophecy: New Laws
http://www.watch.pair.com/new-laws.html#12.C
Actually I read an article a while back proving scientifically that beheading is very painless (of course depending on the executioner).
But when the knife hits the right artery in the neck, the person goes into unconsciousness. he does not feel anything after that. Now you may ask does the body keeps moving? It is because the brain is asking to replace the blood is not getting. All body organs try to supply the brain with blood and you see this kind of jerking.
Anyway you look at it, it is sick in my opinion.
But when the knife hits the right artery in the neck, the person goes into unconsciousness. he does not feel anything after that. Now you may ask does the body keeps moving? It is because the brain is asking to replace the blood is not getting. All body organs try to supply the brain with blood and you see this kind of jerking.
Anyway you look at it, it is sick in my opinion.