What would your reaction be?


Niflmir
#61
My reaction would be the same as for a recovering alcoholic not wanting to be around me because of my occasional drinking. I would respect their decision and my opinion of them would not change for the worse.

Some of my thoughts on a complicated issue:

I think pedophile is an unnecessary and loaded word. Abductor and rapist capture the action much more vividly. To me a person does not magically gain the ability to consent after making an exact integer number of trips around the sun. In the modern legal system it can be rape simply because the person was too intoxicated to consent even though they said yes (external - login to view). We have much more sophisticated ways of evaluating consent than some integer number of trips around the sun.

Last year, they were law abiding citizens, this year they are pedophiles because we changed the law. Yesterday they would have been pedophiles, today is the child's birthday so it is okay. Two adults are the same age and they both have sex with the same person, one is a pedophile because they are a teacher, the other isn't a pedophile because they are a stranger.

In the case of ``young'' children I don't mind people who want to generally say that a ``young'' child cannot give consent. I don't think prepubescent is a good definition of ``young'' though; I have known girls who did not get their periods until 16-18 trips 'round that stellar orb of ours. I have known people who could not remember a time in their life when they did not masturbate or were not interested in sex. Also, I don't think puberty necessarily corresponds well with the intellectual capacity for consent; one may come before the other.

I think our laws deny people under the age of 19 to the right of self determination and identity; and so I wonder about consent. I think any abduction and rape damages a person's identity, I wonder how much more so this will effect younger individuals?
 
lone wolf
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post


...In the case of ``young'' children I don't mind people who want to generally say that a ``young'' child cannot give consent. I don't think prepubescent is a good definition of ``young'' though; I have known girls who did not get their periods until 16-18 trips 'round that stellar orb of ours. I have known people who could not remember a time in their life when they did not masturbate or were not interested in sex. Also, I don't think puberty necessarily corresponds well with the intellectual capacity for consent; one may come before the other.

I think our laws deny people under the age of 19 to the right of self determination and identity; and so I wonder about consent. I think any abduction and rape damages a person's identity, I wonder how much more so this will effect younger individuals?

Most times, there is no abduction or violent rape involved with child molestation. At a young age, kids instinctively trust. As they grow, they learn about strangers and grow wary of them. What about the kid who goes along with "It's okay" from "Uncle Jack" or "Auntie Jill" or the scoutmaster or (?)... simply because it's attention - something lacking from Mommy and Daddy? They're the kids molestors seek out. They're the kids who may know it's wrong but any attention at all is better than none. They're the kids who bear scars for the rest of their lives - whether they know it or not. Okay, the kid may have gone along willingly. Was it consent?

If someone tells me they're a pedophile, they're not getting anywhere near my kids.

Wolf
 
Niflmir
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

Most times, there is no abduction or violent rape involved with child molestation. At a young age, kids instinctively trust. As they grow, they learn about strangers and grow wary of them. What about the kid who goes along with "It's okay" from "Uncle Jack" or "Auntie Jill" or the scoutmaster or (?)... simply because it's attention - something lacking from Mommy and Daddy? They're the kids molestors seek out. They're the kids who may know it's wrong but any attention at all is better than none. They're the kids who bear scars for the rest of their lives - whether they know it or not. Okay, the kid may have gone along willingly. Was it consent?

If someone tells me they're a pedophile, they're not getting anywhere near my kids.

Wolf

Is it consent? I know that no one can make blanket generalizations on the situation you describe, but what I do know is that in some cases it will be consensual.

As I pointed out, in contemporary law the following situation is considered rape:

Morgan and Christian are at a party. During the party, Morgan drinks only a nominal amount of alcohol and subtly refills Christian's glass repeatedly until Christian is heavily intoxicated. Morgan takes Christian home and asks permission to have sex, Christian says yes. In the morning Christian has no collection of what happens but Morgan informs Christian that they had sex. Christian is appaled, Christian would never normally do this.

The fact of the matter is, because Christian was intoxicated, no consent was given.

What I am saying is that an analysis of context is always a better indicator of consent then: "Well, Christian made 16 full trips around the sun." Classifying everything before a certain age amounts to legislative laziness, and erring on the side of caution for children at the expense of a few adults. Admittedly, it is hard to find fault with that.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#64
You shut down certain parts of you.
It's a skill.
I've had to use it here.
 
karrie
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

Posts unrelated to this topic have been moved.

You're a doll Kreskin.
 
karrie
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

Kreskin - Good move!

Karrie - back to your excellent topic


If it were more freely discussed ... it might lose some of the horror and stigma we attach - because until the act is committed - nothing wrong has been done in thoughts alone.

That's what hit me too after the initial "you've got to be yanking me!"

Imagine if someone could check into 'rehab', make their condition known to their loved ones, and avoid this compulsion much like avoiding drugs and alcohol. With society behind them, I can only imagine it would be ten times easier. And with an open honest dialogue, I think those thoughts wouldn't have the same grip on someone's psyche that they end up having when they are never given voice, never talked about (unless it's with someone similarly ill, over the internet).

