“2083 – A European Declaration of Independence”


earth_as_one
#1
“2083 – A European Declaration of Independence”
LINK removed at the request of earth_as_one.

The above document was written by that nutjob who murdered about 80 people in Oslo recently. I refuse to type their name. However I think its important for everyone to be aware of what that person was thinking before and during their atrocity. What is scary is that IMO, many people share his hate filled ideology regarding Islam and Muslims. Opinions similar to this nutjob have been expressed by cable news pundits and members of this forum. The root cause of this atrocity is anti-Muslim demonizing propaganda which is rampant in Western Societies including Canada. This sick person is a symptom of a greater problem which will lead to more atrocities in the future if we don't deal with the growing problem of media driven Islamphobia.

BTW, I am not suggesting that everyone who has these opinions is going to senselessly murder innocent people. But I do think that irrational fear of Islam and Muslims is a serious problem and its far too common. This monster's violent acts are an extreme example of where that irrational hatred leads. The fact that our media is de-emphasizing and/or ignoring this nutjob's ideology is part of the problem.

Everyone who shares this nutjob's ideology should take a step back and closely examine their beliefs. If you find yourself agreeing with this monster, you should probably seek help before you hurt someone:

So here are some selected cut and pastes from that crazy person's manifesto to give you an idea of what he was thinking.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“2083 – A European Declaration of Independence”

The compendium, - “2083 – A European Declaration of Independence” - documents
through more than 1000 pages that the fear of Islamisation is all but irrational.

It covers the following main topics:
1. The rise of cultural Marxism/multiculturalism in Western Europe
2. Why the Islamic colonization and Islamisation of Western Europe began
3. The current state of the Western European Resistance Movements (anti-Marxist/anti-Jihad
movements)
4. Solutions for Western Europe and how we, the resistance, should move forward in the
coming decades
5. + Covering all, highly relevant topics including solutions and strategies for all of the 8
different political fronts

irrational fear of nationalistic doctrines is preventing
us from stopping our own national/cultural suicide as the Islamic colonization is
increasing annually.

It is not only our right but also our duty to contribute to
preserve our identity, our culture and our national sovereignty by preventing the ongoing
Islamisation.

Examples of falsification and apologist rhetoric include:
· Exaggerated claims of Muslim cultural and scientific contributions.
· The Ottoman Empire was tolerant.
· The, “Jewish experience” in the Ottoman Empire “...was a calm, peaceful, and a fruitful
one..”.
· Balkan Christian boys could acquire great social advancement through “recruitment” into
the Ottoman devshirme system.
· The Armenian Genocide never happened. It was rather a struggle between two peoples for
the possession of a single homeland.
· Muslim Andalusia (Moorish Spain) is often pointed out by Muslim apologists as a kind of
multicultural wonderland, in which Jews and Christians were permitted by the Islamic
government to rise through the ranks of learning and government administration.
· Jihad means personal struggle
· Islam is a religion of peace
· Christianity and Islam are equal in terms of historic atrocities
· Maronite Christians (Lebanese Christians) falsely claim to be victims.

95% of today’s Journalists, editors, publishers are pro-
Eurabians (support European multiculturalism). The same goes for 85% of Western
European politicians and more than 90% of EU parliamentarians.

These agreements, completely rewriting European history books to make them more Islamfriendly
and gradually silencing "Islamophobia" as racism, are being implemented even
now.

Many nominal Muslims have retained some vague generalities about morality from
the Quran, and they normally go by their own conscience and sensibility without
ever developing the doctrinally prescribed hostility towards non-Muslims. These
good people, although bad Muslims, can ignore but not change Islamic doctrine.
They cannot prevent the Quranic message of hatred from infecting at least some
of the more susceptible among their brethren and perhaps even their children or
grandchildren in the future.

Islam is certainly in a position to force unbelievers into Dhimmitude
(as is happening in dozens of Muslim countries in varying degrees), and even to wage
new jihads, this time with weapons of mass-destruction.

The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging
violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree.
There are also straightforward calls for terror.

violence against non-Muslims is a central and indispensable principle to Islam

1400 years of Islamic Jihad which resulted in countless genocides
of more than 300 million people, and the enslavement and forceful conversion of more than
300 million)

Islam is
less a personal faith than a political ideology that exists in a fundamental and permanent
state of war with non-Islamic civilisations, cultures, and individuals. The Islamic holy
texts outline a social, governmental, and economic system for all mankind. Those
cultures and individuals who do not submit to Islamic governance exist in an ipso facto
state of rebellion with Allah and must be forcibly brought into submission. The
misbegotten term "Islamo-fascism" is wholly redundant: Islam itself is a kind of fascism
that achieves its full and proper form only when it assumes the powers of the state.

The spectacular acts of Islamic terrorism in the late 20th and early 21st centuries are but
the most recent manifestation of a global war of conquest that Islam has been waging
since the days of the Prophet Muhammad in the 7th Century AD and that continues apace
today.

even if no major terrorist attack ever occurs on
Western soil again, Islam still poses a mortal danger to the West. A halt to terrorism
would simply mean a change in Islam’s tactics -- perhaps indicating a longer-term
approach that would allow Muslim immigration and higher birth rates to bring Islam
closer to victory before the next round of violence. It cannot be overemphasised that
Muslim terrorism is a symptom of Islam that may increase or decrease in intensity while
Islam proper remains permanently hostile.

religious violence is written into Islam's DNA

violent passages in the Bible certainly do no amount to a standing order to
commit violence against the rest of the world. Unlike the Quran, the Bible is a huge
collection of documents written by different people at different times in different
contexts, which allows for much greater interpretative freedom. The Quran, on the other
hand, comes exclusively from one source: Muhammad. It is through the life of
Muhammad that the Quran must be understood, as the Quran itself says. His wars and
killings both reflect and inform the meaning of the Quran. Furthermore, the strict
literalism of the Quran means that there is no room for interpretation when it comes to
its violent injunctions. As it is through the example of Christ, the "Prince of Peace," that
Christianity interprets its scriptures, so it is through the example of the warlord and
despot Muhammad that Muslims understand the Quran.

