Extinction

china
#1
How can a so-called intelligent species become aware of the potentially disastrous impact it is having on its environment, and thence the possible extinction of itself, and then continue (and often increase) doing the very things that cause the problem? Where has the sense of the relationship of individual action and its collective consequences gone ?
 
Vereya
#2
It all comes down to the sense of individual responsibility, that was practically obliterated by the Christian religion. Another thing is the respect for the Nature. The Nature and the elements it is made up of was demonized by the same religion, so contaminating everything around was equal to fighting demons. Had the world remained Pagan, we wouldn't have the ecology problems we are having now.
 
Dexter Sinister
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by VereyaView Post

. Had the world remained Pagan, we wouldn't have the ecology problems we are having now.

Hmmm.... well, I think there's some truth in what you say Vereya, but I don't think it's as simple as that either. North American aboriginals were not, for instance, the almost instinctive ecologists popular mythology makes them out to be, there's plenty of evidence of extraordinary wastefulness in some of their activities. The plains Indians used to stampede herds of bison over cliffs, for instance, killing and maiming far more animals than they could use before the meat rotted. They didn't leave much of an ecological footprint only because there were too few of them and they didn't have a technology that would enable them to do the permanent damage we can do now. There's also evidence that many groups of them died out because they outstripped the carrying capacity of their environment. Much of this is documented in a very interesting book called 1491, a survey of what North and South America were like before their discovery by Europeans. And there's evidence from all over the world of similar things. Much of what used to be called the Fertile Crescent, around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, is now thought to be desert because of human activities. Jared Diamond wrote a fascinating book called Collapse, about how human societies self-destruct by damaging the ecology that sustains them. Paganism's no guarantee of environmental sensitivity.
 
RomSpaceKnight
#4
The fertile crescant was a desert to start with. Early civilizations in the area used the Euphrates to irrigate. This system was destroyed by the Mongols and never rebuilt.

Paganism always had a mother Earth aspect. Given time perhaps that aspect my have matured in to a modern industrial respect for the planet, not having it put in place for us to use.

It's hard to say again how aboriginal people in N.A. would have matured as a civilization. Guess we will never know due to there almost extinction from the diseases and ecxcesses of Christian Europeans.
 
Walter
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

How can a so-called intelligent species become aware of the potentially disastrous impact it is having on its environment, and thence the possible extinction of itself, and then continue (and often increase) doing the very things that cause the problem? Where has the sense of the relationship of individual action and its collective consequences gone ?

You are going to have to stop believing everything Gore and Skuzuki are spewing. There are problems out there, but things have never been better. Just ask all the people who are living longer and healthier lives.(ie. most of the world)
 
Phil B
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

You are going to have to stop believing everything Gore and Skuzuki are spewing. There are problems out there, but things have never been better. Just ask all the people who are living longer and healthier lives.(ie. most of the world)

Is the fact that most peoples now have longer life expectancies than say in 1900 not actually increasing the burden on the planet?
 
Unforgiven
#7
Choose to believe what you want to believe. No matter what you do it's futile because of the greed of a good portion of the population here in the West. Look around at the waste this way of living creates. Without clubing people into doing what needs to be done, it far too little far too late. And always some group is willing to expend your life and the future of everyone's children to capture just a little bit more of the pie.

Good luck surviving a few more generations of this. It's easier to convince Chuck Heston that guns are for nuts and the best thing is just to collect them all up and crush them for everyone's safety.
 
MikeyDB
#8

Unfortunately there are significant numbers of folk who would rather “politicize” the many issues around climate-change and anthropic effect on not only global climate but the entire relationship between humankind and all the living creatures that inhabit the planet upon which we all live.

These people are victims.

They are victims to their ignorance and unwillingness to examine the available material for themselves.

They are victims to a sharply divided political dynamic that arrays the… “There is no proof that human industry or development has any effect on the planetary ecosystem, its biodiversity or its climactic envelope.” From either the incredibly disingenuous and profoundly stupid naysayers who live in a fantasy that embraces the anthropocentric view of life that regards humankind and its writhing self-delusions of “god-like-creatures-created-in-the-likeness of the creator himself”….as the ultimate expression of their god-delusion, or the far more dangerous “Humankind his industry and his re-making of the planet have no effect on the sustainability or survivability of the planet and its atmosphere.” Who take their selfishness greed and pathological egocentricism to the ultimate, permitting them to lay waste to the only planet we are currently aware of, that supports life in the entire universe…in the name of making a dollar.

These rather feeble-minded and willingly ignorant folk of the first type, suffer under the influences and sustained indoctrination and conditioning of the second type who regard any consideration of a greater responsibility…beyond their own pleasure wealth and aggrandizement as threat.

For every action in the universe there will be an equal and opposite reaction…if we’re to believe Newton…. But for some “reason” beyond logic and beyond fact, many human beings don’t believe or understand that a ‘closed system’ is extremely vulnerable to influences that destabalize the balance upon which these closed systems rely.

