The Netherlands

Omega

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Nov 12, 2004
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Ricky, I've been reading with interest the newspaper reports about how the Dutch people are becoming aware that the Islamist immigrants in their country aren't all there for peaceful purposes.

I read that The Netherlands is a very liberal country in that they allow legal prostitution, the legal sale and use of drugs, and also have welcomed thousands of Islamist immigrants into their country, at least until recently. Now, they are beginning to think twice about these immigrants, especially after the bloody and cold blooded murder of one of their own.

Would you tell us just what is going on there and what, if any, actions are being taken? How do you feel about this?
 

Rick van Opbergen

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Sep 16, 2004
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Hello Omega, it's nice to see you have such an interest in this :) It is very difficult to answer your questions, but I will try.

As you already pointed out, the direct cause for the disturbed atmosphere at the moment was the murder of Vincent van Gogh by a fundamentalist Muslim. Van Gogh was a controversial person, who had an opinion about everything. He has been called an anti-semite, islamophobic, christian-hater, etc, etc. He has said things like "Gosh, what does it smell like caramel in here. I guess they're burning Jews with diabetes today" and "all Muslims are goatfuckers". He was not my type of guy, but we Dutch very much like our right to say what we want - freedom of speech is sacred in here, people may dislike you but you are free to say things about all types of people, as long as you don't openly call up to kill a certain group or something like that.

But there was at least one person who didn't understand that, and he killed Van Gogh. Some Dutch call it a wake-up call. They point at this gap there exists between the autochthonous Dutch and the Dutch Muslim community. They're partly right I'm afraid. A lot of foreigners - not only people from the Muslim community - live in large ghettos, especially in cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam or The Hague, where 30 - 40% of the population is foreign. We ignored that for too long. Because of that, these communities are very isolated, and have minimal contact with other Dutch. I personally was shocked to read an article a week ago about the neighborhood where the killer of Van Gogh, Mohammed B., grew up. There were young persons, who were born in the Netherlands, spoke Dutch and even dressed in a Western style who said "I have never ever talked with a white Dutchman before in my life [referring to the fact the interviewer was a white Dutchman]. The only people I know are foreign. I have no idea how a Dutchman thinks, what it is to be Dutch".

People are considering that to be a problem. I do too, but some Dutch believe that only violence and total controll can get this "group" to do what "we" want.

Some people say our society has failed. They say "The Netherlands used to be a haven for people from other cultures, with other beliefs. It was so hundreds of years ago, when Portuguese Jews, French Protestants, and even Indonesians, came to our country and fitted in very well. But with this large relatively new immigrant community, we have failed." They point at the fact that so many immigrants do not speak Dutch; so many immigrants hold on to very traditional beliefs which can not fit into the Dutch values and way of thinking; they point at certain imams who call up for gays to be killed (something what made very many Dutch very angry, because I can proudly say that the Netherlands is one of the most liberal countries when it comes to gays and gay rights - gay marriage, gay parade in Amsterdam etc.); imams who call up to beat your wife, or - as what happened two days ago - imams who do not want to shake hands with a woman [explanation: our female minister of Integration - yes, we have a minister of Integration - had called up for a meeting with at least 50 imams to inform them about the new ruling that every imam has to learn Dutch within a year. When the meeting began, she wanted to shake all imams a hand. 49 had no problems with this. 1 however said in front of the cameras that he could not give her a hand, because she was a woman. Our minister was really angry, but eventually she accepted it. And because of that incident, a lot of Dutch were extremely offended, because they see it as a violation of Dutch values concerning women]. I personally think I know too little about our immigrant community to make any conclusions about it. I honestly have only minimal contacts with foreign Dutch, I live in a very white suburb in the south, a suburb which does have some foreigners but they are called "the good foreigners" by some Dutch: Indonesians, Chinese, Americans, Englishmen. I mean, it's kinda funny thinking about it, halve of my friends is foreign, but I don't think I will find many Dutchmen who will "agree" with me, because they are "good foreigners": one is English, one is Japanese, another one is Chinese and another one Bulgarian. Being a "foreigner" means something negative here I guess, thinking about it ...

