People giving forgiveness with no right to do so

[thomaska]

I'm not trying to make this thread into a gun vs. anti-gun thing so with that being said...

With the latest rash of shootings at malls and schools here in the States, I have some questions about people offering forgiveness to the perpetrators of the crimes.

Example: After both the Omaha NE, mall shootings, and the church shootings, right here in my back yard, Denver, there has been no shortage of pimply faced douchebags, usually friends of the shooter, saying that they forgive their friend for the atrocities they commited.

My thoughts on that? How dare they? Who the hell are they to forgive these little bastards when it wasn't any of their families or friends who were murdered?

Has society degenerated to the point that not only are these mass murders expected, but are also condoned?

"Oh, he had family issues"
"Oh, he had just lost his job"
"Oh, his mommy and daddy made him do his homework instead of letting him go out"


Bull$hit.

I say to hell with the little mass-murderers. They'd better be glad I'm not god, because they'd all spend eternity getting sodomized in hell, by Satan in the guise of John Holmes.

 

[karrie]

People say all sorts of stupid platitudes in times of mourning. I don't chalk their 'forgiveness' up to much more than the typical inane things that get said around funerals and accidents and such.

 

[tracy]

Does it matter if they believe in forgiveness? That is the Christian way, so it doesn't surprise me too much. I don't see it as condoning violence. If you don't want to forgive him you don't have to. I guess I just don't see how it affects you or me.

 

[thomaska]

People say all sorts of stupid platitudes in times of mourning. I don't chalk their 'forgiveness' up to much more than the typical inane things that get said around funerals and accidents and such.

You could be right, they could just be babbling on inanely.

But if you had heard some of the interviews that have been done, you'd probably be mad at the dismissive attitude some of the people have had, all because the shooter had been having a bad time.

 

[thomaska]

Does it matter if they believe in forgiveness? That is the Christian way, so it doesn't surprise me too much. I don't see it as condoning violence. If you don't want to forgive him you don't have to. I guess I just don't see how it affects you or me.

I don't think it matters if they believe in forgiveness.

Let's say Karrie punches you in the face, then I walk up and tell Karrie that I forgive her for punching you. Does that make any sense at all? What did she do to me?

Whether or not said forgiveness is given doesn't effect me. Because once again, nothing happened to me. What pisses me off is that society is beginning to expect the murderers to be forgiven, no matter how much pain and misery they have created.

 

[karrie]

You could be right, they could just be babbling on inanely.

But if you had heard some of the interviews that have been done, you'd probably be mad at the dismissive attitude some of the people have had, all because the shooter had been having a bad time.

I don't know Thomaska. Generally speaking when something like this happens, the situation is highly different for the people who were in contact with the perpetrator. They were 20 times more human and normal to those who knew them, not the monster defined by one moment that we end up seeing. It's not as easy to villify them.

 

[tracy]

I don't think it matters if they believe in forgiveness.

Let's say Karrie punches you in the face, then I walk up and tell Karrie that I forgive her for punching you. Does that make any sense at all? What did she do to me?

Whether or not said forgiveness is given doesn't effect me. Because once again, nothing happened to me. What pisses me off is that society is beginning to expect the murderers to be forgiven, no matter how much pain and misery they have created.

It may not make much sense, but I think those people are just saying they still care about their friend. You could forgive Karrie for punching me and since it would have nothing to do with me, I wouldn't really care. It wouldn't mean I'd have to forgive her or that I'd lost my place as the victim.

I just don't read the same thing into it that you do. I don't think our society is particularly forgiving. We are the country that still has the death penalty. If those shooters weren't already dead, the voices calling for their execution would be deafeningly loud.

 

[karrie]

I don't think it matters if they believe in forgiveness.

Let's say Karrie punches you in the face, then I walk up and tell Karrie that I forgive her for punching you. Does that make any sense at all? What did she do to me?

Whether or not said forgiveness is given doesn't effect me. Because once again, nothing happened to me. What pisses me off is that society is beginning to expect the murderers to be forgiven, no matter how much pain and misery they have created.

The thing is though, that everytime I walk up to someone and punch them in the face, I've disappointed you, and changed your view of me as a person. You DO have a right to forgive me for acting like that, even if it wasn't directed at you and didn't injure you in a direct sense.

 

[thomaska]

The thing is though, that everytime I walk up to someone and punch them in the face, I've disappointed you, and changed your view of me as a person. You DO have a right to forgive me for acting like that, even if it wasn't directed at you and didn't injure you in a direct sense.

I see what you're saying and agree to a point.

But there is a world of difference between forgiveness for popping someone in the face, and popping someone with an AK-47.

At what point, have even the actions of a dearest friend gone beyond the pale? Is there anything that should not be looked past? Rhetorical question, I know...just wondering

 

[karrie]

I see what you're saying and agree to a point.

But there is a world of difference between forgiveness for popping someone in the face, and popping someone with an AK-47.