Who will willingly walk a saint’s path involving pain, sacrifice and martyrdom if there is no
distinction between a paedophile rapist murderer and Saint George of Lydda?

Drawing their inspiration from Muhammad and the Quran, they are invariably disposed to violence. The
unhappy fact is that Islam today is what it has been fourteen centuries: violent,
intolerant, and expansionary. It is folly to think that we, in the course of a few years or
decades, are going to be able to change the basic world outlook of a foreign civilisation.
Islam's violent nature must be accepted as given; only then will we be able to come up
with appropriate policy responses that can improve our chances of survival.

It should not be surprising that a violent political ideology is proving so attractive to
much of the world. The attractive power of fascist ideas has been proven through history.
Islam combines the interior comfort provided by religious faith with the outward power of
a world-transforming political ideology.

The essence of multiculturalism is that all cultures and religions are “equal”. In this
context our Western governments launched a great “campaign of deception” against their
own people with the goal of creating a falsified version of the Islamic and European
Civilisation, in order to make them equal.

One of the common elements to all
Islamic schools of thought is jihad, understood as the obligation of the Ummah to
conquer and subdue the world in the name of Allah and rule it under Sharia law.

The very word
Islam means “submission” and the secularists have submitted already. Many Europeans
have already become Muslims, though they do not realise it or do not want to admit it.
Some of the people I meet in the U.S. are particularly worried about the rise of anti-
Semitism in Europe. They are correct when they fear that anti-Semitism is also on the
rise among non-immigrant Europeans. The latter hate people with a fighting spirit.
Contemporary anti-Semitism in Europe (at least when coming from native Europeans) is
related to anti-Americanism. People who are not prepared to resist and are eager to
submit, hate others who do not want to submit and are prepared to fight. They hate
them because they are afraid that the latter will endanger their lives as well. In their
view everyone must submit.
This is why they have come to hate Israel and America so much, and the small band of
European “islamophobes” who dare to talk about what they see happening around them.

An ideological “war within the West” has paved the way for a physical “war against the
West” waged by Islamic Jihadists, who correctly view our acceptance of Muslim
immigration as a sign of weakness.

We are against Islam. What are we for? I would suggest that one thing we should fight
for is national sovereignty and the right to preserve our culture and pass it on to future
generations. We are fighting for the right to define our own laws and national policies,
not to be held hostage by the United Nations, unaccountable NGOs, transnational
progressives or self-appointed guardians of the truth.

We should completely stop and if necessary ban Muslim immigration.

We need to create an environment where the practice of Islam is made difficult. Much of
this can be done in non-discriminatory ways, by simply refusing to allow special pleading
to Muslims. Do not allow the Islamic public call to prayer as it is offensive to other faiths.
Boys and girls should take part in all sporting and social activities of the school and the
community. The veil should be banned in all public institutions, thus contributing to
breaking the traditional subjugation of women. Companies and public buildings should
not be forced to build prayer rooms for Muslims.

People should be educated about the realities of Jihad and sharia. Educating non-Muslims
about Islam is more important than educating Muslims, but we should do both. Groups of
dedicated individuals should engage in efforts to explain the real nature of Islam,
emphasising the division that Islam teaches between Believer and Infidel, the permanent
state of war between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb and the use of taqiyya and kitman,
religious deception.

The EU is so deeply flawed and infiltrated by pro-Islamic
thinking that it simply cannot be reformed. No, the EU isn’t the only problem we have,
but it is the worst, and we can’t fix our other problems as long as the EU is in charge.
And let’s end the stupid support for the Palestinians that the Eurabians have encouraged
and start supporting our cultural cousin, Israel. Europe’s first line of defence starts in
Jerusalem.

Jews that support multiculturalism today are as much of a
threat to Israel and Zionism (Israeli nationalism) as they are to us. So let us fight
together with Israel, with our Zionist brothers against all anti-Zionists, against all cultural
Marxists/multiculturalists.

>>>>>>>>

eao: I think you get the idea of what this person was thinking. What's really scary is how many people share his ideololgy. Compare the above with a recent posts on this forum by one person regarding Islam:
....do a comparative body count of innocents killed by so-called "Christians" and followers of the "Religion of Peace" in terror attacks??

...Mohammed, in comparison, raped and murdered his way across the Arabian Peninsula, inciting hatred, predicting the mass slaughter of Jews, and taking a six year old wife.

...A recent poll showed 73% of Palestinians approve of the idea of genocide against the Jews.............as expressed in the Hadith.

....Most Palestians support killing Jews, reject 2-state solution

...Islam is as genocidal as Nazism.

...The mosque that was to be built near the site of the WTC is partially financed by fundamentalist Sauds.....the same people that were involved in the 9-11 attacks as a group.

...The very fact the Muslims involved refuse to consider any other venue shows their disrespect, in fact, they are spitting on the graves of close to 3,000 people.

Nobody blames all Muslims, we blame Islam, a religion inspired by a war-mongering pedophile rapist......what would you expect of his followers????


As for your comparison of my ideology and that of the monster, I suggest you go **** yourself. No other comment is possible to that particular insult.
eao: I have no problem seeing similarities in ideology, beliefs and irrational hatred toward Muslims, but perhaps I'm biased. Can anyone else see any similarities?

BTW, my post is not intended as a personal attack against anyone. These posts were just the most convenient to find quickly. This forum is full of Islamaphobic rants similar to the Oslo nutjob's rants above. I would suggest that people consider where their hate filled ideology regarding Muslims leads and make a conscience decision to seek out Muslims and make personal contact with them. When you start to see Muslims as fellow human beings, you might loose your irrational fear and hatred of them.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Jul 31st, 2011 at 08:56 AM..Reason: LINK removed at request of poster
 
Corduroy
+3
#2
There is a large ideological divide between people willing to mass murder children and people who find it among the worst crimes possible. That divide is greater than the one between Islamophobes and Islam-apologists. You have more in common with non-violent Islamophobes than you do with anyone willing to mass murder children.

