Scotland might just show the rest of us the way to reset social democracy


tay
#1
Hint - it involves raising taxes.

The Guardian columnist, writing in the Daily Record (external - login to view), says that with a "yes" vote on independence, Scots will have an opportunity to close the poverty gap if they have the will to pay for it.

Of places in the UK where you are likely to die earliest, heading the list are Glasgow (external - login to view), Dundee, Greenock, Hamilton and Clydebank, alongside England’s unhealthiest spots – Manchester, Blackpool and Burnley – and Belfast. Things look even worse when you measure how many good years residents can expect before they fall into ill health with long-term conditions.


Are the people of Scotland genuinely willing to tax themselves towards social democracy?That includes all those company bosses threatening to decamp if corporation tax goes up or any hint of top rates rising.

But it takes not just taxing the rich – real redistribution means middling folk paying more too....It’s admirable that many Scots look north, aspiring to join the Nordics.

Who wouldn’t choose to be more Swedish than Cameron British? But those countries start out fairer than Scotland or the UK, with fewer people paid rock-bottom wages and fewer executives elbow-deep in company treasure chests.


To become as fair as Sweden, Scotland would have to move five points on the Gini coefficient measure of inequality – no small feat.

It would take more benefits for the low paid, sick and unemployed, higher tax on incomes over £100,000 and more council tax. It would need a hike in the minimum wage to a living wage and tough controls on boardroom pay.Would Scotland wear all that? Across the UK, eight out of 10 say the gap between rich and poor is too great (external - login to view) – a high and rising number, spurred by the spectacle of bank bonuses in austere times.


Attitude surveys find Scottish residents are a bit more willing to redistribute by a margin of 43 per cent in favour to 34 per cent against.

But the rest of the UK is only marginally behind, at 41 per cent for redistributing to 30 per cent against – at least in theory but are they willing in practice?


Does Scotland have the will to show the rest of us the way?

With a Yes or a No vote, greater devolved powers will mean freedom to make significant difference. Let’s hope that means more than a shoddy corporation tax race to the bottom.
 
MHz
#2
Did that happen when Iceland broke away, I thought tossing out all the 'bad debt' made the taxes collected go to where they were supposed to go without it being a further burden on the people. The shunning thy the world didn't help their recover and it only slowed it down it didn't prevent it from happening.
 
tay
#3
With just 15 days to go before the Scottish referendum, a new poll has confirmed the trend that I wrote about yesterday. The YES side is surging, and Scotland could be soon heading for independence. (link is external) (external - login to view)The poll by YouGov showed the unionist lead had shrunk to 6 percentage points from 22 a month ago as support for independence jumped to 47 percent in August, suggesting a major shift in opinion ahead of the September 18 referendum.
And although some may be surprised, I'm not. And neither is the English writer George Monbiot, who says voting NO would be an "astonishing act of self-harm."




Independence, as more Scots are beginning to see, offers people an opportunity to rewrite the political rules. To create a written constitution, the very process of which is engaging and transformative. To build an economy of benefit to everyone. To promote cohesion, social justice, the defence of the living planet and an end to wars of choice.





more




Scots voting no to independence would be an astonishing act of self-harm | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian (external - login to view)






wwwyoutubecomwatchvPTRzvmxsci0

 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
+1
#4
How about cutting waste instead of always raising taxes? Is that too simple?
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#5
A the thought of independence is just a great feeling. At last goodbye to the blaggards
It goes back to the Campbell;s and the MacDonald's and at last the highlanders may
have a say.
 
tay
#6
 
Blackleaf
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by tayView Post

With just 15 days to go before the Scottish referendum, a new poll has confirmed the trend that I wrote about yesterday. The YES side is surging, and Scotland could be soon heading for independence. (link is external)The poll by YouGov showed the unionist lead had shrunk to 6 percentage points from 22 a month ago as support for independence jumped to 47 percent in August, suggesting a major shift in opinion ahead of the September 18 referendum.
And although some may be surprised, I'm not. And neither is the English writer George Monbiot, who says voting NO would be an "astonishing act of self-harm."
Independence, as more Scots are beginning to see, offers people an opportunity to rewrite the political rules. To create a written constitution, the very process of which is engaging and transformative. To build an economy of benefit to everyone.
To promote cohesion, social justice, the defence of the...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post



