Scottish nationalism: Petulance, grievance and victimhood

No Party Affiliation
Scotland will benefit. It's clear to see
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Scotland will benefit. It's clear to see

How so?
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

Scotland would benefit only if England could negotiate open trade with the EU, and that would require accepting free migration. Do you honestly think England would accept that? Maybe, but it would be a hard sell there right now.

Technically, an independent Scotland could choose to use the currency it wants. The question is what kind of control it would have over it. If it joins the EU, then the EU central bank is controlled by all member states equally, so the Euro would be an option. If it opts to keep the pound, it would probably have no control over it since England would insist on not sharing that control.

But since Scotland trades more with the UK than with others, separate currencies just mean more overhead costs in money conversion.

The Euro wouldn't be an option if Scotland left the UK and then handed over its sovereignty to Brussels by joining the EU. It would have, by law, to join the euro at some point after it joined the EU as all new member states have to adopt it. But the euro is a troubled currency which has left many of its users in the economic doldrums and most Scots likely don't want to adopt it - but they'll have to adopt it if they left the UK and joined the EU.

This is one of the reasons that Scottish secession from the UK is much less likely, not more likely, because of Brexit.

What currency Scotland outside the UK would use is something the SNP have failed to answer despiote being asked repeatedly.
No Party Affiliation
Obviously, Scotland will benefit
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Obviously, Scotland will benefit

How so?
'Scotland IS leaving the EU, one way or another', says Theresa: PM lays down the law to Sturgeon after First Minister scales back ambitions for Brussels links - as FOUR polls show she faces LOSING independence vote most Scots don't want

Nicola Sturgeon has demanded a second referendum on Scottish independence

But already suffered setbacks with polls showing strong majority still back union

First Minister said to be ready to accept Scotland would not stay fully within EU

Two thirds of Scots want the bloc to have reduced powers or for the UK to leave

Theresa May warns that Scotland will leave EU even if it votes for independence

By James Tapsfield, Political Editor For Mailonline and Abe Hawken For Mailonline
15 March 2017

Theresa May heaped pressure on Nicola Sturgeon today by insisting Scotland will leave the EU even if it votes for independence.

The Prime Minister insisted there was no possibility that the First Minister's planned referendum could result in the country staying in the Brussels club.

The blunt message came as Miss Sturgeon suffered a big blow to her ambitions with four polls showing she faces defeat if the ballot is held.

Theresa May warned during PMQs today that Scotland would be leaving the EU whether or not it votes for independence

Four polls today delivered serious blows to Nicola Sturgeon's ambition of Scotland becoming independent

She is expected to respond to the glaring evidence that she is out of step with public opinion by calling for an independent Scotland to have a looser Norway-style link with the EU, rather than full membership.

The array of surveys today showed there is still a significant majority in Scotland in favour of remaining in the UK - and people do not want a ballot staged before Brexit happens.

Research for the Scottish Daily Mail suggested 53 per cent want to stay in the union once you exclude those yet to decide. By a margin of 46 per cent to 41 per cent people oppose Mrs Sturgeon's call for a referendum to be held before the divorce process from the EU is complete.

A YouGov poll for The Times put the majority against independence even higher at 57-43.

ComRes research for the Sun found just 25 per cent of Scots thought the country should be fully independent, against 58 per cent who thought it should not and 17 per cent who were not sure.

Meanwhile, the huge annual Scottish Social Attitudes Survey included evidence of a sharp rise in Euroscepticism.

Two thirds of the public north of the border would want Brussels to have reduced powers or for the UK to leave the EU completely, according to the research.

Nicola Sturgeon (pictured) called for a second independence vote for Scotland

The Mail's poll of 1,019 Scots, carried out by Survation between March 8-13, found that 46 per cent oppose Nicola Sturgeon's plan to hold another independence referendum before Brexit, while only 41 per cent support it and 13 per cent were undecided or didn't know.

It also revealed that 48 per cent of Scots would vote No again if there was a referendum, compared to 43 per cent that would vote Yes and nine per cent who were undecided. When undecided voters are stripped out, it gives No a 53-47 majority.

Crucially, the poll also found majority support for Mrs May rejecting any demand from the SNP to hold a referendum before Brexit, with 36 per cent of respondents saying the Prime Minister should reject any request to hold another vote, a further 18 per cent saying she should accept the request but only allow the vote after Brexit, and 31 per cent saying she should devolve the power.

In the wake of the boost, Mrs May told MPs at PMQs today: 'Scotland will be leaving the EU.

'It will leave the EU either as a member of the UK or were it independent ...

'What we need to do now is unite ... and make sure that we can get the best deal for the whole of the UK.'

