Ukraine

igor6691
#1
Maidan Community Sector, Lviv: Dear friends!

International Renaissance Foundation, Kyiv: Dear colleagues!

It has been three months since the confrontation of the President Viktor Yanukovych with the people of Ukraine began. Yesterday the conflict took on a threatening form. Current situation may result in a civil war. Thus we take it upon ourselves to inform you about the events in Ukraine. We will provide you with yet another viewpoint regarding this conflict. We will do our best to remain fair and objective.

March 3 Putin's four demands made during his conversation with Merkel (in brief):

1. The government in Kyiv must sign an agreement to refrain from any ties with NATO.

2. Neither the US, NATO, or any other state will deploy X-Band or BX-1 radar stations on Ukrainian territory, whether on land, sea, or air.

3. There will be restrictions on the types of weapons the Ukrainian armed forces can use.

4. Local military units will be formed to protect the Russian-speaking population and ethnic Russian regions of Ukraine.

Putin emphasized in his conversation with Merkel that until these four conditions were met Russian forces would remain in place in Crimea, and if deemed necessary they would advance into other parts of Ukraine.

March 3 The White House published the G7's statement on Russian troops' invasion of Ukraine: "We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation's clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine... We note that Russia's actions in Ukraine also contravene the principles and values on which the G-7 and the G-8 operate. As such, we have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G-8 Summit in Sochi in JuneWe are united in supporting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, and its right to choose its own future. We commit ourselves to support Ukraine in its efforts to restore unity, stability, and political and economic health to the country...

March 3 Russia called an emergency session of the UN Security Council regarding the situation in Ukraine on March 3. All UN Security Council members condemned Russia for its aggression in Crimea.

March 3 Ex-president Viktor Yanukovych, who is evading prosecution from Ukrainian law enforcement in Russia, asked RF president Vladimir Putin to use troops to "restore law and order" in Ukraine.

March 3 the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry published a list of conditions from its bilateral agreements with Russia, which the latter violated by intervening militarily in Crimea. The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry accuses the RF of violating the framework agreements on the Black Sea Fleet.

March 3 The Ukrainian State Border Service is reporting a build-up of Russian military equipment on the state border along Kharkov, Lugansk, and Donetsk Oblasts. These actions may be a sign of Russian preparations for a mass invasion of Ukraine.

March 3 The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry believes it is possible that Russia may soon begin a land invasion of Ukrainian territory across the Ukrainian-Russian border.

March 3 The Commander of the RF Black Sea Fleet issued an ultimatum to Ukrainian troops: "If they do not surrender by 5:00 in the morning tomorrow (March 4th) there will be a real military assault on Ukrainian Armed Forces units and bases throughout Crimea." An actual assault on the headquarters of the Ukrainian Navy began at 23.00 March 3rd.

P.S. Please spread this appeal as much as possible.
 
MHz
#2
Got an actual link to points 1-4?

It is now March 5, where is the proof that Russia set a deadline?

(in part)
http://rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov underlined that the country’s military “strictly executes the agreements which stipulate the Russian fleet’s presence in Ukraine, and follows the stance and claims coming from the legitimate authority in Ukraine and in this case the legitimate authority of the Autonomous Republic Crimea as well.”

So here are the facts, numbers, and details of this long-standing (but rarely cited) deal:

1) The Black Sea Fleet has been disputed between Russia and Ukraine since the collapse of the Soviet Union back in 1991.

2) In 1997, the sides finally managed to find common ground and signed three agreements determining the fate of the military bases and vessels in Crimea. Two years later, in 1999, the Russian and Ukrainian parliaments ratified them. Russia has received 81.7 percent of the fleet’s ships after paying the Ukrainian government a compensation of US$526.5 million.

3) Moscow also annually writes off $97.75 million of Kiev’s debt for the right to use Ukrainian waters and radio frequency resources, and for the environmental impact caused by the Black Sea Fleet’s operations.

4) According to the initial agreement, the Russian Black Sea Fleet was to stay in Crimea until 2017, but the deal was later prolonged for another 25 years.

5) The 1997 deal allows the Russian navy to have up to 25,000 troops, 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm, 132 armored vehicles, and 22 military planes on Crimean territory.
Last edited by MHz; Mar 5th, 2014 at 02:15 AM..
 
igor6691
#3
Who block at the moment Ukrainian military units in the Crimea?
Russian special forces are unmarked armed with automatic weapons!
Putin is a liar, liar Lavrov!
The world should know the truth about what is happening!

People! Russia in Putin represents a threat worldwide. They are masked to it that protect ethnic Russian in Crimea. Same can be said Germany, the Czech Republic or another country and implement troops there.
 
El Barto
#4
The world is watching the same news you are
 
petros
#5
F*ck the Neo Bolsheviks!
 
