how far could you possibly go to try and stop people from smoking?

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
2,116
3
38
Spruce Grove, Alberta
would you say that you should be allowed to deny people health coverage if you are a smoker?

make them illegal and if you're caught with smokes you can get a major fine?

have hard policies at the border and look for all smokes and immediately take them and burn em? destroy em?
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
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Toronto
As long as smokers tax dollars are used for health care the government has no right to deny them coverage.

Well, one needs only to look at how successful prohibition was to conclude that banning things doesn't make them go away.

The border would be continually clogged if border guards were inspecting every car for cigarettes.

We don't need any more of a nanny state then we already have, let people live their lives and leave the government out of their business.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
ya but the US has other pre existing conditions that they use to deny them Health coverage.. so why can't that be another?

The US doesn't have government run health care, most people have to pay for their insurance out of pocket and the insurers can deny you coverage for various reasons, opposed to Canada where you pay for the coverage regardless, health care for "all".
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
would you say that you should be allowed to deny people health coverage if you are a smoker?

That won't stop smokers and if you do that to smokers then you have to do it to people into extreme sports, racing, eat too much or do other things you or I may not approve of that put a burden on society..... so that's not an option.

make them illegal and if you're caught with smokes you can get a major fine?

Has that worked for those who smoke marijuana or use any other drugs?

Nope

have hard policies at the border and look for all smokes and immediately take them and burn em? destroy em?

That won't work either..... see above question about how any of this has worked against drugs.

ya but the US has other pre existing conditions that they use to deny them Health coverage.. so why can't that be another?

You want to base our health system on what the US does in theirs? :-?
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
2,116
3
38
Spruce Grove, Alberta
That won't stop smokers and if you do that to smokers then you have to do it to people into extreme sports, racing, eat too much or do other things you or I may not approve of that put a burden on society..... so that's not an option.

ya but smoking is a known health risk, factual evidence that shows it's dangerous to you and to others around you.

Extreme Sports has no proven scientific facts about it.

eating too much is genetic for some people...
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
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Nakusp, BC
ya but smoking is a known health risk, factual evidence that shows it's dangerous to you and to others around you.

Extreme Sports has no proven scientific facts about it.

eating too much is genetic for some people...
A lot of people in extreme sports get maimed and killed every year. What proof do you want that it can be detrimental to your well being and a drain on the medical system?
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
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48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
well, maybe then they could double your health premiums for smokers?

If any of your ideas would actually work, they probably would have been implemented years ago..... but so long as smoking is legal, you can not discriminate the way you are against smokers doing what they're legally allowed to do.

And since making smoking illegal isn't going to work or solve anything either, there's no chance of that happening....

Perhaps the best solution is to worry about your own problems and let people do whatever the hell they want with their own lives and their own bodies.

There's more important things in life to worry about then to try and be some over-bearing mother to everybody as if you know best.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
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Location, Location
would you say that you should be allowed to deny people health coverage if you are a smoker?

To answer your question as written, no, if I were a smoker, I should not be allowed to deny people health coverage.

I don't understand why my smoking or non smoking status should have anything to do with whether or not other people have health coverage.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
but I know best! :p

joking..

Well, I guess they just need to make it tougher to smoke where we live.

Not very far, unless it's bothering you directly physically (like depriving you of oxygen) it comes under the heading of mind your own business. Suggesting doesn't work, begging doesn't work, threatening doesn't work. :smile:
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
but I know best! :p

joking..

Well, I guess they just need to make it tougher to smoke where we live.

I think they've taken it about as far as they can go here. If you don't want to be around smoke, you absolutely never have to be, short of walking past a bit hanging in the open air. And unless you're a hysterical ninny, that does you no harm. The only steps after this are serious infringements on personal liberty.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
ya but smoking is a known health risk, factual evidence that shows it's dangerous to you and to others around you.

So what?

So's driving a car, so's bungee jumping and sky diving.... so's sex, so's eating too much or not eating enough healthy things..... if we went around banning or trying to control what everybody is allowed to do and what they're not allowed to do, nobody would even be able to take a dump without being hauled off to jail, because no matter what, there's always going to be someone bickering about what someone else is doing as if it somehow impacts their lives...... and flagging around little nuggets and stats to show whatever harm they may do.

Extreme Sports has no proven scientific facts about it.

Really?

It's not well known or proven that if your parachute doesn't open and you plummet to your death or smack into a tree which seriously cripples you for the rest of your life..... that that's not harmful?

If riding a bike hasn't been proven to have risks of injury or death, would it be law right now that we all should be wearing helmets to protect our heads?

Seat belts?

How about licenses and age restrictions being required to ensure proper training and maturity to help reduce the known dangers?

Smoking has laws, restrictions and age requirements too..... what more do you want?

eating too much is genetic for some people...

Excuses..... they're still a burden on our health care system, so we should toss them in jail, fine them and cut off all medical coverage..... it's only fair.

I suppose you'll argue that it's not their fault they eat so much because it's in their genetics...... well it's not the smoker's fault for smoking and continuing to smoke because they're addicted and the government has already endorsed the drugs they bought that made them addicted.

Besides..... just because you smoke tobacco, that is not any means of guarantee that you will contract cancer, or get any other form of illness that will be a burden to the medical system.

If you smoked for 50+ years.... yeah there's probably a chance..... but someone who smoked for only a year, or 5 or maybe even 10 years and who decided to quit all on their own, may never get any illness relating to their smoking...... someone who smoked all their lives may never get cancer or other illness.

Proof?

Oldest Living People Continue To Smoke While Non-Smokers Die Younger
http://ezinearticles.com/?Oldest-Li...Smoke-While-Non-Smokers-Die-Younger&id=936843

Smoking is supposed to kill people. What I find is rather odd is the number of smokers who outlive non-smokers. The average life expectancy for most first world countries is around 75-80 years. Yet smokers live longer than this average.