For every Al Gore and David Suzuki there are literally thousands of eminent non-affiliated scientists who are both chronicalling the collapse of the human race as we destroy the planet around us and who use data that has been and is being collected to provide some insight into the planetary conditions we can anticipate given our current (500 years of unabated, ill-managed and greed driven) growth.

The somewhat weak-minded and those reluctant to pull their heads out of their…to begin to understand what’s happening around them are held like insects, trapped in the amber of their willing ignorance.

It won’t matter if you provide tables charts and graphs, it wouldn’t matter if you could teach them all basic biology and chemistry, all the education in the world that is capable of clarifying the abyss we face…because they’re too busy mouthing the names of popularized personalities that are the reinforce point of contact and interest…..

Popularized partly through these people’s own desperate efforts to get the seriousness of the situation onto the human “radar scope” and popularized by the ignorant the disingenuous and the greedy as targets.

By and large the human race has suffered and will suffer with this rampant ignorance and willingness to self-delusion until the end.

St. Paul, Min.- The 1200 scientists and others at the international meeting sonsored by the government of France issued a statement at the end of the 5-day-long event. It said in part, “Biodiversity is being irreversibly destroyed by human activities at an unprecedented rate….(demanding) ..urgent and sifnificant action.”

New plant and animal species are emerging, University of Minnesota ecology professor David Tilman says, but not nearly fast enough to make up for the toll caused by human activity.

“That’s sort of a 1 million to 4 million year process, and yet we are causing species to be lost at rates of 100 to 1000 times faster,” he says.

Tilman says the rate of extinction is approaching what scientists assume happened 65 million years ago. That’s when many believe a giant meteorite struck the earth causing a dramatic climate change that led to mass extinction.


Washington PostTuesday, April 21, 1998

A majority of the nation's biologists are convinced that a "mass extinction" of plants and animals is underway that poses a major threat to humans in the next century, yet most Americans are only dimly aware of the problem, a poll says. The rapid disappearance of species was ranked as one of the planet's gravest environmental worries, surpassing pollution, global warming and the thinning of the ozone layer, according to the survey of 400 scientists commissioned by New York's American Museum of Natural History.

The greatest loss with the longest-lasting effects from the ongoing destruction of wilderness will be the mass extinction of species that provide Earth with biodiversity. Although great extinctions have occurred in the past (external - login to view), none has occurred as rapidly or has been so much the result of the actions of a single species. The extinction rate of today (external - login to view) may be 1,000 to 10,000 times the biological normal, or background, extinction rate of 1-10 species. The rapid loss of species that we are witnessing today is estimated by some experts to be between 100 and 1,000 times higher than the “background” or expected natural extinction rate (this is a highly conservative estimate: some studies estimate current extinction rates as 1,000–11,000 times background rates). Unlike the mass-extinction events of geological history, the current extinction phenomenon is one for which a single species - ours - appears to be almost wholly responsible. Such a deteriorating situation is being referred to as “the sixth extinction crisis”, after the five known extinction waves in the Ordovican, Devonian, Permian, Triassic and Cretaceous Periods. s extinctions per year.

I suppose we could listen to Walter…but I wish he’d come up with some facts supporting his notion that everything is just fine and we can all quit thinking about this silly stuff…..

And of course we have Zzarchov….messages on point about how ludicrous everything from eco-consciousness and working for peace …anywhere …might be….

Lot’s of opinion and of course the efforts of many to ensure that right for these folk to say their piece…regardless of how ridiculous and short-sighted this formula thinking might be….
 
Walter
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

I suppose we could listen to Walter…but I wish he’d come up with some facts supporting his notion that everything is just fine and we can all quit thinking about this silly stuff…..

If we adhere to your outlook of the way things are we might as well slit our wrists right now. As Brian said, "Always look on the bright side of life."
Last edited by Walter; Jun 25th, 2007 at 10:21 AM..Reason: format
 
MikeyDB
#10
Well.... Walter

I don't think that the number of lives saved by passengers and drivers...compelled by the way to wear their seatbelts makes the crusade to get people to wear their seatbelts...a waste of time.

I don't think that the science that has delivered the great technology that has increased the lifespan and prosperity of the wealthy should be ignored when we simply don't like the results...

You may of course feel free to slit your wrists....

We once called epilepsy "possession" and we once believed that one couldn't exceed the speed of sound...we once believed that diseases and relatively minor infections that led to death and plagues were caused by evil spirits...."germs" and "hygene" weren't in the lexicon of man for a very long time, but when they did emerge, the lifespan and quality of life of many many human beings improved...

You're suggesting we ignore that same science that same pursuit of the sources of causality and change in the world that delivered the existence you seem to feel is so great...when you haven't the foggiest notions of what you're talking about....

Slit your wrists if you must....
 
