What would your reaction be?


lone wolf
#31
Diddler deserves no better than what his/her victim got: a lifetime of self-tortured anguish. My instinctive reaction to someone saying they're a pedophile is to want to puke. There's my confusion. The problem with clinical terminology versus common use of a word is the misunderstandings that are created. Until today, I understood a pedophile to be someone who has already proven him/herself to be just a low-life child molestor, and someone who thinks about sex with a kid - JUST thinks about it - is a sick-thinking ba**ard who better give me some distance while they're on their way to some very effective therapy.

I pray that I don't issue judgement now on someone who is just crying "help!"

Wolf
Last edited by lone wolf; Jul 22nd, 2007 at 04:57 PM..
 
Anachronism
#32
This reminds me of hearing a woman on a radio talk show who heard of a man charged with animal cruelty, for beating his pet dog. She said "They shoot take him out and shoot him."
Anyway, my logic behind why the death penalty is stupid aside, pedophilia (not acting on it, but just the feelings) cannot be helped by the pedophile. As the man in the story said, he knows it's wrong but there's nothing he can do besides counseling and not touching children. So how does he deserve death, or arrest at all for that matter, if being a pedophile isn't even his fault?
If you arrest a pedophile simply for being a pedophile, and not touching children or anything, then it would be because it was illegal. And in order for a person to be arrested, he has to be guilty of something. And he's not guilty, because he consciously had nothing to do with his pedophilia. So even if pedophilia in and of itself were a crime, no one could possibly be charged with it.
If a pedophile is consciously responsible for being a pedophile, then homosexuals are consciously responsible for choosing to become homosexual, which is not true.
Ergo, pedophiles who do not act on their thoughts are not guilty of anything and deserve no punishment.
Saying that pedophiles cannot be 'cured' is exactly like saying that homosexuals cannot be 'cured'. And while I can't argue with you there, Curiosity, I will say that there've been life coaches, etc., who can be hired to try to cure homosexuality, and it's had a history of "working", although whether or not it's true and not just a psychological trick is anyone's guess.
It's not even the pedophilia that really needs to be cured, but rather the pedophile should have the capability of not acting on his impulses. As we've seen in the first post, pedophiles who do not act on their impulses can be functional members of society. I don't see the point in frowning down upon them in this case.
 
MikeyDB
#33
I hope I've been fairly lucid or at least reasonably cogent in trying to discuss issues with people here at CC....

I have reduced cognitive skills because of my brain injury. I can't sequence numbers and my short term memory sucks....

And I'm old.

I suppose one more strike and I'm out!

I can't help but feel that if we have substantial evidence that a condition can be treated (that's out for old age of course)...we should exhaust every reasonable effort to help people with their difficulties.

I also believe that we can apply this "logic" or this "altruism" to the pedophile as well. The only caveat I'd make is that the individual must have the desire and committment to change. Othrewise we're wasting our time and efforts.

I'm not the person I was fifty or sixty years ago and there's no going back, but I was willing to try. I spent a year in occupational and physical therapy to get to where I am now....

I'm braind damaged and that shows, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of making the effort to participate in life...that's all I'd ask of the pedophile...
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

But this man knows it's wrong, otherwise he wouldn't be talking about it, seeking counseling, and making sure he's not around kids... right? Do you think you could make him think it was any more wrong? He obviously thinks it is, and is trying to find ways to deal with it.

And don't lump me in with people who think convicted criminals should be gone lightly on. I don't agree with the laws as they currently deal with child molestors. Trying to pin my opinion down based on my field of study is more than a bit flawed. I have nothing but contempt for child molestors. You'll never catch me trying to counsel or reform any adult who's molested a child.

i'm sorry karrie..
I publically apologise for any bad reflections towards psychologists as well ....they are not the problem but part of the solution.....

It's the bleeding hearts i want to actually vent my rage at.....