MHz
#6
Be a big boy and pull up your pants and take a deep breath and say, "F*ck the Russians!" so the less educated (you at the front of the line) know who you are referencing.

Quote: Originally Posted by igor6691View Post

Who block at the moment Ukrainian military units in the Crimea?
Russian special forces are unmarked armed with automatic weapons!
Putin is a liar, liar Lavrov!
The world should know the truth about what is happening!

People! Russia in Putin represents a threat worldwide. They are masked to it that protect ethnic Russian in Crimea. Same can be said Germany, the Czech Republic or another country and implement troops there.

Wait till you meet 'two rivers', you will instantly love the whole damn family.
 
petros
#7
You're educated or unmedicated?
 
MHz
#8
I keep forgetting not to feed the trolls, damn, that's twice today so far.

(in part)
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.
http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/

httpwwwyoutubecomwatchvZEgJ0oo3OA8

Last edited by MHz; Mar 5th, 2014 at 10:36 AM..
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
+2
#9  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by igor6691View Post

Who block at the moment Ukrainian military units in the Crimea?
Russian special forces are unmarked armed with automatic weapons!
Putin is a liar, liar Lavrov!
The world should know the truth about what is happening!

People! Russia in Putin represents a threat worldwide. They are masked to it that protect ethnic Russian in Crimea. Same can be said Germany, the Czech Republic or another country and implement troops there.

Don't you understand what's really going on in Ukraine? Ukraine has been in the Russian orbit for over three centuries, and as long as Russia has the power to keep it so, that's where it'll stay. This is about power, pride, and money, that's all. Putin is sending two messages. All that stuff about protecting ethnic Russians, while it reeks of tribalism and ethnic bigotry reminiscent of Hitler's claims about the Sudetenland in the 1930s, is just a smokescreen and really has nothing to do with it. Look at the list of member countries in NATO and the European Union and consider how many of those territories were Soviet client states or republics within the USSR before 1991.

Putin's first message: that's enough of that. He is reasserting Russian pride and power after the humiliation of losing the Cold War and de facto control of all that territory and the lucrative--for Russia--trading bloc it represented. Any attempt to integrate Ukraine or any part of it into NATO or the EU would be profoundly dangerous, Putin is very unlikely to let that happen and every Western power knows it.

Putin's second message is to potentially disruptive elements within Russia itself, and there are plenty of those: if I'll do this to a sovereign foreign nation, imagine what I'll do to you if you mess with me.
 
MHz
#10
Dex, if you take into account the OP most likely came from the western part of the Ukraine that it is somewhat racist in that there was also a post in French that (I assume) was identical. Putting that fact would that not be showing what things are like on the 'home turf' in that there is a language barrier so great that if it isn't in your 'own language' it is garbage (and so is the one who speaks it) Over here if it is in one language and you want it changed you print it out using a translation software tool. Everything today is fill out the forms anyway so official documents can be in any language and it is still legal because it has a stamp saying it is.
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#11
Yes, the area is rife with racism and ethnic bigotry. Ethnic Russians who are Ukrainian citizens still consider themselves Russian, don't speak the local language, and get all their news from state controlled media in Moscow, which are telling them the troubles are due to western fascists stirring things up. The population's about 15% Tatars, who still have a hate on for the Russians because of what Stalin did to them. And so it goes. It is not a very civilized part of the world.
 
MHz
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Putin's first message: that's enough of that. He is reasserting Russian pride and power after the humiliation of losing the Cold War and de facto control of all that territory and the lucrative--for Russia--trading bloc it represented. Any attempt to integrate Ukraine or any part of it into NATO or the EU would be profoundly dangerous, Putin is very unlikely to let that happen and every Western power knows it.

Putin's second message is to potentially disruptive elements within Russia itself, and there are plenty of those: if I'll do this to a sovereign foreign nation, imagine what I'll do to you if you mess with me.

What they learned is that no matter how big you get you can never rule it all. They broke themselves trying to outspend the west, there is never a winner except the banks. Trade without the threats and demands is a trade that will last a long time, all things being equal. A strong defense is always going to be the eventual winner over a strong and brutal offense. The West is a Monarch/serf mentality.

