Remembrance Day

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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anonymous

I think that Remembrance Day glorifies war. Some say that Remembrance Day is a time when we get to celebrate our freedom, a freedom hard-won by the brave veterans who fought and died to ensure it for us. Only, that’s a pretty simple story. The story is certainly warm and fuzzy and full of sentimentality, and so being it sticks, and is swallowed, and can be easily regurgitated for others to swallow.

However, the slogans of remembrance ignore the reasons for war and the horrific results. They ignore the profit making and the deal hatching that keeps wars going, and that often starts them in the first place. (Would war exist if it were not profitable?) The slogans, they also ignore the reality that it's a nation’s poor who fight its wars - and only against another nation’s poor. (Would war exist if it was fought by those who declare it?) And it ignores the reality that wars never seem to bring about peace; that they only seem to ever lay the groundwork for further wars. (Violence sets a precedent for more violence.)

And what of the unintended victims, the countless civilians caught in the crossfire; these people aren‘t recognised or remembered with great memorial (I suppose that dead babies muddy the waters of valour and victory.)

I think that if you are commemorating killers, you should commemorate them all. If we’re remembering those that killed (or helped kill, or died trying) then it only makes sense to celebrate all of the folk who do the very same. After all, the bloke born in Manchester, had he been born in Munich, would have answered his nation’s call to arms all the same. No? And furthermore, much has been said in recent years of the militant martyr, dying for his cause, and the evil of his ways; but, is the violent religious fanatic not exactly the same as any First or Second World War volunteer, the one we are asked to remember?
Aren’t they precisely the same as any of the thousands of kids who bought into the propaganda campaign hatched by their government, who answered the call to defend their nation under threat, who went to fight for what was right and good and just? Is today’s suicide bomber all that different from the sixteen year old who went off to a land he did not know, to kill an enemy he had never seen, for a reason he could not articulate but to recite the line on the poster he’d read in his local newspaper, or plastered on his church wall? …We tell him of the greater good; we give him all manner of righteous reason; we train him not to think for himself; we show him how to kill, and we give him the tools to do it; we offer him camaraderie, and a sense of belonging; we tell him that he is loved and that in death he will find peace; and then we drop him off on some distant shore to take as many lives as he can… Where is the difference? I don't see it.

In my mind, you can't remember the horrible cost of war and suggest that it is the worst of all evils, while at the very same time label all the brave souls who fought as heroes and recount the great battles and celebrate our victory; and yet, that's just what we do. This is why we throw "freedom" in there to smooth it all over and diffuse any questioning. "Well, it was the worst thing ever, and we'd never do it again, but it had to be done for our freedom." Nobody can argue against "freedom." Only, that's how we have justified every war in modern history, for the Boer war on...
This is what all the brave boys over in Iraq and Afghanistan believe they're up to: they're insuring their own freedom and the freedom of the nation they occupy.

I think we need to declare war as either a good thing, or bad thing, and we should stick with it. I think that it can be just that clear cut: you're either committed to peace or you're making excuses to justify war... Bush was right when he said, "You're either with us or against us."

The trouble with that statement, and what got everyone so upset, is that it forces whole nations to be honest. Nations, and individuals, don't like to be truly honest, and seldom are, because it exposes ones beliefs and intentions. Playing both sides, as we most often do, gives us an escape route, a defence, and allows us to benefit regardless of the outcome. This kind of bifurcated thinking is insane.

Canada, for instance, can't officially be against the war in Iraq AND support the American war machine, while also sending ships, personnel, and logistics equipment to the Persian Gulf -- but, of course, that's exactly what we do.

You can't sign a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, nuclear-test-ban treaty AND export most of the world's uranium; however, that's just the game we like to play. This is hypocrisy, at best. Unfortunately, this is the juggling act were are always asked to make, the partitioning of our brains to allow for psychotic behaviour to go ahead. And this is how this psychosis becomes normalized, indistinguishable from "normal" behaviour.

There is wrong and right. War or peace? It will mean that we can't preach peace while making war, and it may mean that you live in a world where killing someone because they disagree with you, or because they have something you want, is not okay... Can you handle it?