A Daily Mail poll today showed there is still a solid majority in Scotland against independence

Ms Sturgeon met her Cabinet in Edinburgh for the first time after she shocked Westminster by declaring her plans for a new vote

The EU has flatly dismissed the prospect of Scotland staying inside the club if it splits - with Spain fiercely opposed because of fears about encouraging its own Catalan separatists.

There are also claims that one of Miss Sturgeon's top advisers believes the Scottish economy could take a decade to recover after independence.

In a sign of the nerves among the nationalists, the SNP's Westminster leader Angus Robertson today stressed that there was still time to avert an independence referendum.

The MP said the party's 'efforts are currently focused' on persuading Theresa May to give them guarantees about access to the European single market.

But he also warned that there were only 'days, maybe weeks' to avert the prospect of a vote.

Mrs May is looking to build support for her approach to Brexit by embarking on a tour of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland before she triggers Article 50 later this month.

Her visit to Scotland could be crucial in determining whether Mrs Sturgeon pushes ahead with a vote.

The Scottish Social Attitudes survey of 1,237 voters has asked the same questions about independence and the EU every year since 1999 and reveals growing Euroscepticism.

It found that 67 per cent of Scots are unhappy with the EU - including 25 per cent of Scots who want to leave entirely and 42 per cent who want its powers to be reduced.

The polling evidence has crystalised fears that Miss Sturgeon's demand to stay fully within the bloc might turn off 400,000 voters who backed both independence and Brexit.

The last referendum in 2014 - which the SNP said would settle the issue for a 'generation' - delivered a 55 per cent majority for staying the UK, equivalent to two million votes.

SNP sources were this morning trying to play down reports that Miss Sturgeon would downscale her ambitions to membership of the European Free Trade Association.

Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein are all in that group, giving them access to the single market.

But they have to comply with rules imposed by Brussels and have no real input into legislation which is drawn up in the Belgian capital.

Scotland was warned that if it chooses to leave the UK, it will also be leaving the EU and would have to rejoin as a new member. All new members since 1999 have been obliged to join the Euro.

Andrew Wilson, who heads up the Growth Commission set up by Miss Sturgeon to examine the economic prospects for an independent Scotland, apparently made a dire prediction about the fallout from leaving the UK.

At a summit of senior party figures in January, he suggested it would take five to 10 years for the economy to return to the position it is now, according to Holyrood magazine.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, said: 'The SNP's plans to impose a referendum on independence in Scotland have unravelled within 24 hours.'

And in a move which could deal another blow to Ms Sturgeon, Prime Minister Theresa May told the Commons that after visiting Brussels she could not foresee Scotland being allowed to join the EU if it became independent.

Meanwhile, the Scottish Conservatives slammed the SNP's plans and said that they 'unravelled' in just 24 hours and were left in 'total confusion', reports the newspaper.

It also came on the same day Spain warned Scotland it would be at the 'back of the queue' for EU membership if it voted for independence.

Ms Sturgeon is demanding a second independence referendum take place once the outline of Brexit is clear but before it takes place

Her announcement infuriated Prime Minister Theresa May (pictured) who has hinted that she could not see Brussels allowing an independent Scotland to join the EU

The Mail poll found 46 per cent of Scots oppose holding a second independence referendum

Alfonso Dastis, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Spain, said Spain would do nothing to encourage 'secession' in other countries.

The Spanish government has a long dispute with its own Catalonia region.

Mr Dastis said: 'Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states.

'We prefer things to stay as they are.'

Miss Sturgeon and Mrs May engaged in an extraordinary public slanging match yesterday after the threat to call another referendum.

The First Minister branded the PM 'unelected' and dismissed jibes that she did not have a mandate to trigger a fresh ballot so soon after the issue was meant to have been settled.

But Mrs May accused Miss Sturgeon of 'playing games' with the future of the UK, saying she was willing to do anything to fulfil her ambition of breaking up the union.

The Westminster government has to give approval for a binding referendum to be held, meaning that the PM could theoretically block a poll.

However, ministers are resigned to the prospect of a vote as they believe refusing would just fuel nationalist sentiment.

Instead Mrs May is preparing for a pitch battle with Miss Sturgeon over the timing of the referendum - insisting her preferred schedule of Autumn 2018 is unacceptable and the ballot cannot be held before Brexit is finalised the following year.

Read more: PM tells Sturgeon that Scotland WILL leave the EU | Daily Mail Online
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Last edited by Blackleaf; Mar 16th, 2017 at 06:38 AM..
No Party Affiliation
Things will be good for Scotland once they go on their own.
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Things will be good for Scotland once they go on their own.

There is no political party in Scotland that wants Scotland to go on its own. All its major political parties are anti-independence, unionist parties.