As proof that this man was just a lunatic randomly piecing together incongruous ideologies, it has been pointed out that he was a fan of Winston Churchill. But knowing anything about history, it's easy to point out how this guy has more in common with Churchill than most of us do. Winston Churchill is well-known for his anti-fascist, and anti-communist rhetoric and his support for democracy. I would agree with him in that way. But he was also a racist and an imperialist and more importantly a mass murderer of innocents.

If I were to use the same logic you just used in the OP, I could find pro-democracy and anti-fascist quotes on this forum and compare them to those of Winston Churchill. Then I could point out that Churchill oversaw the mass murder of tens of thousands of innocent people in Hamburg and Dresden and advocated the use of chemical weapons on Iraqis, and this is what democratic rhetoric leads to.

Or better yet, I could find anti-Zionist posts made by you - things you've said that even I myself agree with - and compare them to the statements of Islamic terrorists.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by CorduroyView Post

There is a large ideological divide between people willing to mass murder children and people who find it among the worst crimes possible. That divide is greater than the one between Islamophobes and Islam-apologists. You have more in common with non-violent Islamophobes than you do with anyone willing to mass murder children.
As proof that this man was just a lunatic randomly piecing together incongruous ideologies, it has been pointed out that he was a fan of Winston Churchill. But knowing anything about history, it's easy to point out how this guy has more in common with Churchill than most of us do. Winston Churchill is well-known for his anti-fascist, and anti-communist rhetoric and his support for democracy. I would agree with him in that way. But he was also a racist and an imperialist and more importantly a mass murderer of innocents.
If I were to use the same logic you just used in the OP, I could find pro-democracy and anti-fascist quotes on this forum and compare them to those of Winston Churchill. Then I could point out that Churchill oversaw the mass murder of tens of thousands of innocent people in Hamburg and Dresden and advocated the use of chemical weapons on Iraqis, and this is what democratic rhetoric leads to.
Or better yet, I could find anti-Zionist posts made by you - things you've said that even I myself agree with - and compare them to the statements of Islamic terrorists.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
You almost got a greenie for that............not that you would (or should) care........in fact I may just go back and give you one anyway.

Winston Churchill a murderer! Perish the thought.......

World War Two was a total war. When war became such that the totality of the industrial production of a nation is turned towards the perpetuation of the war machine, then the producers of same become targets. Unpleasant but true.

You would perhaps have preferred we carried on the war as it was in the first days.....when a British pilot was taken to task for throwing out bales of pamphlets over Berlin without first opening them.....because they might have landed on someone as a bale and hurt them.

Well, so would I, if the alternative were not us all goose-stepping and speaking German. And baking Jews.

As for Iraq, he expressed his willingness to use gas........but it never happened. AND it was proposed by him before the treaty banning its use as a weapon.........
 
earth_as_one
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by CorduroyView Post

There is a large ideological divide between people willing to mass murder children and people who find it among the worst crimes possible. That divide is greater than the one between Islamophobes and Islam-apologists. You have more in common with non-violent Islamophobes than you do with anyone willing to mass murder children.
As proof that this man was just a lunatic randomly piecing together incongruous ideologies, it has been pointed out that he was a fan of Winston Churchill. But knowing anything about history, it's easy to point out how this guy has more in common with Churchill than most of us do. Winston Churchill is well-known for his anti-fascist, and anti-communist rhetoric and his support for democracy. I would agree with him in that way. But he was also a racist and an imperialist and more importantly a mass murderer of innocents.
If I were to use the same logic you just used in the OP, I could find pro-democracy and anti-fascist quotes on this forum and compare them to those of Winston Churchill. Then I could point out that Churchill oversaw the mass murder of tens of thousands of innocent people in Hamburg and Dresden and advocated the use of chemical weapons on Iraqis, and this is what democratic rhetoric leads to.
Or better yet, I could find anti-Zionist posts made by you - things you've said that even I myself agree with - and compare them to the statements of Islamic terrorists.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
This nutjob probably didn't start out with an intent to commit an atrocity. I'd even go so far as to say that this nutjob probably would have found his actions abhorrent before 9/11. They had an intolerant Muslim hating philosophy for a long time and its roots can be traced to rampant Islamphobia in our MSM. Over the last 10 years this nutjob followed his hate filled ideology down a very slippery path for years and eventually it led to this atrocity. Many people on this forum should recognize the sign posts on that path in the nutjob's manifesto.

I'm not saying that rabid Muslim hating intolerance will always lead to violence or to this degree of violence, but violence is a possible outcome and Oslo is not the only place where someone with a Muslim hating ideology might commit atrocities. I can reference many examples:

Quote:

AUSTIN, Texas - Texas on Wednesday executed a man for killing a store clerk near Dallas in 2001 in what he had called a "patriotic" act of retaliation for the 9/11 attacks. Mark Stroman, 41, was convicted of entering the store where Vasudev Patel was working on Sept 21, 2001, demanding money from the register, and then shooting him in the chest.
He admitted to at least three attacks in the weeks after the September 11, 2001, terror attacks on New York and Washington, all on men he believed to be of Middle Eastern descent.

CANOE -- CNEWS: - Texas executes 9/11 revenge killer

Most people recognize anti-Semiticism as evil and most are rightly quick to criticize it. Yet when someone expresses a similar hate filled ideology regarding Muslims, far too many people are silent, or worse agree. That's a problem in my opinion.

BTW, your belief that I am anti-semitic or rabidly hate Jews is a product of pro-death and destruction propaganda which promotes the common misperception that all criticism of the Zionist State of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic. FYI, I am not even against Zionism. I am against believing that God gave one group of people the right to violently ethnic cleanse a region of another group of people. I am against all the resulting war crimes and crimes against humanity which resulted from this belief. I would support Zionism if the people left voluntarily without coercion. The amount of money spent supporting the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by the Zionist state of Israel could have bought Palestine many times over. If Zionism accomplished its goals non-violently with the willing cooperation of the people already living there, I'd support it. I might even have donated money.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 28th, 2011 at 01:48 PM..
 
Corduroy
+1
#5
The Churchill thing is for another thread, which I would love to take part in.



Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

This nutjob probably didn't start out with an intent to commit an atrocity. I'd even go so far as to say that this nutjob probably would have found his actions abhorrent before 9/11. They had an intolerant Muslim hating philosophy for a long time and its roots can be traced to rampant Islamphobia in our MSM. Over the last 10 years this nutjob followed his hate filled ideology down a very slippery path for years and eventually it led to this atrocity. Many people on this forum should recognize the sign posts on that path in the nutjob's manifesto.
I'm not saying that rabid Muslim hating intolerance will always lead to violence or to this degree of violence, but violence is a possible outcome and Oslo is not the only place where someone with a Muslim hating ideology might commit atrocities. I can reference many examples:
CANOE -- CNEWS: - Texas executes 9/11 revenge killer
Most people recognize anti-Semiticism as evil and most are rightly quick to criticize it. Yet when someone expresses a similar hate filled ideology regarding Muslims, far too many people are silent, or worse agree. That's a problem in my opinion.
BTW, your belief that I am anti-semitic or rabidly hate Jews is a product of believing that all criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic. FYI, I am not even against Zionism. I am...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
It's almost as if you didn't even read my post.
 
earth_as_one
#6
Too many edits I suppose... I answered your response. You just didn't understand it.\

Let me simplify.

I agree with you that people who believe in non-violence have more in common with each other than people who believe in violence.

I disagree with you regarding the benign-ness of people-phobias or that I am I am guilty of any. I don't apologize for any violent acts because I don't support any. I condemn all violent acts and I also condemn this violent act.

I condemn all forms of hatred.

I disagree with you that this person was "randomly piecing together incongruous ideologies". Anyone reading his manifesto can see this man was following an extreme sense of hatred. I have a problem with that. If this hatred was directed at Jews, I'm sure you'd see the connection. The only people who can't see this plainly are people who share his hatred of Muslims or those who find it rational.

Perhaps you'd like to express your opinion regarding the cultural genocide threat posed by Muslim infiltration of our society and the need to act quickly and decisively?
 
Corduroy
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I disagree with you regarding the benign-ness of people-phobias or that I am I am guilty of any. I don't apologize for any violent acts because I don't support any. I condemn all violent acts and I also condemn this violent act.

Did I accuse you of having any phobias? Did I suggest you apologize for violence? How are you disagreeing with me on something I never said?

Quote:

I disagree with you that this person was "randomly piecing together incongruous ideologies".

I didn't say that either. In fact, I said the opposite.

It's odd that you would accuse me of not understanding your response, when it seems that you're imagining I said things when I clearly did not. I understood your response. I just didn't understand how it relates to my post. It's obvious now that the problem is that you were responding to an imagined post of mine.


I said that your logic could be extended to any number of ideologies and that abhorrent acts of violence have been committed in the name of them all. People who supported ending fascism in Europe mass murdered the innocent citizens of fascist states for that cause. People who support Palestinian self-determination have mass murdered innocents in Israel for that cause.

And I have seen rhetoric used on this forum against American foreign policy which is identical to the rhetoric used by Al Qaeda in justifying the attacks on 9/11.

You're arguing that some posters' anti-Islamic rhetoric is similar to that of this Norwegian terrorist and that because of this, one should stop and think about where their ideology may lead. I'm saying that this logic can be applied to many more causes, including your own rhetoric against Israel.

You can incessantly assert that you are against violence, and I'll believe you, but your faulty logic still applies to your own rhetoric. You have two options: continue to plead a special case that this blanket insinuation wouldn't apply to you or admit that the logic was faulty and it doesn't apply anywhere.

Or the third option: some tangential argument about double standards when it comes to antisemitism and Islamophobia and "did I mention I condemn all violence?" and so on and so on with all your favourite tropes, not actually addressing even you own OP.
 
earth_as_one
#8
What I am saying is that this person had an irrational hatred of Muslims. This person could have chosen any number of targets. He chose Norway's political leaders and their families.

Would it have made a difference if his irrational hatred of Muslims and Islam lead to violence against "Jews that support multiculturalism"?

Irrational hatred of Muslims is promoted by our main stream media and strong anti-Islam and Muslim prejudices are rampant in Norway, Canada and elsewhere. In fact, the MSM's current de-emphasis of this man's irrational, hatred towards Muslims is part of the problem.

Try as you like to divert and distract... this is about the Muslim form of antisemitism.

I would agree that this person is not a Christian extremist. He would more accurately be described as a NeoCon Extremist:

ZAMAN
Quote:

the manifesto that nutjob was very much influenced by the ideology of the US neoconservatives. He feels that nutjob is neither rightist, nationalist nor a neo-Nazi but someone who has remained under the influence of neocons. “He sees Islam as a threat to the world just like neocons do,” said Kıvanç.Yeni Akit’s Abdurrahman Dilipak thinks the blue-eyed, blond-haired man triggered the deterioration of the great Western image with the pull of his weapon’s trigger. He said nutjob was neither the first nor will he be the last man to have such feelings in Europe, as was also mentioned in the 1,500-page manifesto.

What led us to Breivik?

btw, I recommend this Turkish news source:
Today's Zaman, your gateway to Turkish daily news
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 28th, 2011 at 04:04 PM..
 
Corduroy
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

What I am saying is that this person had an irrational hatred of Muslims. This person could have chosen any number of targets. He chose Norway's political leaders and their families.

If only you'd left at that.

Quote:

Irrational hatred of Muslims is promoted by our main stream media and strong anti-Islam and Muslim prejudices are rampant in Norway, Canada and elsewhere. In fact, the MSM's current de-emphasis of this man's irrational, hatred towards Muslims is part of the problem.

Funny, look in any of the anti-multiculturalism threads on this forum and you'll see the exact opposite accusation made. There are several of them currently active on the forum. Have a look. In one of these threads a poster accuses A&W commercials as being part of the multicultural conspiracy. It's good for a laugh. It seems to me that mainstream media is always against the ideology of whomever uses the term or the now popular acronym. Forgive me for not taking any of you seriously.
 
earth_as_one
#10
Canada is a multicultural society, something opposed by that nutjob in Oslo and many people here on this forum.