I want to celebrate a day when war was averted: a day when brave, intelligent, thoughtful people, despite all odds, stood in the way of the war machine. And I want every school child to learn about it, and all of its nuances. And I want them to learn how difficult the struggles were to prevent war, and how the people involved are all heroes for having saved millions of lives. And I want them to learn about how the world is a safer, better, more sane place for having not fought a war. And I want them all to learn about all the sacrifices that were made for this commitment to peace. And I want there to be built a park, in every city, with a monument at its center, acknowledging the tremendous valour and dignity, and the horrendous simplicity and narrow-mindedness that is violence. And then I want a thousand movies to be made to commemorate the people and places of significance… for that would be something to remember.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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anonymous is wrong.

Wars are not as black and white as they used to be but still, remembering men and women who's lives were cut short while fighting for us is what this day is about. Remembrance Day is about remembering those lives that will never know another sunrise. I don't care what war they died in, just that they were ordered to fight and they went, and died doing so. Remembrance Day is for all soldiers who died in war regardless of their age. We should never forget them.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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anonymous is wrong.

Wars are not as black and white as they used to be but still, remembering men and women who's lives were cut short while fighting for us is what this day is about. Remembrance Day is about remembering those lives that will never know another sunrise. I don't care what war they died in, just that they were ordered to fight and they went, and died doing so. Remembrance Day is for all soldiers who died in war regardless of their age. We should never forget them.

And for the ones who returned albeit,some of them less than whole.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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anonymous

I think that Remembrance Day glorifies war.

That, I think, depends on how you personally see it.

Me, I see Remembrance Day as a time to quietly remember those who died in war. I don't see it as a time to glorify war, it's a time to think of the lives lost, damaged, and wasted.

It's a sad time, to reflect on what it costs our society.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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And for the ones who returned albeit,some of them less than whole.

You're right.
What really brings that out is seeing the older soldiers in the Remembrance Day parade. I remember when there were thousands of WW2 vets and hundreds of WW1 vets in the parade. I've watched the WW1 veterans numbers dwindle to nothing. This is the second or third year there have been no soldiers from WW1. The WW2 vets are now in their eighties and the Korean war vets are getting older too.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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I was wrong. There is still a Canadian WW1 vet living but he probably won't be in the parade.

Only one Canadian veteran from the First World War is still alive — John Babcock, 109, who was born on an Ontario farm and lives in the United States.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
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Remembrance Day doesn't glorify war. It's just a day to remember our war dead and their families, in wars stretching back almost a century.

Whether the wars are "just" or "unjust" wars - and wars such as WWI, WWII, the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan are all "just" wars fighting for freedom and democracy for people against evil tyrants such as Kaiser Bill, Hitler, Galtieri, Saddam and the Taliban - it is important we remember those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. And, since 2001, 411 British miliary personnel have given their lives in two wars so far.

We don't want to end up like those sick Scottish football fans at the weekend who protested against Remembrance Sunday. There was a minute's silence at all football grounds across the UK at the start of each match to mark Remembrance Sunday. Some fans of Scottish team Glasgow Celtic - whose fans are mainly Catholics, just as Protestants support their rivals Glasgow Rangers - decided to wait outside the stadium and sing sickening Irish republican songs whilst the minute's silence was observed, despite the fact that Britain and Irish republican terrorists such as the IRA have been at peace since 1994. Last year, these same Celtic fans protested against the wearing of the poppy. Many of these scumbags would have had parents or grandparents who fought in the World Wars. And Glasgow Celtic is a team which has a desire to leave the Scottish football league and play in the English Premiership to earn more money. But the English will not accept any Scottish team if they continue with their sickening sectarian, Irish republican chants.
 
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Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Lower Mainland, BC
Lest we forget..

God of our fathers, known of old--
Lord of our far-flung battle line--
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

The tumult and the shouting dies--
The Captains and the Kings depart--
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

Far-called our navies melt away--
On dune and headland sinks the fire--
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe--
Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
Or lesser breeds without the Law--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard--
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding calls not Thee to guard.
For frantic boast and foolish word,
Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!
Amen.
 