But there are eventually also some "positive" things which have happened after Van Gogh's murder: people are aware that our society is also hardening, and so people are coming closer together. And luckily, a lot of people let the especially Muslim community participate in that. Because I think of all communities in the Netherlands, it has been probably the Muslim community who has been hit hardest after the murder of Van Gogh: attacks on Muslim schools (as you might have read somewhere, one of those attacked schools was in my town, Eindhoven, where they put a bomb at the front door - luckily nobody was hurt), burnings of mosques, Muslims being beaten, called names etc. Luckily nobody has been killed so far, but I still fear the worst. And because this all, other Dutch do many things to show their solidarity. In my hometown, some 500 people - mostly Dutch - gathered at the attacked school to show their solidarity; in Uden, a place nearby where an Islamic school was burned to the ground, up to 8,000 people gathered to show their support for the Muslim community (and imagine, the town has only 40,000 citizens). Prominent Dutch have called up to respect your Muslim neighbor, and to separate them completely from the fundamentalists.

I just hope that will help, because Islamophobia has never been so "popular".

I can go on and on and on about this, Omega, I'm glad I can actually, because people are also a bit scared (although they will definitely deny that) to give their opinion after what happened. But I think this is good for now. I hope you have gotten a little bit more insight in what has happened, and is still happening, in the Netherlands.
 

Omega

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Nov 12, 2004
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Hi Rick,

I have only skimmed your answer, but it looks interesting and I will answer you tomorrow.
 

Omega

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Nov 12, 2004
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Hi Rick,

Thank you very much for your well-written response. It is full of thoughtfulness and sincerity which I respect.

It seems that those countries which are most generous in accepting refugees are learning a hard lesson today. The result of this generosity is that we don't screen refugees as carefully as we should, and many of these people don't come to our countries to find peace and a new life, they come to do damage by bringing their values with them and carrying on their customs in a peaceful country. Naturally the local people don't like this--it is changing the face of our nation and other nations too.

Your remark:

"I can go on and on and on about this, Omega, I'm glad I can actually, because people are also a bit scared (although they will definitely deny that) to give their opinion after what happened..."

is true here too. People are afraid to give their opinions about foreign dissidents in our midst because they fear reprisal. That is a terrible situation and I've read a statement that Islam is incompatible with democracy, which very well might be true. We are so very different and apart in our values.

In our province of Ontario, the government allows Islamists to use Shar'ia laws as long as they don't override laws of Canada. My province of British Columbia is contemplating allowing the same thing. We also have imams who preach hate for Jews, etc.

This is not what the Canadian people want for their country, at least most of us don't want it. People who come to Canada and don't integrate, don't respect our laws and want to instigate their own cultural values for themselves here should be sent back where they came from in my opinion. Canada's immigration policies must be tightened up to prevent any more of this, or one day we won't have anything left of our original culture.

Canada is a country made up of immigrants and always has been. Most immigrants are very happy to live here, as well they should be, they meld into the larger community and work hard for a living. They add much to our society. We don't want or need fundamentalists who only come here to make trouble.

Again, thanks Rick for your splendid response. I am impressed!
 

Rick van Opbergen

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Sep 16, 2004
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I don't know whether this problem of some radical young Muslims is due to a lack of good screening, or being generous in accepting foreigners. Along with Denmark, the Netherland has the toughest asylum policy of all EU countries. It should also be taken in consideration that many of these radical Muslims were actually born in the Netherlands.

Not so long ago I saw a French documentary on Belgian television, and it was about the radicalization of France's Muslim youth. What they showed were Muslim youngsters who grew up in the worst places in France - large ghettos at the outskirts of large cities. Apartment building after apartment building. They lived in an isolated world. Many were disappointed, disillusioned. Feeling as if they had been rejected by society. The perfect pre-conditions for radical imams to spread their message of intolerance. Radical imams gave them something to live for - even to die for. Most of them didn't feel French, didn't want to feel French - "The French don't care about us, we don't care about the French". Same thing can be said of certain ghettos here. We failed.
 

Omega

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Nov 12, 2004
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Quote from Rick:

Most of them didn't feel French, didn't want to feel French - "The French don't care about us, we don't care about the French". Same thing can be said of certain ghettos here. We failed.

I am sorry you feel the Dutch have failed, Rick. I don't believe you have failed. I believe you were innocent enough to think that people from a different country would go to the Netherlands with gratitude in their hearts, and become good citizens.