A racist, anti-English article of the type you'd expect of the left-wing Bible The Graun and the smug, patronising Islington Lefty George Monbiot. Who on Earth does he think he is writing a bigoted, anti-English article like that in an English newpsaper? The Graun is still puzzled as to why it has a low and declining readership and why its arch-enemy, The Daily Mail, is booming. Well, look no further Graun: anti-English articles like that do not exactly persuade English newspaper readers to go out en masse to by your crappy newspaper. Cut out the bigotry and the racism, directed towards the very people you want to go out and buy your newspaper, and your paper may halt its decline into oblivion.

Still, just days after Monbiot wrote that disgusting article, he was left writhing and squirming and lost for words by the Ukip MEP for North West England Louise Bours, who wiped the floor with him on Daily Politics. She was absolutely brilliant.






Quote: Originally Posted by tayView Post

It leads - but only in one poll and with the undecideds not included.

Here's the result of the Panelbase poll conducted between 2nd September and 6th September 2014:

Yes to independence: 44%
No to independence: 48%
Undecided: 8%

No to independence lead: 4%

According to the Panelbase poll the Scots are to reject independence on Thursday 18th September, flying in the face of the YouGove poll which shows the Scots will vote for independence. So who are we to believe? This poll, or the poll which shows the YES side ahead?

It will be tight on September 18th but Scotland's silent majority of NO people, who have been scared to air their opinions, especially in more recent days, because of the intimidation they receive from the thuggish YES camp, will finally make their voices fully heard on September 18th.

Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll (external - login to view)



One mistake that Mr Cameron made was not putting the option for "Devo Max" on the Scottish independence referendum voting forms.

A study has shown that a lot of those Scots who are planning to vote for independence would reject independence if they had the option for Scotland to remain in the UK but with Devo Max, and it's thought that had Mr Cameron allowed a "Devo Max" option in the upcoming referendum rather than just simple "YES" or "NO" to independence options then around 60% of Scots, it is thought, would opt for the DEVO MAX option in the referendum.

Now, with just 11 days to go until the referendum, and one poll showing the YES side in the lead (although another poll still shows the NO side leading), the Better Together camp are now proposing to give Scotland sweeping new powers on tax and welfare should the NO side prevail, in the hope that will finally persuade the Scots to vote NO.

Speaking on the BBC’s Marr show this morning, Mr Osborne said the new package of measures would allow voters to have the ‘best of both worlds’.


He said: ‘It’s clear that Scotland wants more control over the decisions that affect Scotland.


‘You will see in the next few days a plan of action to give more powers to Scotland: more tax powers more spending powers, more plans and powers over the welfare state.


‘And that will be put into effect. The moment there is a no vote in the referendum the clock will be ticking for delivering those powers and then Scotland will have the best of both worlds – they will both avoid the risks of separation but have more control over their own destiny, which is where I think many Scots want to be.’


Mr Osborne's announcement that new powers will be handed to Scotland if it rejects independence mirrors a similar last-ditch offer made by the Canadian government in 1995 when Quebec appeared to be on the verge of voting for independence.


Read more: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to save the UK as Yes camp takes the lead, sparking Miliband warning over manned border posts | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (external - login to view) | DailyMail on Facebook (external - login to view)
**************************************



If Scotland votes for independence in 11 days' time, that would mean that, for the first time in over 300 years, Northern England would border a foreign state.


And that, according to Labour Party leader Ed Miliband, would mean Britain putting guards on the new international border.


The SNP dismissed the idea of border controls as a ‘scare story’, but Mr Miliband’s advisers say it is not an idle threat: a secret memo drawn up by the Foreign Office in 2009 warned that a secure border would have to be established to protect the ‘remaining UK’ if an independent Scotland applied to join the EU.

All new EU members are obliged to accept the Schengen open borders scheme, meaning travellers from the continent would be free to fly into Scotland without immigration checks.