While our society gets very up in arms over the mere mention of it, there have been whole societies in the past where it was totally normal. It's obviously not some modern abnormality, but a common manifestation. To treat it as such.... I can only imagine how that could help.
 
karrie
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

My reaction would be the same as for a recovering alcoholic not wanting to be around me because of my occasional drinking. I would respect their decision and my opinion of them would not change for the worse.
Some of my thoughts on a complicated issue:
I think pedophile is an unnecessary and loaded word. Abductor and rapist capture the action much more vividly. To me a person does not magically gain the ability to consent after making an exact integer number of trips around the sun. In the modern legal system it can be rape simply because the person was too intoxicated to consent even though they said yes. We have much more sophisticated ways of evaluating consent than some integer number of trips around the sun.
Last year, they were law abiding citizens, this year they are pedophiles because we changed the law. Yesterday they would have been pedophiles, today is the child's birthday so it is okay. Two adults are the same age and they both have sex with the same person, one is a pedophile because they are a teacher, the other isn't a pedophile because they are a stranger.
In the case of ``young'' children I don't mind people who want to generally say that a ``young'' child cannot give consent. I don't think prepubescent is a good definition of ``young'' though; I have known girls who did not get their periods...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Well, in order to have a discussion, people need to be on the same page with definitions, or at least playing off a common set of definitions.

pedophile, as I've always heard it, is someone who as sexual urges toward prepubescent children.

child molestor is someone who acts on that urge, with a prepubescent child.

statutory rape is acting on that urge with someone who was not LEGALLY able to consent.

rape is acting on that urge with any individual unable to consent.

The necessity for courts to draw lines in arbitrary ways is definitely not something I criticize. People are too varied, and if it all was determined by mental maturity, then my poor husband would have needed a psych exam to prove I could really be his girlfriend, rather than just knowing my age was a 'safe' one.

Most of the laws make sense to me, BUT I think there should also be some play there within the courts for special circumstances, like the 13 year old who tells her new boyfriend she's really 15.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#68
In a Canada a child can be 14 and have sex with an adult.
The 14 year old is a child....any adult wanting to have sex with a child is a pedophile.
any one useing the liberty of this law is a pedophile .
IMHO
 
karrie
#69
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDredView Post

In a Canada a child can be 14 and have sex with an adult.
The 14 year old is a child....any adult wanting to have sex with a child is a pedophile.
any one useing the liberty of this law is a pedophile .
IMHO

Well, by the time I was 14, my body had been telling me to breed for 3 years already. 4 years since the onset of puberty, and 3 years of reproductive age. I had bigger breasts than half my teachers, and hips to match.

I started dating a rig hand when I was 14. There was no 'intercourse', because my dad had threatened him with death, but, we were dating. We ended up waiting a year (really, what difference did that year make?) to honor our promise to my parents. Once they knew he was going to stick around, and we were serious about eachother, the death threat was off the table, but tehy still weren't happy about it.

He's now my husband. And trust me, he's no pedophile.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Well, by the time I was 14, my body had been telling me to breed for 3 years already. 4 years since the onset of puberty, and 3 years of reproductive age. I had bigger breasts than half my teachers, and hips to match.

I started dating a rig hand when I was 14. There was no 'intercourse', because my dad had threatened him with death, but, we were dating. We ended up waiting a year (really, what difference did that year make?) to honor our promise to my parents. Once they knew he was going to stick around, and we were serious about eachother, the death threat was off the table, but tehy still weren't happy about it.

He's now my husband. And trust me, he's no pedophile.

Well obviousley the guy did not take liberties with you.
how old was he if i may ask?...i think when i was talking adult i was thinking a 25 year old or higher.....i mean yeah girls are entering puberty earlier ..but emotionally ...i don't know..am i prude?


It's hard for me to wrap my head around a relationship btw a 14 year old and a 25 year old man.....
 
karrie
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDredView Post

Well obviousley the guy did not take liberties with you.
how old was he if i may ask?...i think when i was talking adult i was thinking a 25 year old or higher.....i mean yeah girls are entering puberty earlier ..but emotionally ...i don't know..am i prude?


It's hard for me to wrap my head around a relationship btw a 14 year old and a 25 year old man.....

See, with hubby and I, it's part of what Niflmir was talking about. He hit 18, and suddenly he IS and adult by definition. If I'd been a couple months younger, he'd have been suddenly considered a statutory rapist by Canadian law. There was no 'intercourse', but, trust me he'd have still been in the wrong for much of the other stuff. These arbitrary cut offs make it tough.