I'm glad you posted off me Karrie.....sorry if i painted you in bad light or lumped you with anyone.....
please forgive me......

this subject is hard on me is all......

d
 
karrie
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDredView Post

i'm sorry karrie..
I publically apologise for any bad reflections towards psychologists as well ....they are not the problem but part of the solution.....

It's the bleeding hearts i want to actually vent my rage at.....

I'm glad you posted off me Karrie.....sorry if i painted you in bad light or lumped you with anyone.....
please forgive me......

this subject is hard on me is all......

d

The issue was definitely one I hesitated to bring up here. It's usually hard on at least one member, if not more, because so many have been injured at the hands of a molestor. I didn't take it very personally that you're angry about the issue.

What I saw when this situation was raised to me though, despite my initial disgust, was a chance to possibly, maybe, start changing the way society allows the cycle to continue.

I need to be adamantly clear though... compassion and counseling for a pedophile is not the same thing as compassion and counseling for an actual molestor. While I can see one way being a good way to go, the other, well, just fills me with anger. I've seen too many repeat offenders in my day. I've seen families torn apart because of their inability to go back once they've opened that door. The way the system currently operates in dealing with them is not sufficient. I've seen a man who molested his own daughter, and a Down's Syndrome patient that worked at his office, be given a warning by the courts and allowed to continue a life of freedom. He can't see his children unattended, and thus has to hire a social worker to supervise visits. That's the extent of his punishment. It infuriates me.
 
Pangloss
#36
The thing to keep in mind is the paedophile had done nothing. He has bad thoughts, and that's all. Accede to his wishes and stay out of his hair.

What is so difficult about that?

On the "they shoot horses" line of reasoning - you would murder people for their thoughts? I suggest that impulse - right here and right now - makes you the bigger and more fearful monster.

Why would someone tell another they have sexual urges towards children but never acted on them? This thought experiment describes an idiot, nothing more.

Pangloss
 
karrie
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by PanglossView Post


Why would someone tell another they have sexual urges towards children but never acted on them? This thought experiment describes an idiot, nothing more.

Pangloss

Why would it be idiotic to be up front about it? It would help, to ensure that those around you know, would it not? Like knowing which of your friends are alcoholics and shouldn't have a glass of wine waiting at their seat at dinner. To have a community be aware that, despite your desire to not act on it, you should not be left alone with children, would help to ensure your goal is met.
 
Pangloss
#38
That would be true, Karrie, if the general public were smart, which we aren't. Individuals are oftentimes brilliant, but groups tend to sink to the level of the stupidest, most opinionated and most scared.

So you tell person "A" and they tell person "B" - now B says that not only are you feeling sexual urges towards children, but you have satisfied yourself with the janitor's retarded daughter. Now you're up on charges and it doesn't matter that there's no physical evidence. You're now on the news, out of a job, homeless and shunned by your family and friends.

It gets worse from there, and pretty soon the pitchforks and boiling oil are at the ready.

You would have a really hard time convincing me that isn't a real possibility.

Is this hypothetical paedophile a smart woman or man? Then they keep their mouth shut at work, and go see a therapist.

How do they explain their (behavioural) repulsion to children? Simple - they hate the little sandwich-grabbing yard apes. Can't stand 'em. Say that every friend who has had a kid turns into a "ain't my kid the best ever" drooling idiot and pretty soon they aren't your friend any more.

Much safer and more pragmatic.

Pangloss
 
karrie
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by PanglossView Post

....but you have satisfied yourself with the janitor's retarded daughter...

Pangloss

What ever possessed you to use THAT as an example? I never mentioned that specifically, I simply mentioned a down's syndrome girl who worked at an office in a past post, yet you come up with 'the janitor's daughter' (which she was BTW). do you have ANY clue how creepy that is?
 
Pangloss
#40
Whatever. I just used an example that came to mind - assaulting a CEO's child would lead to swift action from cops and prosecutors; attack a working stiff or their kids, and maybe nobody cares.

Made a better thought experiment.