But Britain has opted out of the scheme, and erects border controls to vet travellers from Schengen countries, raising the prospect of a new Hadrian’s Wall between the two nations.

New border posts would cause chaos for travellers and prove to be hugely damaging to business in Scotland.

A total of 23 million vehicle crossings a year are made on the roads, in addition to seven million passenger journeys on the West Coast and East Coast railway lines.


If controls were set up, immigration staff could man barriers on the roads while the train terminals would have to install checks similar to those adopted by Eurostar.


Last night former Labour Home Secretary David Blunkett echoed Mr Miliband’s warning by referring to last week’s riots in Calais when immigrants attempted to storm a ferry.


‘Were the Scots to vote “Yes” to separation, the issue of border controls and the threat of entry through Scottish ports and airports would take on serious proportions,’ Mr Blunkett told The Mail on Sunday.


‘This is one issue that has not yet emerged as a key part of the debate over Scotland’s future. There is much at stake and little sign of Government action in response.’



We'll put guards on Scottish border: Ed Miliband reveals incendiary plan as Yes camp leads for first time in shock new poll

Labour leader revealed passport checks 'would have to be looked at'
His spokesman: 'It would be up to us to secure our northern border'
Comes as shock poll puts Yes camp ahead on 51% to No camp's 49%
Revelation comes just 11 days before history-making referendum


By Glen Owen for The Mail on Sunday (external - login to view)
7 September 2014
Daily Mail

Ed Miliband today issues the stark threat that manned border posts could be introduced if Scotland backs independence in next week's historic vote.

With just 11 days to go until the referendum - and polls showing growing momentum for Alex Salmond's nationalists - the Labour leader has urged voters to face up to the consequences of severing the 300-year-old Union.

'If you don't want borders, vote to stay in the United Kingdom,' Mr Miliband said in an interview with today's Scottish Mail on Sunday.


Passport please: Our artists' impression of a road border between England and Scotland post-independence

Asked whether that would mean him introducing border guards and passport checks if he was Prime Minister, Mr Miliband warned: 'It would have to be looked at.'

And Mr Miliband's spokesman added last night: 'The last time I looked there were two sides to the border - and we would be in charge of one of them. It would be up to us, not Mr Salmond, to secure our northern border.'

The prospect was raised as a shock poll showed that 51 per cent of Scots would vote ‘Yes’ to going it alone with just 49 per cent saying ‘No’.

The results of the YouGov survey means that the ‘Yes’ campaign has overturned a 22-point lead within a month.

Until now, Mr Salmond’s SNP has insisted that a separate Scotland would be part of a common, free movement area with the rest of the UK and Ireland.


Guards on the border: Where the controls could be placed if Scotland wins independence in 11 days' time

But a Downing Street source backed Mr Miliband, saying: ‘All the research shows that if there is a material difference between the immigration policy adopted by an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK, then border controls would have to be introduced.’

It raises the extraordinary prospect of drivers having to stop at manned barriers on the borders to show their passports.

With the latest opinion polls showing Mr Miliband on course to win May’s General Election, a Labour Government could be in charge of negotiating Scotland’s passage to independence by March 2016 if the referendum returns a ‘Yes’ vote.

The SNP dismissed the idea of border controls as a ‘scare story’, but Mr Miliband’s advisers say it is not an idle threat: a secret memo drawn up by the Foreign Office in 2009 warned that a secure border would have to be established to protect the ‘remaining UK’ if an independent Scotland applied to join the EU.

All new EU members are obliged to accept the Schengen open borders scheme, meaning travellers from the continent would be free to fly into Scotland without immigration checks.

But Britain has opted out of the scheme, and erects border controls to vet travellers from Schengen countries, raising the prospect of a new Hadrian’s Wall between the two nations.

New border posts would cause chaos for travellers and prove to be hugely damaging to business.

The 95-mile border, which runs from Lamberton on the east coast to the Solway Firth in the west, cuts through 21 roads, including two major trunk routes, the A1 and M74.