They are either unionist parties that want Scotland in the UK and ruled from London - like Kezia Dugdale's Scottish Labour Party and Ruth Davidson's Scottish Conservative Party - or they are unionist parties that want Scotland in the EU and ruled from Brussels, like Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish "National" Party.
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

There is no political party in Scotland that wants Scotland to go on its own. All its major political parties are anti-independence, unionist parties.

They are either unionist parties that want Scotland in the UK and ruled from London - like Kezia Dugdale's Scottish Labour Party and Ruth Davidson's Scottish Conservative Party - or they are unionist parties that want Scotland in the EU and ruled from Brussels, like Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish "National" Party.

That actually shows intelligence. An understanding that unity is strength.
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

That actually shows intelligence. An understanding that unity is strength.

Leaving a union of four nations only to then join a union of 28 nations which is corrupt, undemocratic and economically sclerotic in which you will have even less say in matters is not a sign of intelligence - it's a sign of madness, particularly coming from people who call themselves Scottish nationalists.
You wouldn't want nationalism rhetoric creeping into politics.
No Party Affiliation
Scotland will do well on its own
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Scotland will do well on its own

How so?
Theresa May is to block a second Scottish "independence" referendum...

Scottish independence: Referendum demand 'will be rejected'

16 March 2017
BBC News

Theresa May: "We should be working together, not pulling apart"

The UK government is to reject calls for a Scottish independence referendum before Brexit after Theresa May said "now is not the time".

The Prime Minister said the focus should be on getting the best Brexit deal for the whole of the UK.

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said Nicola Sturgeon's demand for a vote by the spring of 2019 would be rejected "conclusively".

Ms Sturgeon said blocking a referendum would be a "democratic outrage".

Ms Sturgeon, the Scottish First Minister, told BBC Scotland: "It is an argument for independence really in a nutshell, that Westminster thinks it has got the right to block the democratically elected mandate of the Scottish government and the majority in the Scottish Parliament.

"You know history may look back on today and see it as the day the fate of the union was sealed."

Ms Sturgeon has called for a referendum to be held in the autumn of 2018 or the spring of the following year, to coincide with the conclusion of the UK's Brexit negotiations with the EU.

But Mrs May said her message to Ms Sturgeon was clear - "now is not the time".

The Prime Minister added: "I think we should be working to get the right deal for Scotland and the UK with our future partnership with the European Union.

"It would be unfair to the people of Scotland that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decision."

The Prime Minister also said the country should be "working together, not pulling apart".

SNP leader and Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

Scottish Conservative Party leader Ruth Davidson says a second Scottish independence referendum should only be held after the UK leaves the EU

Ms Davidson later told a media conference in Edinburgh that the people of Scotland should have the right to see how the UK was working after leaving the EU before deciding whether or not they wanted independence.

  • Scottish independence: Indyref campaign groups gear up again (external - login to view)
  • Indyref2: What is the SNP's approach to EU membership? (external - login to view)

She added: "People should only be asked to make a judgment on whether to leave or remain within a 300-year-old union of nations when they have seen for themselves how that union is functioning following Brexit.

"They should also know what the alternative entails and we have seen no clarity from the SNP on even the basic questions of their proposition."

Scottish Secretary David Mundell said: "The proposal brought forward is not fair, people will not be able to make an informed choice.

"Neither is there public or political support for such a referendum.

"Therefore we will not be entering into discussions or negotiations about a Section 30 agreement and any request at this time will be declined."

Scotland voted by 55% to 45% to remain in the UK in a referendum in September 2014 - but Ms Sturgeon says a second vote is needed to allow the country to choose what path to take following last year's Brexit vote.

MSPs are due to vote next Wednesday on whether to seek a Section 30 order from the UK government, which would be needed to make any referendum legally binding.

The Scottish Parliament currently has a pro-independence majority, with the Scottish Greens pledging to support the minority SNP government in the vote.

A second Scottish referendum

What are the key dates to watch?

2017 Brexit will be triggered in March
2018/19 Sturgeon's preferred vote dates
2019 Two year Brexit deal period ends
2020 Next UK general election
2021 Next Holyrood election


What are the challenges ahead?

By BBC Scotland political editor Brian Taylor

The Tory triumvirate - PM, secretary of state, Scottish leader - stress that a referendum might be feasible once Brexit is signed, sealed and settled. David Mundell seemed particularly keen to stress that point.

However, if they won't contemplate Section 30 meantime, then the time needed for legislation, consultation and official preparation would suggest that - by that calendar - any referendum would be deferred until 2020 or possibly later. Possibly after the next Holyrood elections.

Options for the FM? She could sanction an unofficial referendum, without statutory backing. Don't see that happening. It would be a gesture - and Nicola Sturgeon, as the head of a government, is generally averse to gestures. Unless they advance her cause.

