Bush if Starting to Fire up the War Machine

[Reverend Blair]

An interesting opinion column from the NYT

Puzzlement turned to alarm yesterday when The Washington Post reported that Mr. Powell's comments were based on unverified information that had been brought to the United States by a previously unknown source whose reliability and authenticity had not yet been vetted. That certainly did bring back old memories - of Mr. Powell assuring the world that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons, based on fanciful intelligence reports about aluminum tubes.

Steven Weisman of The Times reported that administration hawks were also talking about fresh intelligence on Iran's support for Hezbollah, which the world has known about for decades, and Iran's support for insurgents in Iraq, another old story. The hawks seem to be already starting to throw cold water on the prospects for a negotiated solution to the Iranian nuclear problem while trying to open the door to contemplating a military option. An administration official told The Times that Mr. Powell was trying to avoid meeting with the Iranian foreign minister at a conference both men are to attend in Egypt next week.

The whole article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/20/opinion/20sat1.html?oref=login&th but you'll need a free subscription.

 

[Just the Facts]

That certainly did bring back old memories

One huge difference in this case is that Iran doesn't seem to be denying. In fact, they've been boasting about their weapons program, and I actually read a quote a while ago where they promised to use nukes against Israel.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Bush if Starting to F

They do not have nukes yet though, and they do not have a delivery system that threatens the United States, so any attack on them would not meet the criteria of a legal war.

Iran can also argue that they are being threatened by the United States and need nukes to protect themselves. The US has no moral authority when it come to nuclear proliferation because they too are developing nukes.

The US needs to back off and let Europe handle this diplomatically. I doubt they will, but they really should.

 

[Andem]

That certainly did bring back old memories

One huge difference in this case is that Iran doesn't seem to be denying. In fact, they've been boasting about their weapons program, and I actually read a quote a while ago where they promised to use nukes against Israel.

The promised to use nukes against Israel? That's self-destruction.

Would you mind finding a source for that claim? I just find it hard to believe that someone would do something so stupid.. That's just giving the US a tangable and real reason (and justification) to attack Iran.

 

[Just the Facts]

Would you mind finding a source for that claim?

I'm sure I read a more recent one, I'll post it when I find it. Here's one though:

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a
great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and
seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third
part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be
delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was
born...And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels
fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his
angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any
more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old
serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the
whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels
were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:3-4, 7-9)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/041116/cx_rrogers_umedia/20041611

 

[moghrabi]

That certainly did bring back old memories

One huge difference in this case is that Iran doesn't seem to be denying. In fact, they've been boasting about their weapons program, and I actually read a quote a while ago where they promised to use nukes against Israel.

While Israel is believed to possess between 100 to 200 nuclear war heads, the Islamic Republic and Iraq are known to be working hard to produce their own atomic weapons with help from Russia and North Korea, Pakistan, also a Muslim state, has already a certain number of nuclear bomb.

Now who is a threat to the other? Why doesn't the US worry about Nuclear bombs in Israel? Or arethey very special?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven... etc.

What's your point here, Calm? Are you prophesying the end of the world, or claiming that current events were predicted in Revelation and there's nothing we can do about them? Or something else? Where are you going with this?

Depending on your response (assuming you respond, which you're certainly not obliged to do), I'll have a few sharp things to say about self-fulfilling prophecies and beliefs in absolute knowledge and Biblical inerrancy and related matters.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

But on thinking it over a little more, I suspect (and hope) what you're up to is making cynical comments about the Bush administration's value system, which certainly begs to have cynical comments made about it.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hey! Dexter Sinister

No. I don't read that garbage. I don't go to any church. I always remembered that our bible says ...."Where two or more people gather in my name, I will be there."
And because I'm a twin, this suits me just fine.

I only included the text to sort of contrast the morality of Christains and the facts of the real world.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the current situation as I
understand it.

1. Ahmad Chalabi, an Iranian spy, was paid about $300,000 a month by
the U.S. to provide false intelligence on Iraq's nonexistant weapons
of mass destruction and sucker the U.S. into invading Iran's
arch-enemy, Iraq.

2. U.S. troops are now tied down in Iraq, a country that had a secular
government and no weapons of mass destruction. Our military forces are
stetched thin and reservists have been called back in an effort to
maintain minimum troop strength. We would probably need as many as
500,000 draftees to fight a war against Iran and it's doubtful if we
count on a lot of assistance or cooperation from our former allies in
Europe or from the Soviet Union or China.

3. Iran has a combined troop strength of about 1 million. They have a
respectable navy and about 300 fighter jets. Iran is nearly four times
the size of Iraq with harsh, mountainous terrain.

4. Bush has promised there will be no military draft and it's
questionable, anyway, if the public would support another expensive
war, especially with a budget deficit of about $500 billion.

5. Iran is becoming very beligerant. Shouting "Death to America" and
"Death to Israel", Iranian lawmakers recently decided unanimously to
back a bill that would require the Islamic government to resume
Uranium enrichment. Iran has huge reserves of Uranium. Iran has been
linked to the Iraq insurgency.

6. Iran is thought to be about 2 years away from possessing a nuclear
bomb.

So, what do we do about Iran?

