How responsible is the West for Ukraine conflict?

[Machjo]

Is it just me or have we all forgotten that prior to the surprise Russian invasion of Crimea, Western politicians were going to Ukraine to show support for protesters trying violently to overthrow the legitimate government of the country?

Did the ukraine government use excessive force against the protesters? Maybe, it's debatable. But then again, one of the jobs of a governemtn is to maintain law and order and especially to defend itself against overthrow. If main government buildings were taken over by protesters in Ottawa, I can pretty well guarantee that rubber bullets and tear gas would quickly be replaced by martial law, military presence, and authority to use whatever force is necessary to re-establish national stability.

Just to clarify, russia was wrong in invading Crimea: I'm not defending its actions there. However, is it not fair to say that our politicians too share some of the blame for this for having provoked Russia to such an extreme measure. No, Russia was still rwrong, but would likely not have done so had Western politicians not gone to Ukraine to chear on what was essentially heading towards civil war.

Your thoughts on this? To what degree is the West responsible for the Ukraine crisis?

And now that I think of it for our fellow US forumites here, I'm sure that if main governemnt buildings were taken over by protesters in the US, it too would not hesitate to declare martial law as Ukraine had done.

 

[darkbeaver]

Is it just me or have we all forgotten that prior to the surprise Russian invasion of Crimea, Western politicians were going to Ukraine to show support for protesters trying violently to overthrow the legitimate government of the country?

Did the ukraine government use excessive force against the protesters? Maybe, it's debatable. But then again, one of the jobs of a governemtn is to maintain law and order and especially to defend itself against overthrow. If main government buildings were taken over by protesters in Ottawa, I can pretty well guarantee that rubber bullets and tear gas would quickly be replaced by martial law, military presence, and authority to use whatever force is necessary to re-establish national stability.

Just to clarify, russia was wrong in invading Crimea: I'm not defending its actions there. However, is it not fair to say that our politicians too share some of the blame for this for having provoked Russia to such an extreme measure. No, Russia was still rwrong, but would likely not have done so had Western politicians not gone to Ukraine to chear on what was essentially heading towards civil war.

Your thoughts on this? To what degree is the West responsible for the Ukraine crisis?

And now that I think of it for our fellow US forumites here, I'm sure that if main governemnt buildings were taken over by protesters in the US, it too would not hesitate to declare martial law as Ukraine had done.

But if lobbyists did the taking over would you or anyone else notice, and would the surface pacific nature of the infectious displacement of the citizen politician with the corporate rapist register on the civil body if it were slow and inconspicuous. A plodding coup of costumned protesters has already long ago captured the Canadian parliament and not a shot was fired.

 

[petros]

Finance is what provoked Russia. They are flat broke.

 

[darkbeaver]

I would say yes western finance is provoking Russia.

 

[petros]

Nothing like a dead economy to spur on a war eh? Did the West kill their economy? Do banks create 3 year droughts?

 

[darkbeaver]

Nothing like a dead economy to spur on a war eh? Did the West kill their economy? Do banks create 3 year droughts?

Where does finance live? Would the worlds finance leave a beautiful crisis to solve itself? BRICS has entered the game and I suggest that it is the ultimate target. A fundamentally dangerous infant like this must be smothered in the cradle or all is lost for the Zionist Empire.

 

[Machjo]

Let's just hope this is a lesson for Western politicians thinking of joining revolutions abroad. It could provoke blowback, as was the case in the Crimea incident.

Oh, and Darkbeaver. Would you mind speaking in plain English? I don't understand what in the world you're talking about half the time.

 

[darkbeaver]

Let's just hope this is a lesson for Western politicians thinking of joining revolutions abroad. It could provoke blowback, as was the case in the Crimea incident.

Oh, and Darkbeaver. Would you mind speaking in plain English? I don't understand what in the world you're talking about half the time.

The coup in Ukraine is western backed to the hilt. The west must have war with the eastern alliance and BRICS must go away or the west shrivels up like dog poop on a hot day. Already Germany heads for the door. Fomenting crisis is the western way.

Activist Post: MH17 Show and Tell: It's the West's TurnMH17 Show and Tell: It's the West's Turn
Tony Cartalucci
Activist Post

Russia has now shown its satellite pictures and radar information from the Donetsk, Ukraine region during the July 17, 2014 Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash.

The Wall Street Journal reported in its article, "Russia Presents Its Account of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash," that:
Russia's Defense Ministry on Monday presented its first detailed account of the final moments of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, saying Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the vicinity shortly before the crash and that satellite imagery showed Ukraine had moved missile systems into the area before the incident.
At a news conference, air force chief Igor Makushev didn't say who the ministry thought had fired the missile that apparently brought down the airliner on Thursday.

 

[Zipperfish]

The coup in Ukraine is western backed to the hilt. The west must have war with the eastern alliance and BRICS must go away or the west shrivels up like dog poop on a hot day. Already Germany heads for the door. Fomenting crisis is the western way.

Activist Post: MH17 Show and Tell: It's the West's TurnMH17 Show and Tell: It's the West's Turn
Tony Cartalucci
Activist Post

Russia has now shown its satellite pictures and radar information from the Donetsk, Ukraine region during the July 17, 2014 Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash.