Many people who posted in this string share the same hate filled ideology as that nutjob:
More Needless Multiculturalism Problems From Immigrants

The Oslo nutjob was obsessed with Muslim cultural genocide threat and the Islamization of Europe. His extreme hate of Islam and Muslims was a reflection of his extreme neo-con ideology. The people he references to back up his irrational hatred of Muslims and the cultural genocide threat to Europe poised by Islam are well known neo-cons. Most of his viewpoints are shared by neo-cons. If he hadn't murdered all those people, he'd probably be a welcome guest on FoxNews for an anti-Islam hatefest.

If every reference to Muslims and Islam was replaced with Jews and Judaism in this nutjob's manifest, I'm certain the MSM media would have no trouble identifying this nutjob as anti-Semitic. I'm certain that this atrocity would cause people to talk about the evils of anti-Semitism. But since his irrational hatred was directed at Muslims, and shared by neo-con political leaders and news pundits in the US, Canada and Europe... its a non-issue.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 29th, 2011 at 07:58 AM..
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
#11
I fail to see how this guy is any different than the muslim clerics screaming "Death to America" and "Death to the infidels" . Same mentality.
AS far as mulit-culti goes, it is a bad idea. THe US idea of melting pot is superior in making a cohesive society. I was born hers as were my parents. That makes me a Canadian, no hyphen required.
 
earth_as_one
#12
I agree Tax slave regrading irrational hatred of the US and the West which is common throughout the middle east. It is the same problem as this nutjob's irrational hatred of Muslims.

I notice you only complain about one problem, but not the other. Why aren't you concerned about irrational hatred of Muslims which is a common problem here in Canada?

I suggest you read nutjob's manifesto. I posted a link to it in the first post. I bet you and nutjob have more in common with each other, besides your shared views regarding multiculturalism. His hatred of Muslims and Islam led to him murdering about 80 innocent people. Where is your shared hatred of Muslims and Islam leading you?

BTW, I am not suggesting you are as extreme as the Oslo nutjob, only that irrational hatred of Muslims is a problem in our society and you may have this problem. Read the manifest (or at least the summary of it). See the first post in this thread. If you find yourself agreeing with most of what nutjob wrote, I suggest you get help.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 29th, 2011 at 09:06 AM..
 
Machjo
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by CorduroyView Post

There is a large ideological divide between people willing to mass murder children and people who find it among the worst crimes possible. That divide is greater than the one between Islamophobes and Islam-apologists. You have more in common with non-violent Islamophobes than you do with anyone willing to mass murder children.
As proof that this man was just a lunatic randomly piecing together incongruous ideologies, it has been pointed out that he was a fan of Winston Churchill. But knowing anything about history, it's easy to point out how this guy has more in common with Churchill than most of us do. Winston Churchill is well-known for his anti-fascist, and anti-communist rhetoric and his support for democracy. I would agree with him in that way. But he was also a racist and an imperialist and more importantly a mass murderer of innocents.
If I were to use the same logic you just used in the OP, I could find pro-democracy and anti-fascist quotes on this forum and compare them to those of Winston Churchill. Then I could point out that Churchill oversaw the mass murder of tens of thousands of innocent people in Hamburg and Dresden and advocated the use of chemical weapons on Iraqis, and this is what democratic rhetoric leads to.
Or better yet, I could find anti-Zionist posts made by you - things you've said that even I myself agree with - and compare them to the statements of Islamic terrorists.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Churchill was a great man indeed, but I wouldn't eulogize him too much:
"It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious middle temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half-naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organizing and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience, to parley on equal terms with the representative of the king-emperor."
- Winston Churchill, 1930
As you can see, he was also an imperialist.
 
wulfie68
No Party Affiliation
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I notice you only complain about one problem, but not the other. Why aren't you concerned about irrational hatred of Muslims which is a common problem here in Canada?

How about because they are side effects of a common cause? If various Muslim groups were integrated into society better, there would be greater understanding and tolerance. The fact that multi-culturalism encourages groups to stand apart and isolate themselves from others in the name of "protecting their cultural identity", only encourages the divides that create distrust and later fear & hatred.

Honestly, I don't think there is an irrational fear of Muslims in most of Canada. I can't really say for sure, as I lived in Alberta for the vast majority of my life and most of the people I was in contact with were westerners. There isn't widespread Islamophobia out there. People look with disdain on the acts of the terrorists, whether it was the hijacking of ships/planes in the 70s and 80s or the suicide bombers of today, and people generally buy into the government line as far as military actions go, but as long as Ali, Mahmoud and Tariq don't try and push their religion and the laws of their former homeland on anyone, no one really cares. Yes, people don't look very deeply into a lot of the root causes of foreign disputes (hell or many domestic ones for that matter) but that is their perogative.
 
DaSleeper
#15
Just check out what is happening in Britain


Sharia poster boy - YouTube

 
mentalfloss
No Party Affiliation
#16
Das backing an atheist that vehemently insults all christians and muslims.. This is new..
 
DaSleeper
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Das backing an atheist that vehemently insults all christians and muslims.. This is new..

He insults those religious nuts that are 'in your face' and pontificate. In that respect I agree with him..
Religion is a personal thing to me and I try never to push my beliefs on anybody else....and oh yes even some atheists pontificate.
 
earth_as_one
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

He insults those religious nuts that are 'in your face' and pontificate. In that respect I agree with him..
Religion is a personal thing to me and I try never to push my beliefs on anybody else....and oh yes even some atheists pontificate.

I think nutjob's rants strike much closer to home than that.


Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

You pay good lip service to being against all violence but your posts say different...you have a definite bias against Israel for some reason and it shows.....

And sometimes I suspect that some of your acolytes if not you.... would have no objections to becoming Dhimmis in their own country......

I recognize the word Dhimmis. Neo-cons use it all the time to justify their irrational hatred of Muslims and Arabs. Let me see if I can find any references to Dhimmi in Oslo nutjob's manifest. Yep, nutjob repeated the word Dhimmi hundreds of times in his rantings in more or less the same context as you. In fact many of nutjob's claims sound like you could have wrote them.