Read more: We'll put guards on Scottish border: Ed Miliband reveals incendiary plan as Yes camp leads for first time in shock new poll* | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (external - login to view) | DailyMail on Facebook (external - login to view)






More on the foul-mouthed abuse that those who speak out against Scottish independence receive from Scottish nationalist thungs and cybernats:



'I don't feel safe in Scotland': Bra Queen Michelle Mone bombarded with abuse after speaking out against independence

Lingerie tycoon was one of few business leaders to come out pro-Union
'I've been called a cow, a **** and told "we'll come and get you",' she said
Ultimo founder was born in Glasgow and is still based in Scottish city
By Patricia Kane For The Mail On Sunday (external - login to view)
7 September 2014
Daily Mail



Lingerie tycoon Michelle Mone has been bombarded with so many abusive threats since she spoke out against independence that she no longer feels safe in Scotland.

The Glasgow-born and based Ultimo founder was subjected to a vitriolic social media hate campaign after becoming one of only a few business leaders to come out in favour of the Union.

Speaking for the first time about the online abuse, she said: ‘It’s a very sad day when you can’t voice an opinion without getting threats.



Pro-Union: Michelle Mone was one of the few Scottish business leaders to speak out against independence


‘Yet, for the first time, I don’t feel safe in Scotland and that’s horrible. It’s my home.’

Ms Mone, 42, took to Twitter to express her fears about an independent Scotland’s £6 billion deficit and the risk of losing the pound. And she vowed to move to England if Scotland voted Yes in the referendum on September 18.

After receiving a stream of abuse in response, the mother of three added: ‘Can’t believe the amount of hatred this vote is causing. It’s extremely sad & will no doubt cause damage either way to the country I love.’


One troll wrote: ‘The quicker we vote yes, the quicker u get to f*** ya tramp!’

In June, vicious Twitter trolls targeted Harry Potter author J. K. Rowling, who has lived in Scotland for 21 years, after she revealed she had made a £1 million donation to the No campaign.





Attacked: Ms Mone (left) suffered the same fate as JK Rowling (right), who pledged £1m to the No campaign




Influence: Ms Mone with Labour leader Ed Miliband last month at the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow


Last night, Ms Mone revealed she had been subjected to similar comments. She said: ‘I have absolutely no problem with people expressing an opinion, but if you are going to be disrespectful, I don’t want to hear it.
'I’ve been called a “****”, a “cow”, a “****”, as well as being told “I’m going to get it”, “we’ll come and get you” and they’re “going to throw me across the border”.

‘I’m not a murderer, a thief or a rapist. I’m a good person who employs a lot of people in Scotland, both Yes and No supporters, and we all get on.

‘We should all be able to live in a country where you can express views and not be vilified for it.’
But Ms Mone says her commercial experience tells her that ‘Alex Salmond’s business plan is flawed’.


Read more: 'I don't feel safe in Scotland': Bra Queen Michelle Mone bombarded with abuse after speaking out against independence | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (external - login to view) | DailyMail on Facebook (external - login to view)
Last edited by Blackleaf; 3 weeks ago at 07:31 AM..
 
MHz
+1
#8
There ya go, what better proof do you need that Scotland is better off without England. At least mother and son could share the same blankee without blushing (maybe a little) , these two can't even go that far. lol
Why doesn't the Queen run over his pile of x-box games and see how he reacts, just to show us commoners how it should be handled?
 
Blackleaf
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

There ya go, what better proof do you need that Scotland is better off without England?

Is there proof that Scotland would be better off without England (and Wales and Northern Ireland)? Can YOU prove it?

As it was pointed out again last week during the latest televised independence debate: if you take away the dwindling receipts from oil money, Scotland actually puts less into the Treasury than it takes out. It is a net receiver of money.

If Scotland is oh-so-rich and able to stand on its own two feet, why does it receive, in the Barnett Formula, more public spending per head of population than every other part of the UK, more even than Wales, which is poorer than Scotland, and more than the poorer regions of England, such as the North West and the North East? There must be some reason why Scotland receives all this public money, more even that other parts of the UK which are poorer than it. But in the unlikely event of Scotland becoming independent, the Scots can wave goodbye to the Barnett Formula (the English won't be too pleased if their hard-earned taxes are still being ploughed into Scotland if Scotland becomes a foreign country).