Anyway - to the substance of my post - your response?

Pangloss
Last edited by Pangloss; Jul 22nd, 2007 at 06:03 PM..Reason: Spelling.
 
karrie
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by PanglossView Post


Is this hypothetical paedophile a smart woman or man? Then they keep their mouth shut at work, and go see a therapist.

How do they explain their (behavioural) repulsion to children? Simple - they hate the little sandwich-grabbing yard apes. Can't stand 'em. Say that every friend who has had a kid turns into a "ain't my kid the best ever" drooling idiot and pretty soon they aren't your friend any more.

Much safer and more pragmatic.

Pangloss

This pedophile is a professor. I won't give you where they work, or what department, but to say that they're smart is a definite.

But, to spend your life ostracizing and hurting friend after friend (because trust me, I know people who live like you advise, although I can't say it's for pedophilic reasons, and their lives are miserable), it might be preferable to be as honest and true to oneself as possible, and let the chips fall where they may. regardless, he has the right to deal with it how he sees fit I suppose.
 
karrie
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by PanglossView Post

Whatever. I just used an example that came to mind - assaulting a CEO's child would lead to swift action from cops and prosecutors; attack a working stiff or their kids, and maybe nobody cares.

Made a better thought experiment.

Anyway - to the substance of my post - your response?

Pangloss


yes yes, I was getting to it. had to get the case of the heeby jeebies off my chest though. don't do that again. *shudders*
 
Kreskin
#43
I didn't find the scenario very plausible. If he has been able to control himself I doubt he would dramatically change his behavior at the announcement of a pregnancy, then tell someone about his unactioned thoughts. Seems too far fetched. Makes for a good debate but the chances of it happening are up there with a comet hitting their workplace.
 
Pangloss
#44
Absolutely he does have that right Karrie - my question is why someone who has not only done no harm, but has gone out of his way to do no harm, would then put himself in harm's way?

Even universities have stupid and vindictive people who would twist simple honesty to their advantage.

Better to be quiet, and seek help. Not because of shame, but because of pragmatism.

What of the ethical objective of maximizing potential happiness? Making himself an unemloyable pariah will deprive his students of a good and honourable teacher, his friends of someone they have comfortable trust in (a trust he has no doubt earned), and his family of his love, support and well, income as a professor.

All to satisfy his need to be "better known" as Michael de Montaigne would have said.

Not the smartest path, I'd argue.

But I'm not him, I have emotional distance from the issue, and it ain't up to me anyway.

Pangloss
 
karrie
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

I didn't find the scenario very plausible. If he has been able to control himself I doubt he would dramatically change his behavior at the announcement of a pregnancy, then tell someone about his unactioned thoughts. Seems too far fetched. Makes for a good debate but the chances of it happening are up there with a comet hitting their workplace.

uh, yeah... okay... except that it did.
 
karrie
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by PanglossView Post


Not the smartest path, I'd argue.

But I'm not him, I have emotional distance from the issue, and it ain't up to me anyway.

Pangloss


I have no idea what I would do in his situation, obviously. I don't know if it's the best, the smartest, or the safest path either. Talking about it from a safe distance gives one the ground upon which to declare many issues as black and white which truly aren't.

Personally, as a parent, I think it's the path I'd be most comfortable with a friend taking. I live my life assuming that anyone and everyone is capable of it anyway. It would be nice to have the guess work taken out of it, even if it's just to know that this person is definitely someone you can't ever trust alone with your kids. I know that probably sounds like I've gone a bit off my rocker, but, there it is.
 
Kreskin
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

uh, yeah... okay... except that it did.

It did? Who when where?
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#48
The problem with the paedophile is that people react extremely negatively. With today's lenient sentences and re-offenses, the public has lost most of the trust in the justice system to actually handle the problem. So they overreact and this creates and enviornment where Tom does not get the breaks he would otherwise get. My prediction is that if you start locking up peadophiles who commit acts up for longer, the hysteria will eventually die down.
 
karrie
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

It did? Who when where?