Robert Charlton was 92 in November of 2006 and had been smoking since the age of 10. He outlived Levi Celeio from the Philippines who died at 91, having smoked all his life. Cigarettes also got the better of the Queen Mother of Elizabeth II when she died at 101 after being a smoker most of her life. George Burn is renown for having smoked cigars until he was 100 years old, and because of this Milton Berle refused to give up smoking; unfortunately he died of cancer of the colon at 93yrs. Hollywood director Billy Wilder died at 95yrs, having been a smoker all his life........

Funny..... if all of what you say is true towards the evils of smoking.... everybody who smokes should die well before they turn 50.

The problem is that it depends on what you smoke, how often you smoke and for how long you smoke...... and because of that, branding every smoker as being the same and expecting them all to end up having the same fate is inaccurate and a narrow perspective.
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
2,116
3
38
Spruce Grove, Alberta
yes but look at all the movie stars and other stars that did die from lung cancer or other cancers because they smoked? still largely outweighs the ones that did live long!

I could easily look up a list.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I think they've taken it about as far as they can go here. If you don't want to be around smoke, you absolutely never have to be, short of walking past a bit hanging in the open air. And unless you're a hysterical ninny, that does you no harm. The only steps after this are serious infringements on personal liberty.

I actually had my very first experience with one of those ninnys last week.

I was at the bus stop waiting to go to work, finishing up my smoke..... they passed a law around here they you're not no longer allowed to smoke in the shelters or the stop itself, so I was about well away from the shelter, about 5 feet away from the nearest seat...... about 30 feet away from the stop was a woman standing in the parking lot of the gas station giving me dirty looks and trying to mouth something. She put her fingers to her lips like she wanted to bum a smoke, so I took my ear buds from my ears and walked towards her in order to understand wtf she was going on about. A guy closer to her didn't know what was going on either and walked towards her to see who she was talking to.

I got up towards her and said I couldn't hear what she was saying..... she replies with a snooty attitude, "You can't smoke at bus stops anymore, it's against the law."

I looked at her, I looked back at where I was standing, looked back at her and said, "I'm not even at the friggin bus stop, I was all the way over there." shook my head and walked back to where I was.

The funny thing was that due to her bitching, I had to stand right beside her to talk to her with my lit cigarette in my hand right under her nose, when where I was before, I was some 30 feet away from her with the wind blowing in the other direction. The other guy who wasn't smoking just shook his head and went back to the shelter.

Meanwhile I finished my smoke a few seconds later and looked back over to where she was, and there she was still standing by herself like an idiot with her hood wrapped around her face as if I was smoking anthrax or something radioactive, let alone 2nd hand smoke ever reaching her before evaporating.

The real kicker was before the bus showed up, another guy who looked like he was in construction crossed the road and made his way to the stop while puffing away on a cigarette..... and he didn't even have the courtesy I showed and he just strolled inside the shelter, puffing away and blowing it all over the place, then went back out of the shelter and stood right where the bus stops, puffing away and blowing it everywhere.

I turned to look at her and thought to myself, "Well.... what are you going to do about that b*tch?"

Sorry to break the news to her, but Metro Transit doesn't own the whole damn sidewalk and neither does she...... so I'll stand right outside of the bus stop and smoke as many damn cigarettes as I damn well please..... and she can kiss my arse blue.

She looked to be in her mid-60's, so I imagine she was exposed to a hell of a lot worse then my 2nd hand smoke from 30 feet away that was blowing in the opposite direction from where she was standing.

yes but look at all the movie stars and other stars that did die from lung cancer or other cancers because they smoked? still largely outweighs the ones that did live long!

I could easily look up a list.

You don't have to, since I just provided you one of celebrities and well known people who smoked and lived quite a long age.

George Burns..... the Queen Mother..... etc.

If you wish, do a search for "Oldest Living Smoker" and you'll see a number of results showing people ranging from their 90's, to somewhere around 114.
 

Totterman

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1
0
1
FINLAND
smoking is bad for our health. so try to throw it away
Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Dear friend,I do smoke myself,started at age (oh,forgive me but my english spelling and grammar is far from good,but I am Finnish,and have learned it all by myself) 15,now I am 50. I did once try,for 6 hours. But how far would I go? God gave us free choise,and I don't think that this is what we mean by free choise,but I also saw my grandfather,and old officer and gentleman,businessman and diplomat,try to hide his smoking from my granny,their raised me,and he had been told by the doctor to stop,after two heart-attacs,but he could not. And I,only 11,saw how he suffered,and he died,and his last request wos to get a cigarett. I would say that let those who smoke,smoke,those who can stop,stop,and those who not smoke,don't start. It is always best to walk in the middle of the narrow path,that way You will not fall of so easy.
Blessings,
Berndt Tötterman
ESPOO
FINLAND
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
So Chiliagon, by your logic, Gays or Blacks shouldn't be afforded the same healthcare because of higher rates of HIV and other STDs? Natives shouldn't get healthcare because of their higher rates of alcoholism? Should skiers/snowboarders be denied because they have a higher risk of sports-related injuries?

Where does it stop?

Should men be denied healthcare because they get prostate cancer?
Should women be denied because they get breast cancer?
 

Starscream

Electoral Member
May 23, 2008
201
2
18
Somewhere, someplace
I guess this fits into this thread.

I'm not sure if everyone else hear remembers this little incident on the east coast. I don't recall if it was in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick but it goes like this. A surgeon refused to perform surgery on a man's leg because the man is a smoker, and will only do the operation if he quit smoking. The man said he can't quit because he is a heavy smoker. I don't remember what happened afterward, if the surgeon finally bent and did the operation or the man went to some other doctor.