Seoul rejects offer from North to talk

changoo

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North Korea issued a vague invitation for talks with South Korea in a news statement that abstained from its usual harsh criticism of the South's government.


The overture appeared by its timing and method of delivery to be more of a public-relations tactic than a genuine diplomatic invitation. Seoul rejected it out of hand.


"We think it is not a serious offer," said Lee Jong-joo, a spokeswoman for South Korea's Unification Ministry, which deals with the North.


Ms. Lee added South Korea wants North Korea to acknowledge its recent attacks, including the sinking of a warship and shelling of a civilian-inhabited island, that together resulted in the deaths of 50 South Koreans.


"We think it's time for North Korea to act, not just make some kind of rhetoric," she said.


The governments of the two Koreas have a formal means of communication through a daily exchange at military posts in the inter-Korean border, which is known as the demilitarized zone. After months of heightened tension, much of their routine conversation has been confined to the daily workings of a jointly run factory complex near the border.


North Korea has used that formal channel in recent months to arrange military meetings and logisitics for receiving aid donations and setting up reunions of separated Korean families.


The highest-level talks between the two countries, including summit meetings in 2000 and 2007, are usually set up after months of quiet negotiations between the two governments.


Wednesday's invitation came in a news story issued late at night by its state news agency. The story cited unnamed "government, political parties and organizations" as "courteously" proposing a "wide-ranging dialogue."


"We call for an unconditional and early opening of talks between the authorities having real power and responsibility, in particular," the statement said. It added, "We are willing to meet anyone anytime and anywhere, letting bygones be bygones, if he or she is willing to go hands in hands with us."


North Korea in recent months has also offered through its media to talk to South Korea and the U.S. in the six-nation diplomatic process that has previously been focused on nuclear disarmament. Seoul and Washington have refused to let that process—which also involves China, Japan and Russia—to be expanded to issues not related to denuclearization.


Instead, South Korea and the U.S. have insisted that North Korea use regular diplomatic channels in communication and give assurances that sitting down at a table for talks won't be a waste of time.


Both countries have been looking for a way to resume formal discussions with North Korea. The U.S. special representative for North Korea, Stephen Bosworth, visited Seoul earlier Wednesday to coordinate outreach to Pyongyang.


He said the U.S. is ready for "serious negotiations." Asked afterward if the U.S. was putting pressure on South Korea to talk to Pyongyang, Mr. Bosworth said, "Never."
 

Akubra

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Neither the ROK or the USA will engage in one on one talks with the DPRK if they can possibly avoid it as doing so would indicate a recognition that the DPRK is an equal to the other party.
 

Colpy

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Neither the ROK or the USA will engage in one on one talks with the DPRK if they can possibly avoid it as doing so would indicate a recognition that the DPRK is an equal to the other party.

The DPRK has the WORST human rights record on earth, and has repeatedly attacked the South, killing its citizens.

i wouldn't talk to them either.

Some people simply have no standards... :)
 

Akubra

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The DPRK has the WORST human rights record on earth, and has repeatedly attacked the South, killing its citizens.

i wouldn't talk to them either.

Some people simply have no standards... :)

It is difficult to say the DPRK has the works human rights record on earth, true people are put in prison without trial, people are reportedly tortured, people are executed by the state. Now what else is it that you object to?

Oh thats right, they also have been known to attack other countries and kill people living there.
 

dumpthemonarchy

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Talking to NK is pointless, in addition to being a human rights violator of the worst sort, while they got billions from SK, they built nukes. They want everything for nothing and the mass of NKs suffer greatly. The sooner the peninsula is united, the better.
 

Cannuck

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It is difficult to say the DPRK has the works human rights record on earth, true people are put in prison without trial, people are reportedly tortured, people are executed by the state. Now what else is it that you object to?

Oh thats right, they also have been known to attack other countries and kill people living there.

They don't deny it though. That makes them them the worst. NK's bad...N'Kay.
 