I told you the story, you don't need the specifics of who it is or where.
 
Unforgiven
#50
Who needs a reaction? This guy admitted he is a pedophile and that isn't going to go over well at the staff family picnic or the Christmas party. Office politics will have long since dealt with this guy way before the next rugrat drops and it will be a long forgotten circumstance in no time.

And that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

On a slightly higher level of thought, what does it matter? The results are clearly stated. He hasn't done a single thing other than tell Carly that he has a problem he is getting counselling for. He has ended their friendship and so Carly can go about her business with no concern at all unless she feels that good old Tommy here is getting into harmful activities. At that point the onus would be on her to inform the authorities and have the justice system ensure that there are a few safeguards in place to protect those at risk. And so should I be in Carly's place, this is how I would handle the situation.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Carly headed into work, ecstatic to tell her friends her good news. As she walked down the hall toward the office she shared with her Tom and Samantha, she thought of the excitement they'd share with her when they found out about the baby.

The last thing she expected was Tom's shocked silence, and the days of avoidance that followed. She pondered the reasons behind this abnormal behavior, but, was unable to fathom his reaction.

Finally, after days of unusual quiet in the office, skipped lunches, and missed coffee dates, Carly was able to pin Tom down and demand an explanation for his sudden shift from a warm and caring friend, to a cold and indifferent coworker. The answer she got was one she never would have expected.

"I can't stay friends with you. I'm a pedophile. I'm in counselling... I've never so much as touched a child because I know it's wrong, but, I'm a pedophile"

What would your reaction be, to finding out a friend of yours has pedophilic thoughts?

What should society's reaction be to people who come forward for help in order to avoid hurting a child?

Which is the responsible path to take with such an individual?

 
Kreskin
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I told you the story, you don't need the specifics of who it is or where.

Well then my reaction might be to ask him if his therapist suggested admitting it to anyone and everyone he comes in contact with who has or will have a young family. If that's part of his therapy he can expect to have a giant black mark hanging over him in life and perpetual unemployment as one of the results. Just what is getting accomplished by his therapy?
 
lone wolf
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

Well then my reaction might be to ask him if his therapist suggested admitting it to anyone and everyone he comes in contact with who has or will have a young family. If that's part of his therapy he can expect to have a giant black mark hanging over him in life and perpetual unemployment as one of the results. Just what is getting accomplished by his therapy?

Now, that sounds more like a twelve-step program than any therapist's suggestion.

Wolf
 
karrie
#53
I notice that a lot of you have made the assumption that either his employers don't know about his 'illness', or that Carly is going to talk to the other employees and get him fired. There's also the assumption that Carly has quit speaking to him. Can I take it to imply that these would be your courses of action? Because it doesn't seem to have been the course any of the people involved have taken in this case. While it's been discussed in a rational manner with her friends outside of work, it hasn't been spread around work. And Tom hasn't been ostracized. One could probably argue that this is a case of 'not yet'.

It was the way that all involved have been somewhat, well, calm and unphased about it that made me bring it up.
 
Zzarchov
#54
Academically I know Pangloss is right. I know many things academically. I know that there is no reason I should be more willing to let a kid see a brutal gunfight on TV than to let them see nudity. That being said, in reality I know I will act very differently, its how my brain works. I would let a kid see gunfights and Kung Fu fighting on TV without pausing but if someones buttocks are on display I'd switch channels in an embarassed huff. It isn't logical, but its how I am, as many others are.

So in such a case, with no cure in sight I would react negatively, I would react in the same way if someone told me "I hear voices that tell me to kill people, and I want to act on it, but I don't and Im in Therapy". I'd want them to be institutionalised until such time as they are not a potential danger to society. Its unfair, its woefully unfair, its probably even counter productive. But unless we are willing to actually research this area and find a cure I don't know of a better option.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

So in such a case, with no cure in sight I would react negatively, I would react in the same way if someone told me "I hear voices that tell me to kill people, and I want to act on it, but I don't and Im in Therapy". I'd want them to be institutionalised until such time as they are not a potential danger to society. Its unfair, its woefully unfair, its probably even counter productive. But unless we are willing to actually research this area and find a cure I don't know of a better option.

thanks man....those simple words are really the best possible choice....