The Wall Street Journal reported in its article, "Russia Presents Its Account of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash," that:
Russia's Defense Ministry on Monday presented its first detailed account of the final moments of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, saying Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the vicinity shortly before the crash and that satellite imagery showed Ukraine had moved missile systems into the area before the incident.
At a news conference, air force chief Igor Makushev didn't say who the ministry thought had fired the missile that apparently brought down the airliner on Thursday.

Yes RT is pushing the idea that the plane was brought down by a missile from a Ukrainian plane. Only problem is that the tweet issued by the rebels boasted about bringing down a plane right after the Malaysian airliner was hit. Another problem is that rebels prevented international access to the site early on, whereas the Ukrainian government has offered full assistance from the get-go.

Russia's media line doesn't add up.

As for the West's culpability for the situation in the Ukraine--well it's an interesting intellectual exercise. Like all events in history when you trace the threads back, the situation becomes more and more complex and interwoven. I'm not going to defend the IMF. There primary task seems to be transferring wealth to the rich. But that said, Russia physically invaded the Ukraine.

 

[petros]

RT isn't a reliable outlet. It's a state run propaganda machine.

 

[darkbeaver]

Official Russian Military Presentation of evidence that Russia nor the pro-Russian freedom fighters downed the Boeing 777

Yes RT is pushing the idea that the plane was brought down by a missile from a Ukrainian plane. Only problem is that the tweet issued by the rebels boasted about bringing down a plane right after the Malaysian airliner was hit. Another problem is that rebels prevented international access to the site early on, whereas the Ukrainian government has offered full assistance from the get-go.

Russia's media line doesn't add up.

As for the West's culpability for the situation in the Ukraine--well it's an interesting intellectual exercise. Like all events in history when you trace the threads back, the situation becomes more and more complex and interwoven. I'm not going to defend the IMF. There primary task seems to be transferring wealth to the rich. But that said, Russia physically invaded the Ukraine.

The tweet was proved to be a composite.

 

[The Old Medic]

The West is NOT responsible, in any manner, for the conflict in Ukraine. Only a Putin supporter would even RAISE such drivel!

 

[Zipperfish]

Official Russian Military Presentation of evidence that Russia nor the pro-Russian freedom fighters downed the Boeing 777



The tweet was proved to be a composite.

There were several posts by separatist leaders. They were quite explicit. And they were summarily pulled. The Russian "presentation of evidence" does not address these.

I'll wait for the results of the investigation for a definitive conclusion, but right now the circumstantial evidence indicates to me that this was a blunder by pro-Russian separatists.

 

[darkbeaver]

There were several posts by separatist leaders. They were quite explicit. And they were summarily pulled. The Russian "presentation of evidence" does not address these.

I'll wait for the results of the investigation for a definitive conclusion, but right now the circumstantial evidence indicates to me that this was a blunder by pro-Russian separatists.

Pearl Harbour hasn't been definitively explained yet. I think the backlog in suspicious incident investigation will entail a great long wait.

Holly-Wood will explain it all to us.

 

[Zipperfish]

Pearl Harbour hasn't been definitively explained yet. I think the backlog in suspicious incident investigation will entail a great long wait.

Holly-Wood will explain it all to us.

If the US intelligence reports are independently verified or cooroborated, then I'll have enough to draw my conclusion.

 

[gopher]

The West is NOT responsible, in any manner, for the conflict in Ukraine. Only a Putin supporter would even RAISE such drivel!

Conflicts have been going on in Ukraine since the days of the Tartar invasions in the 13th century. The only thing that really made it appear to be dormant was the Soviet dominance. It had been smoldering for a while and the dissolution of the Evil Empire was the spark that reignited it. The West cannot truly be said to have caused something that existed for the past 8 centuries. Therefore, the only solution to it can be only found at home among the competing parties without external influences.

 

[Corduroy]

And what was Ukraine wearing at the time? That ****.

 

[MHz]

Is it just me or have we all forgotten that prior to the surprise Russian invasion of Crimea, . . . .

There was no Russian 'invasion' of Crimea. Crimea refused to accept a government that gained power in a coup and they voted to separate from the Ukraine. Rather than form their own country and military they asked Russia if they could become part of Russia to which Russia said yes and the big green men came in and nobody locally or internationally tried to remove them fo Crimea wasn't worth fight for back then but now suddenly those events are now important.

That is as good as place as any when trying to untangle things.

The West cannot truly be said to have caused something that existed for the past 8 centuries. Therefore, the only solution to it can be only found at home among the competing parties without external influences.

Pumping in $5B in the last few years has more importance in history than the previous 500 years combined. That is how the West has been involved lately, no wonder you skipped mentioning it.

 

[gopher]

MHZ,


Pumping in $5B in the last few years has more importance in history than the previous 500 years combined. That is how the West has been involved lately, no wonder you skipped mentioning it.

So you are saying (as do others) that it was Bush who orchestrated the Orange Revolution starting in 2004 ?

Had I written that Eagle would have accused me of playing the BROKEN RECORD card.

 

[darkbeaver]

Conflicts have been going on in Ukraine since the days of the Tartar invasions in the 13th century. The only thing that really made it appear to be dormant was the Soviet dominance. It had been smoldering for a while and the dissolution of the Evil Empire was the spark that reignited it. The West cannot truly be said to have caused something that existed for the past 8 centuries. Therefore, the only solution to it can be only found at home among the competing parties without external influences.

i AGREE.