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wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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Calgary, AB
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them

- Laurence Binyon

I don't think of this as a day for glorifying war, but as others have stated, as a day for honouring the sacrifices of those who do pay the price for them. Contrary to what the JBee's of the world think, I'm enough of a realist to understand wars only need the consent of one party to start and then responses of the one attacked are limited: do you accept a beating/subservience/possible extinction or do you respond in kind? Its not a nice choice, or a feel good one. But the alternative is far worse.

Thank you to our veterans for not making us face that alternative.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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California
I think it is the very least a nation can do is to honor its fallen and the still living veterans who have fought for the safety of the people of the nation.

Talk with some veterans - you will understand there is no glory as we know it in war and they are the ones who know the real truth of the horror it can be even far in the future for some who are permanently maimed both in mind, body and spirit.

I hope the tradition will serve as a reminder to those of us who have never been
asked to serve or volunteer to serve, we owe our freedoms in so many ways to the people who were willing - strangers, some of us selfish strangers.

There is only one voice to speak for war. Those who were engaged.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them

- Laurence Binyon

I don't think of this as a day for glorifying war, but as others have stated, as a day for honouring the sacrifices of those who do pay the price for them. Contrary to what the JBee's of the world think, I'm enough of a realist to understand wars only need the consent of one party to start and then responses of the one attacked are limited: do you accept a beating/subservience/possible extinction or do you respond in kind? Its not a nice choice, or a feel good one. But the alternative is far worse.

Thank you to our veterans for not making us face that alternative.

Good post wulfie68, some very good points.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
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dead on jbee..... but the majority will still glorify the baby killers, and ignore the babies killed.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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63
Someone who is anti-Remembrance Day as we know it is likely one who would argue we shouldn't have fought Hitler. That no war should ever be fought and none should've been fought. Probably argue that the Holocaust never existed etc. When most of us remember the fallen we aren't honouring GWB. Good people have lost lives to good causes. Good people have lost lives to bad causes. Start a day of peaceful Remembrance if you wish but there is nothing to debate. Honour what you believe and others will honour what they believe.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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I think it is the very least a nation can do is to honor its fallen and the still living veterans who have fought for the safety of the people of the nation.

Talk with some veterans - you will understand there is no glory as we know it in war and they are the ones who know the real truth of the horror it can be even far in the future for some who are permanently maimed both in mind, body and spirit.

I hope the tradition will serve as a reminder to those of us who have never been
asked to serve or volunteer to serve, we owe our freedoms in so many ways to the people who were willing - strangers, some of us selfish strangers.

There is only one voice to speak for war. Those who were engaged.

You are right in every point Curiosity. Only those who went through it the true horrors of war. I was in the military but never in a war. To this day I don't know what I would have felt if a war had started while I was in the air force.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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It is not properly Remembrance Day without this poem:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial][FONT=Verdana,Arial]"In Flanders Fields" remains one of the most memorable war poems ever written. It is recited each year at Remembrance Day ceremonies throughout Canada.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial][FONT=Verdana,Arial]
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial][FONT=Verdana,Arial]We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial][FONT=Verdana,Arial]Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
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Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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California
Juan

I always wonder what inner switch gets turned on for someone to sign up for service - active or inactive - and how those who became POWs during war emerged
still sane.

How large companies of ground fighters emerged alive but with horror forever etched into their brains and how could they ever live among humans again in a
normal life....

All these things make me wonder if there are special humans who become warriors
or are all or any of us capable of finding an inner strength to withstand the most
terrible of times for ourselves and see it through.

Perhaps few of us are ever tested to our fullest strength. Maybe that is a good thing. As my mother and sisters always remind me - we humans are born through the pain of another - the mother who does the hard work of labor... so perhaps
we never have to test our ultimate control.

Even as much as I badgered members of my family to describe things - I learned nothing because I could not take my head to some of the places they visited - in body and spirit and I think in semi-madness or out of mind strength too.

Thank you as always for your service too Juan...