Colpy

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It is difficult to say the DPRK has the works human rights record on earth, true people are put in prison without trial, people are reportedly tortured, people are executed by the state. Now what else is it that you object to?

Oh thats right, they also have been known to attack other countries and kill people living there.

Not difficult at all, if you can see past the end of your nose.

North Korea: The World's Greatest Human Rights Tragedy Can No Longer Be Ignored
 

Akubra

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Talking to NK is pointless, in addition to being a human rights violator of the worst sort, while they got billions from SK, they built nukes.
Yes, human rights in the DPRK are very poor but no one knows just how bad they are and there are other countries that mistreat their citizens, prison without trial, torture, public executions, discrimination against women, etc etc, but I dont see anyone campaigning agaist those countries.

They want everything for nothing and the mass of NKs suffer greatly.
Well, no they dont, part of the reason for the present state of affairs in the north has been the attempt at self reliance and the mass of NKs suffer for various reasons:

One of the reasions is the chronic lack of electricity, they were addressing that with building graphite moderated power stations but the West negotiated them out of that instead promising to build LWRs and supply fuel oil for the delapidated thermal stations in the mean time. The deal was that Pyongyang would freeze all developement on the graphite moderated reactors and seal the fuel under international inspection while the new stations were being built. Meanwhile the thermal stations would be nursed along on supplies of fuel oil.

This was an extremely good deal for the North Koreans and they were careful to keep to their side of the bargain, the reactors were shut down and the fuel sealed. The agreement was made in 1994 and the whole programme called the KEDO project, several countries saw the worth of this and contributed.

By 2000 no progress had been made on the new power stations and America persuaded the other partners to stop the oil supplies. With the project defunct North Korea unsealed the fuel and that is where we are now.

No electricity does not mean just no TV to watch, no electricity means no irrigation pumps for the rice fields, no electricity means no power for the machinery at the coal mines, no electricity and no coal mean no fertilizer production from ther factories and even less food produced. No electricity means no trains for transport and of course no fuel means no road transport either.

No fuel oil for the thermal stations also means no waste heat for the extensive green houses to be seen around Pyongyang (I have been there, and not as a 'tourist'), no waste heat from the thermal stations also means no heating for many public and residential buildings in Pyongyang and other cities. Winter temperatures in South Korea are very cold.

The climate is not good for food production at the best of times and North Korea is not immune to the occasional flood etc which does not help matters.

On top of all that the ever tightening 'sanctions' imposed by the west hurt the poorest members of society the most and just as (hundreds of?) thousands died as the result of sanctions against Iraq we can be assured a great many die in North Korea as a result of western imposed sanctions.

[quoteo]The sooner the peninsula is united, the better.
Now that is an interesting comment and gives one pause to consider how the peninsula got divided in the first place.

Korea had been occupied by the Japanese since more than 100 years ago and they were not benevolent towards the population, Korea took no part in WWII but at the end of the war "someone" decided to divide Korea between US and USSR administration while elections were prepared.

The Russians put Koreans in charge of their sector and the US kept much of the existing Japanese imposed administration in the south and installed Sigmund Rhee as President. Although ROK is now a prosperous and moderately peaceful country it has not always been that way as the first few decades after WWII were marked by civil unrest, corruption (Rhee is alleged to have got away with billions before escaping to Hawaii) and massacres of the people.

Elections never happened and we can easily understand why: Prior to WWII a very significant opposition to Japanese occupation came from communist groups (which is what Kin Il Sung was reputed to be a member of) and anyone campaigning under a 'communist' banner would surely have walked in under any free election, now we couldnt have that now could we? So the country stays divided.

They don't deny it though. That makes them them the worst. NK's bad...N'Kay.

Yes, human right are bad in North Korea, so what do you suggest to improve this? A bit of "shock and awe" to kill all those above ground maybe?

Not difficult at all, if you can see past the end of your nose.