Quotes from the Oslo Nutjob's manifest.
http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-co...dependence.pdf

(Do any of nutjob's claims sound familiar to you?)
The dhimmis are inferior beings who endure humiliation
and aggression in silence. This arrangement allows Muslims to enjoy an impunity that
increases both their hatred and their feeling of superiority, under the protection of the
law.

Islamisation or the creation of Islamic no-go zones is under development from the first
Muslim family moves into a neighbourhood. As soon as this very first family moves in, a
progressive dhimmitude begins for all non-Muslims as they, at first, out of politeness (or
due to PC) chose to show special considerations towards the Muslims (we wouldn’t want
them to feel offended in any way do we?). Considerations/politeness develops into
uncomfortable pressure to give the Muslims an increasing number of concessions. The
process of Islamisation starts with the demands for halal-food (1%) and ends in genocide
(at 50-80%), as several hundred historical examples have shown. You cannot reason
with Islam. Islam consumes everything eventually unless it is stopped in a decisive manner. The process of Islamisation from 1% to 100% follows a classical and well known
pre-defined pattern as specified in another section of this book. Had this “first family”
been deported/chased away/killed the process of Islamisation and the creation of future
Islamic no-go zones can/could be avoided. Islamic demands lead to dhimmitude for the
non-Muslims. Dhimmitude ALWAYS lead to a point where non-Muslims surrender and
move out of the area or are systematically killed like we see with the
Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist minorities in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Bangladesh,
Indonesia and in more than 30 other countries/territories. The moral of the story is; you
cannot reason with Islam, you can only isolate it.

The civilisation of dhimmitude does not
develop all at once. It is a long process that involves many elements and a specific
conditioning. It happens when peoples replace history by myths, when they fight to
uphold these destructive myths, more then their own values because they are confused
by having transformed lies into truth. They hold to those myths as if they were the only
guarantee of their survival, when, in fact, they are the path to destruction. Terrorised by
the evidence and teaching of history, those peoples preferred to destroy it rather than to
face it. They replace history with childish tales, thus living in amnesia.

The new European civilisation in the making can correctly be termed a ''civilisation of
dhimmitude.'' The word dhimmitude comes from the Koranic word ''dhimmi.'' It refers to
the subjugated, non-Muslim individuals who accept restrictive and humiliating
subordination to Islamic power in order to avoid enslavement or death.

Time is of the essence. We have only a few decades to consolidate a sufficient level of
resistance before our major cities are completely demographically overwhelmed by
Muslims. Ensuring the successful distribution of this compendium to as many Europeans
as humanly possible will significantly contribute to our success. It may be the only way to
avoid our present and future dhimmitude (enslavement) under Islamic majority rule in
our own countries.


Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald shares his worries about MESA[18]:
“As an organisation, MESA has over the past two decades slowly but surely been taken
over by apologists for Islam.” “The apologetics consists in hardly ever discussing Jihad,
dhimmitude, or indeed even introducing the students to Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira.”

Islam's persecution of non-Muslims is in no way limited to jihad, even though that is the
basic relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world. After the jihad concludes in
a given area with the conquest of infidel territory, the dhimma, or treaty of protection,
may be granted to the conquered "People of the Book" -- historically, Jews, Christians,
and Zoroastrians. The dhimma provides that the life and property of the infidel are
exempted from jihad for as long as the Muslim rulers permit, which has generally meant
for as long as the subject non-Muslims -- the dhimmi -- prove economically useful to the
Islamic state.

The status of these dhimmi peoples is comparable in many ways to that of former slaves in
the post-bellum American South. Forbidden to construct houses of worship or repair
extant ones, economically crippled by the jizya, socially humiliated, legally discriminated
against, and generally kept in a permanent state of weakness and vulnerability by the
Muslim overlords, it should not be surprising that their numbers dwindled, in many places
to the point of extinction.

Should the dhimmi violate the conditions of the dhimma -- perhaps through practicing his
own religion indiscreetly or failing to show adequate deference to a Muslim -- then the
jihad resumes. At various times in Islamic history, dhimmi peoples rose above their
subjected status, and this was often the occasion for violent reprisals by Muslim
populations who believed them to have violated the terms of the dhimma.

while I was analyzing and writing about the processes of dhimmitude and the
civilisation of dhimmitude, while listening to the radio, watching television, reading the
newspapers, I had the uncomfortable feeling that the clock was being turned back.

So, is the past always prologue? Are we doomed to remain always prisoners of the same
errors? Certainly, if we do not know the past; and this past -- the long and agonising
process of Christian annihilation by the laws of Jihad and dhimmitude -- is a taboo
history, not only in Islamic lands, but above all in the West.

the Western population can in the future be transformed into half-slaves
(dhimmis) and their property (slowly) taken over by those in power – Muslims.

The European officer corps and the noncommissioned
officers have not yet been replaced. Non-Muslims will later according to
the rules of dhimmitude not be allowed to own weapons, or be part of the armed forces.


Supporting references from the Oslo nutjob's manifest: (Aren't these the same websites you also reference to back up your points?)

http://americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5418
Little Green Footballs - CAIR Founder Convicted of Terrorism
Muslims Hold Sensitivity Training for FBI Agents, Health Care Professionals - Jihad Watch
UK student warned to stop protesting anti-Semitism - Jihad Watch
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22323&only
Saudi Prince Gives Millions to Harvard and Georgetown to spread Islam - Jihad Watch
Little Green Footballs - WAMY Runs Jihad Camps in Ontario
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008907.php
Poller: Referendum On A Constitution For A Patchwork Nation Without Borders - Jihad Watch
EU raises 2005 aid to Palestinians to ?280 million - Jihad Watch
G8 offers<em> $9 billion</em> to Palestinians - Jihad Watch
http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...rticle_id=4992

So after reading the same crap from the same websites and spouting the same irrational hatred against Muslims and Islam as nutjub, do you also feel the same need to act quickly and decisively against the cultural genocide threat posed by Muslim infiltration of our society?
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 29th, 2011 at 04:57 PM..
 