And frankly, things wouldn't have been much different if he was 25. I was engaged by 16, married by 19. We were settled and having kids by 20. When you're at that sort of stage of development in your life, those neat little numbers don't really make much of a difference. I had no interest in a highschool relationship. I had no interest in pointless dating. If it wasn't serious, then move on, because I by 14, I was ready to settle down and have my family... seriously. It drove my teachers nuts, but thankfully my mom got it. Even though I was highly encouraged to 'please act like a normal teenager', they knew I wasn't.
 
triedit
#72
The readilness for sex is a cultural issue and current laws seem to be enough in my opinion.

Back to the OP...this guy needs to talk to his therapist about boundaries. If he's just having thoughts, fantasies even, he's not a danger to the public. Men have rape fantasies all the time and don't actually rape. Women are assaulted via S & M voluntarily so it isn't a crime, it's a matter of fetish.

If he gets off thinking about kids, then that's his private business. It becomes an issue only if he's afraid he will bring it to real life.
 
karrie
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

If he gets off thinking about kids, then that's his private business. It becomes an issue only if he's afraid he will bring it to real life.

I would assume this is the issue if he feels he can't be around people who have kids. It is of course, just an assumption.
 
triedit
#74
That's a big assumption. Maybe he has shame over these thoughts and feels he is a predator, much like some here have labeled him based on just his thoughts. Perhaps he is more worried about it than necessary.

But only he can make that decision and if I were the woman, I'd not have my kids around him. More out of respect for his wishes than any risk to my kids.
 
Curiosity
#75
We're on the magic numbers of age related sexuality - and each individual differs from another therefor no law can be wholly right or wrong .

The kind of molestation which I am more concerned with is consentual - little ones who don't know what sexuality is - and experience molest from a close relative or friend of the family - even a friend of an older family teen - these are the ones which boil into such terrible outcomes for the young victims who as the light dawns and memories flood into knowledge - there is nowhere to turn other than rage -

Adult family members or sitters giving little ones their evening bath while mom and dad are out for dinner or at a party..... it happens quite often.... surprisingly when there is no pedolphilia involved but more like curiosity.... but if it becomes a ritual .... a young life can be interrupted and damaged and the predator can become what was never intended.... a child molester. Experimentation can be as cruel as the planned act.

There are as many scenarios and predator types as their are victims. How laws can be made is beyond me.... and most of them only seek to separate the predator from the prey temporarily unless the final act is done - killing the victim to honor silence.

There is only one person in control - the predator - the molestor - the pedophile - and until control is diverted into other relief, obsession mitigated into alternative activity, nothing at the present time seems to work. It is a lifetime sentence.
 
Curiosity
#76
A Question / Observation

There are often adults who gaze at emerging pubescent children in sexual ways - not in a desire to molest them but in admiration of their development - a pretty little daughter/niece, or a handsome young son or nephew..... sometimes people think they are falling into a nasty place when they are
really just using admiration and in some cases relief that their close family members are ripening and
will soon be responsible adults soon enough. It changes the picture for relationships.

Some never make the change and become more private and cut off from their young adults. Awkwardness takes the place of innocent teasing and hugging and I hate when I see it happen.

Sometimes I hate that things change in families who don't understand they have to be ready to meet the evolution of sexuality head on.... in the healthiest way.... with the most understanding and love....and education....as possible.
 
karrie
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post


Sometimes I hate that things change in families who don't understand they have to be ready to meet the evolution of sexuality head on.... in the healthiest way.... with the most understanding and love....and education....as possible.

A very neat observation Curio.

I know with me, life around my uncles became hellish once I hit puberty.

"Wow, you're really getting bigger... you know... bigger" (which my misguided brain took to mean fat)

There were constant comments on my increasing size, be it my breasts or my hips (which no, my redneck uncles didn't refer to as hips, they simply commented on my derriere).

By the time I was 13, I was convinced I was a massive pile of jelly. When in fact, I was a fit young woman with a smoking bod. I look back at pictures now, and I'm appalled. I am fat now, but what I see in the mirror hasn't changed from what I saw then. I was so certain I was huge. They told me all the time that I was, so I was, right?

It's amazing the power adults have over the perceptions of youth.
 
Curiosity
#78
Dear Karrie

Your story demonstrates how careless words can skew a child's perception about how the world seems to be.

I think every family has one or two boor-types who can damage a young person's self-value in a few crude statements - and the damage lasts quite a while for both boys and girls.

We are brought up to respect our family members and in humor often some people just don't seem to get how to talk to the tenderest of the young - those blooming in ways they do not comprehend. It is a risky time for all young people - that chapter in life when we discover things which disgust us - which we realize we are going to be part of - and at the same time we long to be loved and find someone for us to love too.

Disney could never dream up the ride pre-teens go on.... it is a daily struggle to keep sane about self ...
 
Niflmir
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDredView Post

In a Canada a child can be 14 and have sex with an adult.
The 14 year old is a child....any adult wanting to have sex with a child is a pedophile.
any one useing the liberty of this law is a pedophile .
IMHO

The Conservative party changed that. The legal age of consent in Canada is now 16.
 

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