England, however, will benefit greatly if Scotland secedes.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

How about cutting waste instead of always raising taxes? Is that too simple?

An independent Scotland would be forced to increase taxes or cut public spending to meet repayments on its large national debt, according to an in-depth analysis warning referendum voters to be “wary” of SNP promises.

The Scotland Institute, a think tank, estimated that Scottish voters would have to reimburse the remainder of the UK to the tune of at least £153 billion – the equivalent of 86 per cent of GDP.

Although this is a lower proportion of GDP than the UK’s national debt, the institute warned the cost of servicing it would be more expensive as a separate Scotland would have a lower credit rating and would therefore incur higher borrowing costs.

The cost would increase even further if the three main UK parties refuse to change their minds on ruling out a currency union with a separate Scotland, its 67-page report said.

The institute dismissed Alex Salmond’s threat that he would refuse to accept a share of the UK’s national debt if no deal to share the pound was reached, saying this would result in Scotland being shunned by the international community and business investors.

Instead it warned that an independent Scotland would likely have to accept a greater share of the UK’s national debt than it would have liked as it would have a “weaker” position in divorce negotiations with Westminster.

The analysis severely undermined claims earlier this month by John Swinney, the Scottish Finance Minister, that he would abandon austerity in the early years of independence by borrowing billions of pounds extra.

Among the experts who contributed to the Scotland Institute report were representatives of the three main credit rating agencies and Lord O’Donnell, the former head of the British civil service.

Unveiling the document, Dr Azeem Ibrahim, the think tank’s executive chairman, said: "A future Scottish Government's options on spending are likely to end up being more limited than they are even now, and Scottish voters should be wary of SNP promises on certain issues such as greater public spending in the future."

The study concluded: “Any future independent Scottish government would need to further consolidate its fiscal position, meaning either an increase in taxes, a reduction in government spending or a combination of these two measures.”

Independent Scotland's debt 'would force spending cuts or tax rises' - Telegraph (external - login to view)


Lots of Scots don't seem to realise the dire consequences their nation will face should it become independent. It's time they woke up.

Salmond and the SNP are continuously telling the Scots how they will SPEND money, on things such as the welfare state and the NHS, but they don't tell Scots how they will RAISE the money.

The socialist, subsidy-junky Scots in their land of low entreprenuership and welfare dependency are of the impression than an independent Scotland would be some sort of Socialist utopia, with low taxes, a generous welfare state which continues to lavishly fund the workshy; that they will suddenly live in a land of milk and honey, with low crime, no Tories, a better functioning NHS etc etc etc. But the Scots will be in for a rude awakening if they vote for independence and will start to quickly regret doing so, and we'll be saying: "We told you so. We warned you."
Last edited by Blackleaf; 3 weeks ago at 09:55 AM..
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#10
Scots playing their brand of field hockey called camanachd or shinty:







here is a match reported in Highlander:







I've watched a few games over the years but have yet to see it reported in Doric. Well, mebbe some day ...




When they gain their freedom the sport will become even more popular as Scots will enjoy even more cultural pride.
 
MHz
#11
Quebec should have held their referendum in the rest of Canada, would have been a done deal by now.
Scotland isn't a blight on England's ***. Can't say that about England because she believes she should still be running things the same way she did in 1000AD, 'only sneakier'.

Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Scots playing their brand of field hockey

I think this has more to do with Glasgow's support for Gaza than a sports game. Golf and curling should be their National sports.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#12
Shinty is a lot more physical and more fun. Think of it as ice hockey on a field. That should make it the national sport.
 
Blackleaf
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

When they gain their freedom

My mother told me earlier on today that she doesn't believe the Scots will vote for independence - and she's Scottish.

Quote:

even more popular as Scots will enjoy even more cultural pride.

How would that be the case?

By the way, football rules in Scotland. You'll be hard-pressed to convert the football-mad Scots into becoming shinty-mad.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

My mother told me earlier on today that she doesn't believe the Scots will vote for independence - and she's Scottish.