Mentally ill people in this country cannot be forced fed meds.Does that make any sense at all?

Pedophiles are sick. If someone was to post that they really wanted to kill politicians and stand in front of them and shout "Stop me all I think about is killing you bastards, I'm afraid I'm going to kill you".
You visit their home and all it is is pics of politicians with slashed faces....would the police step in and evaluate this person...would those that evaluate this person be extra careful to give him a free walk about????
 
Unforgiven
#56
That's the problem with giving up only part of the story and then asking for some rationalization. I think it's disingenuous to make some remarks about the answers based solely on what wasn't stated in the first recital.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I notice that a lot of you have made the assumption that either his employers don't know about his 'illness', or that Carly is going to talk to the other employees and get him fired. There's also the assumption that Carly has quit speaking to him. Can I take it to imply that these would be your courses of action? Because it doesn't seem to have been the course any of the people involved have taken in this case. While it's been discussed in a rational manner with her friends outside of work, it hasn't been spread around work. And Tom hasn't been ostracized. One could probably argue that this is a case of 'not yet'.

It was the way that all involved have been somewhat, well, calm and unphased about it that made me bring it up.

 
karrie
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

That's the problem with giving up only part of the story and then asking for some rationalization. I think it's disingenuous to make some remarks about the answers based solely on what wasn't stated in the first recital.

What I asked was what peoples' reactions would be to the situation. As a matter of fact, the thread title very clearly states the question I was asking when I explained only the parts of the situation which are pertinent to said question. Telling you what someone else's reaction was really holds no bearing on what your reaction will be. There are no right or wrongs. It was sheer curiosity over how other people would react, versus how the people involved have reacted.

Edit: And I wasn't intending to chide responders for their responses. Re-read it. I was simply asking if some of the assumptions made could be applied as the responses people would expect.
Last edited by karrie; Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:47 PM..Reason: additional point
 
Kreskin
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I notice that a lot of you have made the assumption that either his employers don't know about his 'illness', or that Carly is going to talk to the other employees and get him fired. There's also the assumption that Carly has quit speaking to him. Can I take it to imply that these would be your courses of action? Because it doesn't seem to have been the course any of the people involved have taken in this case. While it's been discussed in a rational manner with her friends outside of work, it hasn't been spread around work. And Tom hasn't been ostracized. One could probably argue that this is a case of 'not yet'.

It was the way that all involved have been somewhat, well, calm and unphased about it that made me bring it up.

My course of action would be to tell him he's nuts for confessing everything he simply thinks about. She's already chatting it up with her friends and at that rate the whole town will hear about sooner or later.
 
Kreskin
#59
Posts unrelated to this topic have been moved.
 
Curiosity
#60
Kreskin - Good move!

Karrie - back to your excellent topic

I wonder if someone who begins having these thoughts - who has not yet committed them to action - would ever feel free to confess.

In our society we are more likely to call the police than someone to help. Not that help is at that stage yet - hopefully one day - but if there was a retreat or respite from the legal implications perhaps more people who seek help before their obsessions become overwhelming...

No I do not mean religious retreat.... I'm talking science here.... medication.... counseling... all we have to offer... and hopefully delay molestation while science catches up.

If it were more freely discussed ... it might lose some of the horror and stigma we attach - because until the act is committed - nothing wrong has been done in thoughts alone.
 

Similar Threads

0
Reaction to violence
by sridatta | Sep 15th, 2009
9
Reaction Time
by Twila | Oct 21st, 2008
7
48
American Reaction to Advice
by Haggis McBagpipe | Oct 25th, 2004
no new posts