Here is something else I found.

To Destroy Iran’s Nuclear Bomb Program, 350 Targets Must Be Hit
November 19, 2004
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=940

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall
shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even
the elect."
Mark 13:22, KJV

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even
as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily
shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
2 Peter 2:1, KJV

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are
gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1, KJV

On Being A Christain Poll
http://www.conservativecloset.com/vote/tbac.html

Couple Accused in Plot to Sacrifice Kids
November 13, 2004
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041113/1315601392.htm&sc=1110



Calm

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

What do Christians have to do with this discussion? I'm a bit confused.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Well now Calm, I dunno about your point number 1, but the other five ring true to me, except for the notion of the U.S. being suckered into invading Iraq. Iraq was the target from the beginning, even before 9/11, but it's not really about Iraq. It's not even about terrorism anymore, it's about the way the U.S. wants to run the planet.

Like Rick van Opbergen, however, I'm still not sure where you're going with this. Are you suggesting Bush is gearing up for an invasion of Iran? Or that we (by which I presume you mean the Western world) need to do something violent about Iran? There's something I'm not getting. Iranians have been shouting about death to America and death to Israel for decades, and so have a lot of other people in that part of the world.

I can vaguely see the connection with Christianity you seem to be making with all those Biblical citations: the Bush administration is pretty much a Christian theocracy but is not behaving in any sense like good Christians should, it's using religious values to justify its secular interests. But I really don't see a link between your Biblical citations and the current state of the world.

Dex

 

[Reverend Blair]

In fact, they've been boasting about their weapons program, and I actually read a quote a while ago where they promised to use nukes against Israel.

That one's a year old and was dismissed by most analysts at the time as mere rhetoric to drum up support. It seems to me that a minor cleric echoed it four or five months ago, but I'm not sure.

A lot of negotiating has taken place during that time. Tentative agreements have reached, progress has been made. The Bush regime started rattling sabres after the EU got Iran to agree to suspend uranium enrichment and allow inspections. That sabre rattling is based on questionable intelligence.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hi! Rick van Opbergen

I'm sorry. I thought about someone might ask exactly what you asked .... "What has religion got to do with it?"

Well, right or wrongly, I always think of Bush being on a crusade. Actually, I think he suffers religious delusions. Every move he makes, I see it through "religious" eyes. Most times, I find it funny.
I was just trying to add some "dry" humour.

Iran is no immediate threat to the US. But, Bush might just take them on to protect 12 million nobody's from Israel. Imagine, 12 million Jewish folks holding the US up for ransom? 12 million American families went to bed hungry last night and Bush is talking about 12 million Israeli's.

Calm

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

OK but that makes it seem like Christianity is equal to Bush's way of handling the world. And just for the facts: there are not 12, but 6 million Israelis, of which 800,000 or so are not Jewish. And why are they nobody's? What makes them nobody's?

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

I had to laugh when you corrected the 12 million to 6 million ... so I guess half of them were nobody's!

What I meant by nobody's is that they don't deserve "protection" at the cost of American lives any more than those folks living in Sudan, as an example.

I was only trying to make the point that Jewish folks are nobody's on the world stage! The state of Israel has no water, and no natural resources.

Calm

 

[Paco]

While Israel is believed to possess between 100 to 200 nuclear war heads, the Islamic Republic and Iraq are known to be working hard to produce their own atomic weapons with help from Russia and North Korea, Pakistan, also a Muslim state, has already a certain number of nuclear bomb.

Now who is a threat to the other? Why doesn't the US worry about Nuclear bombs in Israel? Or arethey very special?

The Arab world has long hated the Jews. They have repeatedly screamed for the death of the Jewish state. Give Iran nuclear weapons and they will use them against Israel.

On the other hand, Israel does appear to be special. The U.S. doesn't worry about Israel using them because Israel has them for defense only.

The U.S will have to do nothing here. Israel will take out the capability of Iran to produce those weapons.

 

[moghrabi]

RE: Bush if Starting to F

We will have to wait and see. Iran is different than Iraq. You have to hit many nuclear spots to destroy it capability. By the time this is acheived, Israel could be wiped out from the surface of the earth. I hope this doesn't happen but it is a scenario that might happen.

There was a lot learned since Israel destroyed the Iraqi nuclear installation. That was one installation. Iran had it planned differently and Israel knows that they can't destroy it that easily. On the other hand, Israel is the size of vancouver Island and can be wiped out in no time even taking the Pals with them.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

“Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?”
By Kurt Nimmo
November 18, 2004
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7320.htm

Tiptoeing around Our Problems
By Dr. William Pierce
May 2002
http://www.natall.com/free-speech/fs0205c.html

The Sweetheart Contract With Sharon
By Patrick J. Buchanan
November 17, 2004
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7318.htm

Through No Fault of Their Own: Israel's Punitive House Demolitions in the al-Aqsa Intifada
By B'tselem
November 18, 2004
(If an interface turns up, asking about "Language?" Choose "Cancel")
http://www.btselem.org/.../Punitive_House_Demolitions_2004.asp

 

[moghrabi]

RE: Bush if Starting to F

Excellent read. Thanks Paranoid.