At what point, have even the actions of a dearest friend gone beyond the pale? Is there anything that should not be looked past? Rhetorical question, I know...just wondering

I think that with my truly dearest friends, there is almost no action that I could not forgive. The key being the difference between forgiving and excusing. If one of my friends did something like this, I might 'forgive' them, but I'd also be the first to advocate prison for it.

 

[shadowshiv]

One thing that I will never be able to forgive are crimes against children.

 

[tracy]

I think the fact that he's dead is probably what makes it possible for them to forgive him so quickly.

 

[MikeyDB]

Thomaska

I don't think you'll find anyone here who'd entertain the idea that there's any "saving-grace" involved in the atrocities that you talk about and the scenarios that have become all too familiar.

When violence becomes a plague, medicine is demanded. Any ideas on how and what can be done?

 

[Colpy]

I'm gonna get all philosophical on the bunch of you.......or theological........

Does not forgiveness first require repentence?

Might be my Baptist upbringing rearing its head, but I see no forgiveness possible unless the "sinner" has asked for it, and has repented of his offense. I doubt the dead shooters repented of anything.

As for their friends "forgiving" them, who gives a ****?

I would take it seriously if a surviving victim offered "forgiveness", or if family members of victims offered forgiveness, but the guy's friends? What have they lost, compared to his victims?

 

[iARTthere4iam]

If one wants to see a true expression of forgiveness and turning the other cheek one only need remember the Amish school massacare. What a horrific act, What pure forgiveness. I know I could never forgive like that. I am not sure it is right to forgive like that. But it is something to consider.

 

[MikeyDB]

Forgiveness is for the victims Colpy not the perpetrator. Certainly there's examples of drug-crazed loonies shooting up a neighborhood over a drug-deal gone bad, but the slaughter that's taking place in our schools is symptom of a greater malaise and that malaise can only be examined in the light of forgiveness. We've know for some time that no strategy of "registration" is going to make an iota of difference, this was a lie perpetuated by the gov to fool people into thinking that gun-violence was the problem when the problems that turn into gun-violence have nothing to do with guns per se.

We have to look at how our society has mismanaged and mis-identified the causal contributors to a terrible situation. If we can't get past our outrage and our anger to see what's happenning we'll never spot the problem. Forgiveness is the only opiate that can still the rage. I'm not saying that forgiveness is an answer, what I am saying is that we have to involve ourselves in a great deal of self-examination before we reach conclusions that leave us impotent and remote from those causal factors.

You know as well as I that the effect of gratuitous violence throughout modern "entertainment" isn't new, only our apathy and apparent willingness to support the entertainment industries who are cashing in on de-sensitization and glorifying chaos can give us a perspective on the situation we see.

It's damn tough to forgive and anger is much much easier.

 

[Nuggler]

If one wants to see a true expression of forgiveness and turning the other cheek one only need remember the Amish school massacare. What a horrific act, What pure forgiveness. I know I could never forgive like that. I am not sure it is right to forgive like that. But it is something to consider.

Yes, caught a few of them on the news, and it really blew me away. I'da been screaming for blood if it had been my kids killed, but there they were, SINCERELY asking for understanding and forgiveness for the perps. Better folks than I for sure.

 

[Niflmir]

Read "Les Miserables" to get an idea of why forgiveness does not require repentance beforehand. Often it is the act of forgiveness that initiates the repentance. When we demand someone behave humanely before we treat them humanely because of past behavior, we are forgetting a very important rule, a golden rule as it were. Instead we insert a rule along the lines of, "Treat others as you think that they would treat you."

 

[thomaska]

Thomaska

I don't think you'll find anyone here who'd entertain the idea that there's any "saving-grace" involved in the atrocities that you talk about and the scenarios that have become all too familiar.

When violence becomes a plague, medicine is demanded. Any ideas on how and what can be done?

Sadly enough, I don't have any ideas on what can be done, so ironically, I am being what I hate most; someone who bitches but offers no solutions.

If you listen to some of the stories about these shooters you will be amazed at the "difficulty" :roll:they experienced in their lives, by which their friends "forgive" their murderous rampages.

Take the little sh*t Matthew here in Denver. One would think that he grew up in poverty, was horribly abused, and was a ticking time-bomb just waiting to go off. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Matthew Murray and his family lived in an affluent part of Denver, and his father is a mega-rich surgeon. So that takes care of poverty...no reports of abuse...takes care of that.

So why did young Matthew decide to murder four people? Because he used to be in the youth with a Mission program at the church and they had kicked him out. So he took a page from the Columbine book, and decided he wanted to be remembered the way the Virginia Tech shooter is remembered, and go out in a blaze of glory.

Anyways, now I'm just getting mad again, and probably not making much sense. But, like you said to Colpy, Forgiveness is for the victims to dole out, not the perp, and certainly not his uninvovled, unobservant friends, who probably view school, and church shootings as no more shocking than getting killed while playing Halo III.

 

[karrie]

I wonder how many of these youths have anti-d's in their system.

The bizarre **** that can start rolling around in your brain on those drugs.... ugh.

If that's all it took to send him into a murderous rampage, I really truly wonder what was wrong up there.