I understand George Galloway also opposes independence so it might be a lost cause (for now) after all.

Mebbe next year (?).
 
Blackleaf
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

I understand George Galloway also opposes independence so it might be a lost cause (for now) after all.

My Scottish mother believes most Scots oppose it and that they'll show that in the referendum.

The anti-independence silent majority of Scots - those who are too afraid to speak out against independence due to the fact they'll probably be accused of being rapists and paedophiles by the Cybernat bullies - will let their voices be heard anonymously in the polling booth on September 18th and Scotland will reject independence.

Poll Analysis

John Curtice, professor of politics at Strathclyde University and an expert in electoral poll behaviour

7 September 2014
BBC News


The Scottish referendum campaign is on a knife edge

At first glance today's two referendum polls tell much the same story. One, YouGov, says that the Yes (pro-independence) side is narrowly ahead, while the other, Panelbase, says it is only just behind. Both polls are thus effectively saying that the referendum now looks too close to call.

But look a little closer and we see a remarkable difference between the two polls. Four weeks ago, YouGov were reporting the No side were 22 points ahead. But since then three polls in succession have identified a continuing trend to Yes that cumulatively amounts to no less a 12 point swing.

In contrast, Panelbase, always hitherto the most optimistic pollster for the Yes side, first put Yes on 48% as long ago as June. It did the same just three weeks ago. In other words its poll has failed to detect any recent swing to the Yes side at all.

Given this contrast, until another pollster confirms that there has indeed been a substantial swing to Yes there will inevitably be some doubt about just how much the progress the Yes side has made.

That said, a majority of pollsters have said in their most recent poll that the Yes vote is now at least as high as it has been at any point during the campaign. The race certainly now looks tight - we are just as yet still not sure quite how tight.




BBC News - Scottish independence: Vote 'will go to the wire' (external - login to view)
 
gore0bsessed
#16
Scottish referendum: Shock new poll says Scots set to vote for independence



Scottish referendum: Shock new poll says Scots set to vote for independence | Politics | The Observer (external - login to view)
 
Blackleaf
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by gore0bsessedView Post

Scottish referendum: Shock new poll says Scots set to vote for independence



Scottish referendum: Shock new poll says Scots set to vote for independence | Politics | The Observer (external - login to view)


Already been discussed on this very thread. See above.
 
Blackleaf
#18
Scots, What the Heck?

SEPT. 7, 2014
The New York Times



Paul Krugman (external - login to view)


Next week Scotland will hold a referendum on whether to leave the United Kingdom. And polling suggests that support for independence has surged over the past few months, largely because pro-independence campaigners have managed to reduce the “fear factor” — that is, concern about the economic risks of going it alone. At this point the outcome looks like a tossup.

Well, I have a message for the Scots: Be afraid, be very afraid. The risks of going it alone are huge. You may think that Scotland can become another Canada, but it’s all too likely that it would end up becoming Spain without the sunshine.

Comparing Scotland with Canada seems, at first, pretty reasonable. After all, Canada, like Scotland, is a relatively small economy that does most of its trade with a much larger neighbor. Also like Scotland, it is politically to the left of that giant neighbor. And what the Canadian example shows is that this can work. Canada is prosperous, economically stable (although I worry about high household debt (external - login to view) and what looks like a major housing bubble) and has successfully pursued policies well to the left of those south of the border: single-payer health insurance, more generous aid to the poor, higher overall taxation.

Does Canada pay any price for independence? Probably. Labor productivity (external - login to view) is only about three-quarters as high as it is in the United States, and some of the gap may reflect the small size of the Canadian market (yes, we have a free-trade agreement, but a lot of evidence shows that borders discourage trade all the same). Still, you can argue that Canada is doing O.K.

But Canada has its own currency, which means that its government can’t run out of money, that it can bail out its own banks if necessary, and more. An independent Scotland wouldn’t. And that makes a huge difference.