North Korea: The World's Greatest Human Rights Tragedy Can No Longer Be Ignored

See my post to DumpTheMonarchy.
 

lone wolf

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No need for "shock and awe".... Try a weapons drop - just some light stuff - and see what hungry people in possession of a bit of power might do. If the cake doesn't rise, there's no need for another....
 

Akubra

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Talking to NK is pointless, in addition to being a human rights violator of the worst sort, while they got billions from SK, they built nukes. Now that is an interesting comment and gives one pause to consider how the peninsula got divided in the first place.

Korea had been occupied by the Japanese since more than 100 years ago and they were not benevolent towards the population, Korea took no part in WWII but at the end of the war "someone" decided to divide Korea between US and USSR administration while elections were prepared.

The Russians put Koreans in charge of their sector and the US kept much of the existing Japanese imposed administration in the south and installed Sigmund Rhee as President. Although ROK is now a prosperous and moderately peaceful country it has not always been that way as the first few decades after WWII were marked by civil unrest, corruption (Rhee is alleged to have got away with billions before escaping to Hawaii) and massacres of the people.

Elections never happened and we can easily understand why: Prior to WWII a very significant opposition to Japanese occupation came from communist groups (which is what Kin Il Sung was reputed to be a member of) and anyone campaigning under a 'communist' banner would surely have walked in under any free election, now we couldnt have that now could we? So the country stays divided.



Yes, human right are bad in North Korea, so what do you suggest to improve this? A bit of "shock and awe" to kill all those above ground maybe?



See my post to DumpTheMonarchy.
No need for "shock and awe".... Try a weapons drop - just some light stuff - and see what hungry people in possession of a bit of power might do. If the cake doesn't rise, there's no need for another....

I think you misunderstand the resolve of the people of the DPRK. Almost two decades ago someone thought that if the population could be starved through sanctions and isolation they would rise up and that would be the end of the story.
 

Akubra

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What is their resolve? How well are they able to rise?
I expect their resolve is to never again be under the heel of foreigners. I doubt they have more than pointed sticks to make any uprising by force, of course starving them does not make them stronger.

The way forward on this is to engage meaningfully with the Pyongyang government. KEDO showed the potential for this but it is my opinion KEDO was deliberately allowed to fail which not only betrayed the people of North Korea but all the 'minor' parties of KEDO too.
 

lone wolf

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I expect their resolve is to never again be under the heel of foreigners. I doubt they have more than pointed sticks to make any uprising by force, of course starving them does not make them stronger.

The way forward on this is to engage meaningfully with the Pyongyang government. KEDO showed the potential for this but it is my opinion KEDO was deliberately allowed to fail which not only betrayed the people of North Korea but all the 'minor' parties of KEDO too.


Under whose heel has North Korea been? Since the cease-fire, for the most part, it's been one piece of Jung or another in charge. In my own humble opinion, there is probably enough back room discontent and underground malice seething among the people that just a little spark would be the start of a very big fire. If it is the resolve of the people to never be under another heel, it is those very same people who best fight their own battle.

If not, and they're armed to the teeth, all you've really added is a few more old hunting rifles....
 

Colpy

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I expect their resolve is to never again be under the heel of foreigners. I doubt they have more than pointed sticks to make any uprising by force, of course starving them does not make them stronger.

The way forward on this is to engage meaningfully with the Pyongyang government. KEDO showed the potential for this but it is my opinion KEDO was deliberately allowed to fail which not only betrayed the people of North Korea but all the 'minor' parties of KEDO too.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAJHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You mean like the South, a free nation enjoying great prosperity, is "under the heel of foreigners".

unbelievable.

They tried "meaningful dialogue".....you might as well try to have "meaningful dialogue" with your ****ing toaster........the South poured billions into the North, and aid flowed freely....only to have that bunch of Stalinist nutjobs sink more cash into nuclear development and use the food aid as a weapon, denying it to places that might be less than completely robotic in their loyalty.

My personal opinion is that it would be best to stomp the North Korean state ASAP. Their nuclear program is not going away, you can't bribe their leaders into sanity, so it is best to rid the world of them before their nuclear and missile technology improves, and/or they spread the knowledge to a bunch of other nutjobs........