Crimea became protected by Russian Forces (just like Syria could be and all Assad has to do is ask) Crimea is the perfect location for a port that transfers material goods (same as Bahrain would be for Saudi to import the goods that bring it's citizens to the level of American middle class during the 50's and 60's) A BMW would be the bicycle of today kind of trade). It is not a good place to store your most advanced weapons as it would be the first target in any serious military campaign (same as the port in Bahrain)

Anybody in something called a 'hut' would love a free small footprint PC that could run the latest games. XP would have lots of freeware for all the new potential customers. I'm not sure what the customer base is there but if the West did it the contract they got was to 'do the whole country' and then they did the part they wanted done and then demanded full payment and did not supply the rest of the contract. In those times there was no other choice, Crimea does have a choice and that seems to have been made. The early vote is even said to be moved up but that might appear to be too quick if it involves a referendum type of vote by the citizens of the area. They could finalize the separation on the same day the Ukraine votes on who they want to rule them. Even if Russia is a minority if her candidates can porkbarrel the place with commerce then that will be welcomed. Being another $15B in debt and no jobs doesn't get happy campers. The destination would be war torn Syria after Assad brings up at the UN that he wants the right to protect Syrian people from further violence. This is also an election year there and for Assad he can run for one more term of 7 years and then another person with that authority is voted in by the people. the rest of the members are under a different length of time I think but their voting is also up this year (I could be wrong)

If I am not mistaken an 'interm government' can make changes before the 'official vote takes place but to become permanent they also have to win the election. If they lose the 'other side' has the option of ditching any contracts and that would means any money or goods invested could be lost along with the contract.
That delay would allow Crimea to make certain promises early and follow through and that alone being broadcast as the 'alternate' to more Kiev like demonstrations would swing some voters in the Ukraine as to which candidate would get the authority to rule an informed public. When in doubt referendum everything like Iceland did only in Crimea and the Ukraine you have a lot of international commerce going on.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Yes, the area is rife with racism and ethnic bigotry. Ethnic Russians who are Ukrainian citizens still consider themselves Russian, don't speak the local language, and get all their news from state controlled media in Moscow, which are telling them the troubles are due to western fascists stirring things up. The population's about 15% Tatars, who still have a hate on for the Russians because of what Stalin did to them. And so it goes. It is not a very civilized part of the world.

A perfect place to throw a lot of money into so the 'citizens of the common nations' get a decent income and unemployment is hitting 80%.
Does the Ukraine offer local news in Russian like California has Spanish speaking channels? The news is the same.

Part of the changes that took place in Canada is European settles still gathered into a common group but they had to interact with people of a different language so that engineered tolerance to a higher level than if the number was an entire Nation for each language.

Over there the issue is which language is the 'official one' and in the past that would make communication and running a big business easier. That doesn't have to apply in this day and age. Official documents can be in any language (or a translator is freely provided). That seems to be the only real issue. There is probably the issue of equal employment also but if sections were language specific that would mean somebody is going to have to become a specialist over a long period of time.

Russia could always open it's main border to Russian speaking refugees and any Ukrainians that wanted sanctuary, take the statements and file lots of items at the ICC and using G Bush statement about helping the enemy make you just as guilty and that is money as compensation. Saudi's have lots of it stached away in American banks, Syria was the target and they missed the objective.
 
tworivers
No Party Affiliation
#13
Brilliant absolutely brilliant....and you thought of this all by yourself....of course you did no one else can read and come out with a total denial of the truth unless they are deaf , dumb and blind.
 
MHz
#14
It's a week old, really scraping the barrel aren't you.

Like any good leader in charge of a country that is burning down the best course of action for the 'new Government' is to go on vacation to America. (then off to London and a few other places that are far from home. I doubt they will publish just how much that cost the people of the Ukraine) That should really impress the folks back home.

Ukraine's New Leaders Visit Washington - WSJ.com

Here is how stupid Harper is on the whole issue.

(in part)
"I think we really have to credit the Ukrainian people themselves with resisting the attempt to overturn their democracy and to lead their country back into the past," Harper said, flanked by Conservative MPs Ted Opitz and James Bezan and Senator Raynell Andreychuk.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john...aine-1.2551235


(in part)
China’s top envoy to Germany has warned the West against punishing Russia with sanctions for its intervention in Ukraine, saying such measures could lead to a dangerous chain reaction that would be difficult to control. In an interview with Reuters days before the European Union is threatening to impose its first sanctions on Russia since the Cold War, ambassador Shi Mingde issued the strongest warning against such measures by any top Chinese official to date.
“We don’t see any point in sanctions,” Shi said. “Sanctions could lead to retaliatory action, and that would trigger a spiral with unforeseeable consequences. We don’t want this.”

Using her [Merkel's] toughest rhetoric since the crisis began, she warned in a speech in parliament on Thursday that Russia risked “massive” political and economic damage if it did not change course in the coming days.
Russia’s Deputy Economy Minister Alexei Likhachev responded by promising “symmetrical” sanctions by Moscow. But Shi urged patience, saying the door for talks should remain open even after a referendum on Sunday in which Ukraine’s southern region of Crimea could vote to secede and join Russia. Merkel and other western leaders have denounced the referendum as illegal and demanded that it be canceled.
“We still see a chance to avoid an escalation. The door to talks is still open. We should use this possibility, also after the referendum,” Shi said.
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-new...dline_03142014
Last edited by MHz; Mar 14th, 2014 at 02:15 PM..
 

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