Could Scotland have its own currency? Maybe, although Scotland’s economy is even more tightly integrated with that of the rest of Britain than Canada’s is with the United States, so that trying to maintain a separate currency would be hard. It’s a moot point, however: The Scottish independence movement has been very clear that it intends to keep the pound as the national currency. And the combination of political independence with a shared currency is a recipe for disaster. Which is where the cautionary tale of Spain comes in.

If Spain and the other countries that gave up their own currencies to adopt the euro were part of a true federal system, with shared institutions of government, the recent economic history of Spain would have looked a lot like that of Florida (external - login to view). Both economies experienced a huge housing boom between 2000 and 2007. Both saw that boom turn into a spectacular bust. Both suffered a sharp downturn as a result of that bust. In both places the slump meant a plunge in tax receipts and a surge in spending on unemployment benefits and other forms of aid.

Then, however, the paths diverged. In Florida’s case, most of the fiscal burden of the slump fell not on the local government but on Washington, which continued to pay for the state’s Social Security and Medicare benefits, as well as for much of the increased aid to the unemployed. There were large losses on housing loans, and many Florida banks failed (external - login to view), but many of the losses fell on federal lending agencies, while bank depositors were protected by federal insurance. You get the picture. In effect, Florida received large-scale aid in its time of distress.

Spain, by contrast, bore all the costs of the housing bust on its own. The result was a fiscal crisis, made much worse by fears of a banking crisis that the Spanish government would be unable to manage, because it might literally run out of cash (external - login to view). Spanish borrowing costs soared, and the government was forced into brutal austerity (external - login to view) measures. The result was a horrific depression — including youth unemployment above 50 percent (external - login to view) — from which Spain has barely begun to recover.

And it wasn’t just Spain, it was all of southern Europe and more. Even euro-area countries with sound finances, like Finland and the Netherlands, have suffered deep and prolonged slumps.

In short, everything that has happened in Europe since 2009 or so has demonstrated that sharing a currency without sharing a government is very dangerous. In economics jargon, fiscal and banking integration are essential elements of an optimum currency area. And an independent Scotland using Britain’s pound would be in even worse shape than euro countries, which at least have some say in how the European Central Bank is run.

I find it mind-boggling that Scotland would consider going down this path after all that has happened in the last few years. If Scottish voters really believe that it’s safe to become a country without a currency, they have been badly misled.

www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/op...heck.html?_r=2 (external - login to view)


Scottish Independence Poll of Polls (7th September 2014)

YES: 47%
NO: 53%

(Compiled from the last 12 polls by Professor John Curtice, expert in electoral behaviour)
Last edited by Blackleaf; 3 weeks ago at 07:30 AM..
 
Kreskin
+1
#19
47%. I don't think it will happen. Some of that 47 will have cold feet in the voting booth.

I will predict 43% yes 57% no.
 
petros
#20
They've got a lot of oil and gas. They could do it easily.
 
EagleSmack
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

47%. I don't think it will happen. Some of that 47 will have cold feet in the voting booth.

I will predict 43% yes 57% no.

That sounds about right. Cold Feet in voting booth... solid prediction.

It would be fun to see BL take a k-nip-****e but I think the Scots will stay.

The Brits are begging (as usual) and dealing so that may just be enough.
 
petros
+1
#22
Begging to keep royalties on north sea oil and gas. It would be a horrendous blow to Brit economy.
 
EagleSmack
#23
Don't let me be last Queen of Scotland: Monarch in talks with PM over UK break-up - Mirror Online (external - login to view)

lol

 
petros
+1
#24
Republic of Scotland has a nice ring to it.
 
EagleSmack
+2
#25
It does and boy could we have fun in here the day after.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
+2
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

It does and boy could we have fun in here the day after.

Watching Blackie's head explode would be worth it.
 
petros
#27
Vaccums implode. I have graph to prove it.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Vaccums implode. I have graph to prove it.

Not more graphs. We don't want to get Flossy all worked up as well.
 
petros
#29
Another vaccum.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#30
I do hope they vote YES to independence get those Royals off the throan
and put the Stewart's back on the throne. We need an independent
Scotland to end the occupation by the English. It will be close but hopefully
enough Mac Donald's will remember and vote yes.
 

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