DaSleeper
#19
You were in the right thread the first place you tool......moving goal posts and going all over the place isn't enough for you...now you're cross thread quoting...
You have so many anti Israel threads going that you've lost it...take a break.. this shyte is getting to you
 
earth_as_one
#20
This thread is about the nutjob in Oslo, his manifest and his ideology. Anything in his manifesto is on topic. I noticed nutjob's ideology is close if not identical to yours and many other Muslim haters on this forum. He shares your opinions, uses the same terminology and even references the same websites.

I may be doing you a huge favor by pointing out where your irrational hatred of Muslims and extreme neocon ideology could lead.

You are welcome.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 29th, 2011 at 06:15 PM..
 
DaSleeper
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

This thread is about the nutjob in Oslo, his manifest and his ideology. Anything in his manifesto is on topic. I noticed nutjob's ideology is close if not identical to yours and many other Muslim haters on this forum. He shares your opinions, uses the same terminology and even references the same websites.

I may be doing you a huge favor by pointing out where your irrational hatred of Muslims and extreme neocon ideology could lead.

You are welcome.

Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

You pay good lip service to being against all violence but your posts say different...you have a definite bias against Israel for some reason and it shows.....

And sometimes I suspect that some of your acolytes if not you.... would have no objections to becoming Dhimmis in their own country......

You don't fool me with your deflecting, click on my quote or the one you C/P ed as posted by me and it takes you to another thread..
also against the rules

Quote:


1 - Do not duplicate thread.
If your comment is related to another similar thread, please continue in the same one.

 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#22
First Colpy you are right the German War Machine and the propaganda department went on
radio and announced a declaration of Total War. The fight was on, Coventry, Dresden and
so on reduced to rubble to follow the total war declaration. It was Kill or be Killed with nothing
in between. Starting to sound familiar? Actually it is. The Nazi Movement was not Left wing
it was Right wing under a program of National Socialism which was quite different from the
original teachings of Soviet Socialism that was hijacked by Stalin and turned into something
quite different.
Flash forward to the beginning of the twenty first century. Nazi style Fascism and the Muslim
religious Fascism are one in the same. The two societies, modern western civilization and the
Muslim Ideology will escalate into some very unpleasant actions in the coming yeas. 2001,
ushered in the collision officially and is growing everyday. I for one can see the day when the
fight will be in our own streets. We Are Not At War With a few radical fundamentalists, no we
are at war with Islam itself. The reason is because the moderate elements do not speak up
and put the radicals in check. When that happens the radicals concentrate power and the
moderates are silenced by fear. Taliban is a prime example of what happens when good folks
do nothing.
Eventually, unfortunately the decent into war will come out on our streets, it will take some time
but the future has made room for such events. We will see more and more racism both ways.
Ethnic cleansing is coming to a village near you if the present is allowed to go on unchecked.
Multiculturalism, that even I once believed in is little more than a cruel joke. It is being abused,
and used to down grade the laws in our country. The time has come to determine who is and
who is not a Canadian in the true sense of the word. Racist statement? No actually there are
many Muslim people who do abide by the laws of our country and they should be encouraged.
Those who would engage in planting bombs or collecting money for terrorist groups and those
who encourage or pay the passage of young men to go to foreign lands to train as radical
soldiers for Islam, Should have the citizenship revoked and they themselves should be deported.
If you are coming here from where ever, if you are found to be disloyal you should not be allowed
to stay, simply put.
The time has come to stop accommodating all the minority groups and start treating everyone as
Canadians. If you want special treatment then leave. I don't see Ukrainians, or Polish people
asking for special treatment. Jamaicans, and Spaniard, British or Irish, the Japanese, they don'
seem to need special treatment. They came here to be Canadians and contribute to the new
society they entered. Time to drop the old ways off at the point of entry and come and join a new
way of life where we are tolerant of each other. Perhaps i don't sound all that tolerant in this piece
but I am being tolerant. I am saying for those who are embracing the changing world all is well,
and welcome. For those who want or expect that I have to change everything about my way of life
to accommodate them, they took take another look at their living accommodations.
We have one set of laws, Sharia Law has no place in Canadian Society, either for society or for a
specific group in the society.
The time has come to demand our government gets a backbone. While we are at it, special favours
for Christians and other religions have to come to an end as well. Everyone should be directed by the
law of the land. All churches should pay all the taxes everyone pays and they get credit for their
charity work, everything else is taxable and subject to all laws and taxes.
Am I afraid of Islam no, but I am concerned that we tolerate certain groups within that segment of the
population that advocate violence and intimidation. At some point if we allow the situation to go
unchecked and unchallenged it will lead to violence, civil unrest, an inflaming of racism, discrimination
and even the threat of civil war.
The manifesto of a blood thirsty killer and mad man might be enough to have people wake up and
realize the uneasy world full of serious danger, we are leaving our grandchildren. We can make a
difference and appeasing violent groups bent on our destruction is not going to improve the condition
of anyone. (end of rant)
 
earth_as_one
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

You don't fool me with your deflecting, click on my quote or the one you C/P ed as posted by me and it takes you to another thread..
also against the rules


1) This is not a duplicate thread.
2) Your post was in a public thread, not a PM
3) My post was not internet stalking. You posted in both threads. I thought your post in the other thread was more appropriately replied to and more on topic here, where we are talking about the Oslo nutjob's ideology which is apparently closely aligned with your ideology.

Feel free to report me and if I did violate forum rules, then I support removing my post and you get an apology from me.

Regarding deflecting. I'm on topic when I point out similarities between the Oslo nutjob's ideology and anyone else, including you. In fact, I see bring the similarities to your attention as doing you a favor.
 
DaSleeper
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

1) This is not a duplicate thread.
2) Your post was in a public thread, not a PM
3) My post was not internet stalking. You posted in both threads. I thought your post in the other thread was more appropriately replied to and more on topic here, where we are talking about the Oslo nutjob's ideology which is apparently closely aligned with your ideology.

Feel free to report me and if I did violate forum rules, then I support removing my post and you get an apology from me.

Unlike some childish people I only report spammers...

And who made you a mod to move posts and decide where they are appropriate???
 
earth_as_one
#25
DG, I read what you wrote and it is on topic. I appreciate your sincerity. Based on what I read, I would not class your opinions as an irrational hatred.