The spoiler is our friends and allies in the South, who would suffer severe casualties. But we MUST back them to the hilt in whatever THEY decide to do.

If you will excuse my waxing poetic, the tree of liberty is always watered with blood.

(apologies to Thomas Jefferson)
 

wulfie68

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I expect their resolve is to never again be under the heel of foreigners. I doubt they have more than pointed sticks to make any uprising by force, of course starving them does not make them stronger.

The way forward on this is to engage meaningfully with the Pyongyang government. KEDO showed the potential for this but it is my opinion KEDO was deliberately allowed to fail which not only betrayed the people of North Korea but all the 'minor' parties of KEDO too.

And how does one "meaningfully engage with the Pyongyang government"? The only negotiations to date that the North has been satisfied with were ones in which the US, Japan, China and the South tried to buy them off their militancy with economic aid and other concessions. Even those "negotiations" end up coming to naught the next time Kim Jong Il decides he wants something more/else. No other country on the planet consistently aggressively postures and threatens war as often as the North Koreans and attempts to mollify them have not worked. Its time to isolate and ignore them entirely and if they want to resume armed conflict, to eliminate them.
 

Akubra

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Under whose heel has North Korea been? ....
The were under the heel of the Japanese for almost 50 years and have no intention of allowing anyone else to dictate how they should live.

And how does one "meaningfully engage with the Pyongyang government"?
Turn the clock back to 1994 and take a look around.

In our dealings with Pyongyang, and there is no need for me to tell you what they were, we found them easy to deal with. If the proposal is to their advantage they will accept and they will carry out their side of the agreement.


The only negotiations to date that the North has been satisfied with were ones in which the US, Japan, China and the South tried to buy them off their militancy with economic aid and other concessions. Even those "negotiations" end up coming to naught the next time Kim Jong Il decides he wants something more/else.
In the case of the failed KEDO programme and the associated nuclear issues it was the West that failed to deliver. The DPRK kept their side of the deal for 6 years or so before giving up on it.




No other country on the planet consistently aggressively postures and threatens war as often as the North Koreans and attempts to mollify them have not worked.
I think you will find it is the USA that most frequently threatens war to get what they want and when they dont get it they follow through.[/quote]

Its time to isolate and ignore them entirely and if they want to resume armed conflict, to eliminate them.
North Korea you mean? Isolation has been given a fair chance and has not succeeded and recent armed conflicts where countries of the west have been involved do not give incouragement of a satisfactory outcome.
 

Colpy

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The were under the heel of the Japanese for almost 50 years and have no intention of allowing anyone else to dictate how they should live.

Actually, it was 40 years, from 1905 to 1945.....and during much of that time (including throughout the First World War) Japan was an active ally of Britain and the United States (and Canada)

South Korea was as well, but the South is sane, and has recognized the new Japan, under the constitution written for them by General MacArthur, is a liberal democratic state no longer interested in imperialism.........the South is not ground under anyone's heel........

Your point is made: the North is ignorant, insane, and dangerously zenophobic....thanks to its lunatic leaders.
 

lone wolf

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The were under the heel of the Japanese for almost 50 years and have no intention of allowing anyone else to dictate how they should live.

How many North Koreans would remember anything more than the heels of their own leaders? 1945 was a long time ago - an entire lifetime to many people. Do you think people are really as uniformly loyal as they're projected to be?
 

Akubra

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. Do you think people are really as uniformly loyal as they're projected to be?

Too well controlled (i.e. scared) to be otherwise.

There was a story told, but there is no way of verifying this. In one of the cities when the electricity failed completely the factory workers were told to go home and wait and many of them did exactly that, starving to death behind the locked doors of their workers' appartments.

the North is ignorant, insane, and dangerously zenophobic....thanks to its lunatic leaders.

The principal issue remains, what is to be done about the situation in the north. Talk to them as they offered or maybe you have a better alternative.