The West is all subject to such innocence, but now that we've learned differently we can do something about it.

The young Islamists you mentioned are really very much like most young people who feel discouraged and haven't yet found their place in the world, whether in France or the Netherlands or Canada.

Rick, I have the impression that you are very young. That is what I meant when I said I was impressed by your mature thoughts on the situation in the Netherlands. I did not mean to sound condescending to you at all, but if I did please forgive me. I do have an inclination for mothering people...whether they need it or not.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

Council Member
Jul 6, 2004
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Yuh know; I've always had a fear of people with dark skin. An uncomfortable feeling comes over me when I pass them on the street or encounter them during daily living.
I suspect them all!
I fear them all!

I don't quite understand why.
They never did me any personal harm or injury.
But, I feel anxiety when in their presence.

I guess it was the media which shaped my fears and opinions.

The same thing is happening to muslims ..... and it is shameful.

In my working career, I once had a job servicing restaurants. An immigrant was the first employee to arrive in the morning and it was an immigrant who was the last employee to leave at night.

I live on a fixed income. I only eat once a day. Lots of times I only eat a bag of potato chips as a meal. But, there is an immigrant who owns a small variety store across the road and he allows me credit or I would be awful hungry tonight.

One time I was broke and hydro was gonna disconnect me. My family doctor gave me 500 bucks and he is an immigrant from India.

Extremists, murderers and dysfunctional people can be found anywhere or be of any race or religion.

What would of happened if this person had access to bomb making materials? Or had a gun?
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/10257244.htm

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041113/1315601392.htm&sc=1110

If I were in charge of immigration, I would open the doors as wide as possible. Immigration creates employment. Each immigrant who arrives upon our shores needs a fridge and a pair of shoes in the morning. I'm doubtful of foreign aid. I would rather invite an immigrant into Canada and invest money in their future as Canadians.

At this very moment, the US is considering the issuing of drivers licences to immigrants. The arguments used when opposing the legislation is "security". But in reality, if immigrants are given drivers licences, they will begin to take truck and transportation jobs away from Americans. The same "lower" wage patterns will take place with the transportation industry as what took place within other service industries.

I think our main fears begin with our economic racism and these fears are exagerated by the media with television shows announcing the failures of some immigrants and not so much their success.

Calm
 

Rick van Opbergen

House Member
Sep 16, 2004
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The Netherlands
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Omega said:
I am sorry you feel the Dutch have failed, Rick. I don't believe you have failed. I believe you were innocent enough to think that people from a different country would go to the Netherlands with gratitude in their hearts, and become good citizens.
Just to clear one thing up: I do not think we have failed on all fields. There are so many examples of good will, good thoughts, good work, by both autochthonous and foreign Dutchmen. But I think we failed on the part of thinking above all that we are a very open society, in which new Dutchmen can easily integrate. It's not. I have read many reports about it lately, and the conclusion by many is that both "parties" failed; that both organisations representing immigrants as well as the Dutch government have failed to see, or even ignored, the first signs which indicted that not every immigrant is accepted in Dutch society, and that not all immigrants want to embrace Dutch society.

Omega said:
Rick, I have the impression that you are very young. That is what I meant when I said I was impressed by your mature thoughts on the situation in the Netherlands. I did not mean to sound condescending to you at all, but if I did please forgive me. I do have an inclination for mothering people...whether they need it or not.
Omega, you don't have to "apologize" for something I didn't even experience like that :) . I really appreciate your posts, and I also appreciate you have an interest in this. Some European newspapers say we are an example of the future Europe; not a Europe of burning mosques and attacking Muslims of course (that is, I hope not), but a Europe were people should realize that there are certain problems on this field, not on the entire field of course - definitely not -, and that to ensure we will not faced with major problems between all communities, we should react on early signs; to bring certain immigrant groups out of isolation; to involve "old" Europeans in creating bridges with the "new" Europeans; to ensure that we will not be faced with a Europe of increased tensions between all ethnic groups. I guess the solution will be complex and tough, but I don't see how else we could react.

Paranoid Dot Calm said:
I think our main fears begin with our economic racism and these fears are exagerated by the media with television shows announcing the failures of some immigrants and not so much their success.
True. So true.