I'm curious if you read the C&P I did of the Oslo nutjob's manifesto in the first post in this thread? Perhaps you can explain to me how your ideology differs from or aligns with the Oslo nutjob.

BTW, I defend free speech and I would have defended the right of the Oslo nutcase to express his viewpoint up until he acted or called people to act in a violent illegal manner.

I also feel the same way about DS and others who (IMO) have an irrational hatred towards an identifiable group.
 
DaSleeper
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

DG, I read what you wrote and it is on topic. I appreciate your sincerity. Based on what I read, I would not class your opinions as an irrational hatred.

I'm curious if you read the C&P I did of the Oslo nutjob's manifesto in the first post in this thread? Perhaps you can explain to me how your ideology differs from or aligns with the Oslo nutjob.

BTW, I defend free speech and I would have defended the right of the Oslo nutcase to express his viewpoint up until he acted or called people to act in a violent illegal manner.

I also feel the same way about DS and others who (IMO) have an irrational hatred towards an identifiable group.

You're right....I hate an identifiable group...Terrorists....don't you??? yes or no?

It just so happens that since 2000 and I provided the link in another thread that the majority of terrorist acts have been perpetrated by islamic extremists and most often against their own....
But you still don't get it or pretend not to...that Bush thread was my ying to your yang you one trick pony.
One of your first threads in this forum was this one...
The Israel/Lebanon conflict
Now that one didn't gather much momentum...but you didn't get discouraged and kept trying and managed to get a few followers....for you hatred of Israel.
Now I support freedom of speech....even your... ...but I also have a right to be bored with your Shyte....
End of rant...and cary on
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I agree Tax slave regrading irrational hatred of the US and the West which is common throughout the middle east. It is the same problem as this nutjob's irrational hatred of Muslims.

I notice you only complain about one problem, but not the other. Why aren't you concerned about irrational hatred of Muslims which is a common problem here in Canada?

I suggest you read nutjob's manifesto. I posted a link to it in the first post. I bet you and nutjob have more in common with each other, besides your shared views regarding multiculturalism. His hatred of Muslims and Islam led to him murdering about 80 innocent people. Where is your shared hatred of Muslims and Islam leading you?

BTW, I am not suggesting you are as extreme as the Oslo nutjob, only that irrational hatred of Muslims is a problem in our society and you may have this problem. Read the manifest (or at least the summary of it). See the first post in this thread. If you find yourself agreeing with most of what nutjob wrote, I suggest you get help.

I don't hate anyone except those that don't pay their bills or lie. There are not all that many people in Canada that have an irrational hatred of muslims either. There are a lot that do not like the nutbars that run the islamic churches as a religion of hatred. How may Canadians do you see running down the street shouting death to islam? Or dragging a muslim through the streets until his head pulls off?
Multiculturalism is a colossal failure. It creates divisions in our society by helping immigrants keep their culture instead of becoming Canadians. If they want to bring their culture, traditions and wars along why come to Canada?
 
Colpy
Conservative
#28
Personally, I make it a practice never to read the nonsense rantings of the depraved.

Just for fun I took a quick look at the Canadian list of banned terrorist organizations.

At a quick count, 24 of the banned organizations are Islamist.

13 are not.

Right. Islamist freaks are obviously not a problem. (insert rolled eyes here)

BTW, I included both the PFLP and the PLF in the NON Islamist section.......as they appear to be more political terrorists than religious ones......

Oh....and there were NO fundamentalist Christian groups..........jusy FYI.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
+1
#29
Islam is intolerant there is no question about that, they demand that all convert to their beliefs
or die, how could that fit into a democracy? Of course it can't square with democracy,. How is
it that Canadians try as they do to integrate intolerance into a societal democratic society?
Even in Libya, what are we dealing with? Nothing short of tribes. Yes we are trying to defend
the positions of the various tribesmen against the current administration. No matter how hard
you try you cannot integrate societal people with tribal people. Societal people try to find ways
to accommodate others, Tribes defend the tribe first, they are loyal to the tribe first and the
concept of nationhood is almost inconceivable. Therefore how do we expect them to come
here and be loyal Canadians. It is time we started thinking about this and it time for government
to meet its responsibility to those who are already Loyal Canadians.
All people coming here should be required to take a number of oaths. Loyalty to the country,
loyal only to the Laws of Canada, and an oath requiring them to inform on all who would want
to do harm to this country.
What would be the impact on our society if we required this as a prerequisite to becoming a
citizen of Canada

The Oslo nut job is irrational he hates for the sake of hatred. All multiculturalism is to be
shunned. That is not possible in the present world at least in the Western Democracies.
People come from all over the world and they bring with them their traditions and their
celebrations. That is great it brings people together in a positive way, it give people a
better understanding of peoples origins.
The Muslims however are determined to wipe out every other society except their own,
the come to the new land with the intent on imposing their Sharia law on the new society
they enter and on the Muslims who moved to the new land to get away from the crazy
world they were forced to endure. I personally know some Muslims who I find fascinating
for the most part.. Those who have a professional education do not think the same as
the militants and hard liners. We find fundamentalists and moderates in all societies even
in tribal ones.
The fundamentalist movement however is never vocally opposed by the moderates and
if they are allowed to continue with their violence and bombings it will lead to civil war and
severe challenges for a number of societies. The nut job, doesn't propose solutions he
is just crazy and believes in just killing people. For what purpose? Just like the intolerance
he professed to be against he committed an even more monstrous crime.
I think he should face the ultimate penalty execution. What he did was indefensible in any
form unless someone is crazy. I am not advocating hatred, ethnic cleansing, civil war, or
discrimination. I am merely pointing out that if we continue to ignore the problem like we
appear to be doing, we are facing some very unstable times as others will deal with it in a
much different manner. We need the moderate Islamic Community to take a firm stand
against the fundamentalists and terrorists. We also need a government with a backbone
and some guts to say no you will obey the law, and you will behave in the manner society
demands of you, or you will lose your citizenship and be deported.
I differ greatly from the nut job and I could never defend his actions, I also believe you have
to be aware of the collision of cultures that is coming right at us in Canada
 
petros
#30
Do all Lutherans hate Jews because Luther did?
 

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