She could protest and seek discussions. Some senior Nationalists believe this to be a negotiation ploy by the PM, the prelude to talks.

Will the first minister proceed with the vote next week at Holyrood, demanding a Section 30 transfer in which the Greens are expected to join with the SNP to create a majority? I firmly expect her to do so, to add to the challenge to the PM.

Read more from Brian (external - login to view)

Scottish independence: Referendum demand 'will be rejected' - BBC News (external - login to view)
Free Thinker
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

[B]Here we go again. The rhetoric of Scottish nationalism is one of the most dreary, repetitive and grindingly predictable sounds in British politics.

It is like the broken record of a dull Caledonian folk song, permanently stuck in its groove as it plays the same old dirge, laden with victimhood and hostility to England...

Wait, what?

More people who don't want to be a part of England?

Colour me surprised.

You guys get to choose if you leave the EU.... now suddenly when Scotland does the same thing to you, there's a problem?

And weren't people saying the same things about how many of your people were moaning on and on about leaving the EU?

Well stick a carrot up me **** and call me Wilbur.... that's just odd.
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Wait, what?

More people who don't want to be a part of England?

Colour me surprised.

You guys get to choose if you leave the EU.... now suddenly when Scotland does the same thing to you, there's a problem?

Scotland did get a vote on whether or not to stay in the UK - in September 2014 it voted to stay in the UK.

That means that Theresa May is honouring the democratic wishes of the Scottish people, whereas Nicola Sturgeon is riding roughshod over the democratic wishes of the Scottish people in wanting to hold a "once in a lifetime" (her own words) referendum again. Theresa May is more in touch with the Scottish people on this issue.

By the way, what Nicola Sturgeon and her plastic nationalists (they aren't true nationalists as they want Scotland in the EU ruled from Brussels) won't tell you is that more Scots voted to remain in the UK in September 2014 than voted to remain in the EU in June 2016.

Coffee House (external - login to view)

How can the Scottish Greens reconcile their manifesto promises with backing Sturgeon?

Fraser Nelson (external - login to view)

(external - login to view)

Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie with a manifesto pledging only to support a new referendum if it was the "clear will" of Scots.

Fraser Nelson (external - login to view)
17 March 2017
The Spectator

It has been barely two years since the last Scottish referendum, with no sign that opinion in Scotland has changed since then. Yet still Nicola Sturgeon hopes to vote to request a new referendum in the Scottish Parliament next week. But here’s the thing: last year, Scots voted to strip the SNP of its Holyrood majority, precisely so they could stop pretending that their agenda is the will of the nation. Thus stymied, Ms Sturgeon would need help in her vote for a new referendum from the six Green MSPs who support secession. But how could they reconcile this with their manifesto pledge (pdf, p19) (external - login to view)?
Scotland can champion a more open and participative law-making process: Citizens as legislators. Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence.
So here, in black and white, is the Greens' pledge to the voters who returned its MSPs to Holyrood: they would only approve a second referendum if it was manifestly the “will of the people” which (then) they rightly distinguish from “party political advantage” of the SNP.

But where is the evidence suggesting that a new referendum is the “will of the people”? Polls show just a third of Scots back it. No one has come up with an opinion poll suggesting a majority want to re-enact the referendum, an even smaller proportion than those who support secession. Which raises a new question: how can the Greens possible justify supporting the SNP in an exercise that is – as they so rightly said in their manifesto – about party political advantage?

Only yesterday, we heard about soaring child poverty figures in Scotland. The school attainment gap between rich and poor is a national disgrace. The SNP’s record is catching up with it. Nicola Sturgeon’s approval rating is so low it’s below that of theScottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson. The SNP need a distraction, hence the new call for a referendum. This makes sense for the SNP. But how does it makes sense for the Greens? Or for Scots? Most of us show no sign of sharing the SNP’s obsession.

Nicola Sturgeon, meanwhile, is heading into the second act of her staged drama: l’Ecosse, c’est moi: “my ideas are the Will of the Scottish People, to defy me is to defy the whole of Scotland” etc. This rather creepy mentality is one of the darker aspects of nationalism. By calling a new referendum the SNP is acting in defiance of the will of the Scottish people. The democratic force supposed to keep the SNP’s messianic impulses in check is the Scottish Parliament – specifically, the Scottish Greens and the contract they made with their voters in a manifesto.

So the question next week is simple: how strongly do the Scottish Greens value democracy? How seriously do they take the pledges made in their manifesto? And how could they explain tearing up their own manifesto pledge, in support of the SNP’s sectarian agenda?

We’ll find out next week. (external - login to view)
No Party Affiliation
Scotland will do quite well once they leave.

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