Walter
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Well.... Walter

I don't think that the number of lives saved by passengers and drivers...compelled by the way to wear their seatbelts makes the crusade to get people to wear their seatbelts...a waste of time.

I don't think that the science that has delivered the great technology that has increased the lifespan and prosperity of the wealthy should be ignored when we simply don't like the results...

You may of course feel free to slit your wrists....

We once called epilepsy "possession" and we once believed that one couldn't exceed the speed of sound...we once believed that diseases and relatively minor infections that led to death and plagues were caused by evil spirits...."germs" and "hygene" weren't in the lexicon of man for a very long time, but when they did emerge, the lifespan and quality of life of many many human beings improved...

You're suggesting we ignore that same science that same pursuit of the sources of causality and change in the world that delivered the existence you seem to feel is so great...when you haven't the foggiest notions of what you're talking about....

Slit your wrists if you must....

You missed the word,if, in my post. I adhere to what Brian said.
 
MikeyDB
#12
Now remind me here Walter wasn't Brian being crusified at the time....?
 
Walter
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Now remind me here Walter wasn't Brian being crusified at the time....?

Yes.
 
MikeyDB
#14
Well perhaps he should have looked on the bright side before he got himself into that particular situation ...wouldn't you say...?
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#15
Couple of thoughts on thread. first off it's not the Christians that are responsible for the bible saying man has dominion over earth...it's the bible,which they adopted due to the fact Jesus's life somehow got linked to it via the new testament....

Easter island natives doomed themselves by stripping all the trees to make those Stone heads....
 
MikeyDB
#16
Hey Doc....

Got that day-pass and right onto the computer right away huh...?
 
Walter
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by VereyaView Post

Had the world remained Pagan, we wouldn't have the ecology problems we are having now.

We'd all be dead like the Easter Island people. Maybe they were Christians, too, but I don't think the missionaries made it to their island before they Paganed themselves to extinction.
 
Walter
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Phil BView Post

Is the fact that most peoples now have longer life expectancies than say in 1900 not actually increasing the burden on the planet?

Civilized countries have a very low or even a negative population growth, save for immigration. Once the rest of the world gets educated to our levels here in the so-called west, they too, will lower their birth rate.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

Civilized countries have a very low or even a negative population growth, save for immigration. Once the rest of the world gets educated to our levels here in the so-called west, they too, will lower their birth rate.

Dunno about that without draconian laws against having more than one child china would prolly have another 200 million people.

India is civilised, look at it's land mass and people.
I think you are refering to western culture having less children that we used to?
 
Walter
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDredView Post

India is civilised, look at it's land mass and people.
I think you are refering to western culture having less children that we used to?

Most of India's population has had very little formal education. Hardly what I would call civilized.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

Most of India's population has had very little formal education. Hardly what I would call civilized.

ouch!
What kinda oki doke muthafu remark is that?
 
Walter
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

Most of India's population has had very little formal education. Hardly what I would call civilized.

Literacy:definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 61%
male: 73.4%
female: 47.8% (2001 census)

Taken from:https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../print/in.html
 
Unforgiven
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

Literacy:definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 61%
male: 73.4%
female: 47.8% (2001 census)

Taken from:https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../print/in.html

I don't know if civilized is the right word for it. Probably uneducated or ignorant is a better discription.

Also it's a different culture than what we are used to here. India at the moment is moving through what could be compared to the 50s in the US. Women beginning to find work out side of the home. Money becoming more available to everyone.
 
Dexter Sinister
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by RomSpaceKnightView Post

The fertile crescant was a desert to start with. Early civilizations in the area used the Euphrates to irrigate. This system was destroyed by the Mongols and never rebuilt.

No, I don't think that's entirely the explanation. Irrigation produces salinization and eventual desertification.That's a large factor in the decay of the early civilizations in what is now Iraq and Syria, as Jared Diamond shows quite clearly in his book Collapse that I referred to. Irrigating the area again now would not produce crop land, the soil's been destroyed by millennia of irrigation, and it's still happening in the modern world wherever there's large scale irrigation. It's a growing problem on the great plains of North America, in Australia, India, Turkey...
 
Vereya
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

We'd all be dead like the Easter Island people. Maybe they were Christians, too, but I don't think the missionaries made it to their island before they Paganed themselves to extinction.

Do you know exactly what happened to those people?
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by VereyaView Post

Do you know exactly what happened to those people?

they ate each other so big foot wouldn't get any.
 
Vereya
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDredView Post

they ate each other so big foot wouldn't get any.

That's what I call real self-sacrifice!
 

Similar Threads

0
Aurochs to be Returned From Extinction
by Bar Sinister | Jan 19th, 2010
15
Mass extinction
by Walter | Jan 6th, 2010
56
Bigfoot Risks Extinction, says Canadian MP
by Kreskin | May 29th, 2007
16
Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
by MMMike | Nov 17th, 2005
no new posts