Doing the right thing


daisygirl
#31
Mikey, as an aside, was the word "not" meant to be in that sentence or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
MikeyDB
#32
As an aside...

No the word was not omitted by accident.

We make choices and the ramifications of those choices have far reaching consequence. Our expectations of conformity to a standard or at least the climate (moral and ethical) of the times impose expectations on other people. I'dratherbeskiing had it right...

For what it's worth..
 
daisygirl
#33
Thank you, Mikey.
Last edited by daisygirl; Jun 17th, 2007 at 05:54 PM..
 
Unforgiven
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

As an aside...

No the word was not omitted by accident.

We make choices and the ramifications of those choices have far reaching consequence. Our expectations of conformity to a standard or at least the climate (moral and ethical) of the times impose expectations on other people. I'dratherbeskiing had it right...

For what it's worth..

Nothing on the comprehension of that standard and the addition/omission of specifics due to freewill and self gratification?
 
MikeyDB
#35
Unforgiven

“Nothing on the comprehension of that standard and the addition/omission of specifics due to freewill and self gratification?”

I’m not entirely sure what the question means, but I’ll give the answer a shot and you can correct me or guide me as you feel necessary.

Definition


Standard: “A basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated.”

“The ideal in terms of which something can be judged.”

“Conforming to or constituting a standard of measurement or value; or of the usual or regularized or accepted kind.”

“Established or well-known or widely recognized as a model of authority or excellence.”


This variety of definitions of “standard” implicitly connote an objective perspective while critically dependent on subjective judgment…

The nub of our dilemma regarding… what standard? And… why?… Proceeds from trying to synthesize the source, the root or the genesis from which moral ideation arises.

How does a human being know what is “right-behavior” and what is “wrong-behavior”?

A great many people ‘feel’ and/or ‘believe’ that moral ideation is the bailiwick of religion, the doctrine of some particular ‘church’….

This perspective furthers our appreciation for the apparent dichotomy we observe between social organizations who (for the greater-part even if not the “majority”) subscribe to religious tenets/commandments/rules as their guide in exercising and understanding “right” from “wrong”. Guides to behavior attributable to ‘divine enlightenment’ are fraught with inconsistencies contradictions and insidious interpretations.

Christianity (as an example) references the Bible as the ultimate arbiter in questions of moral theses…

"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:39

These excerpts from the Bible illustrate (there are many many occasions of counterintuitive…contradictory statements and ideas contained in the Bible) and these are but one example.

My familiarity with the Quran (Koran) is regrettably sorely inadequate however I’m prepared to entertain the notion that, as “manuals-for-living” these “guidelines for human behaviour”….works delivered through Holy-Men…from the pulpits and daises of synagogues temples shrines churches and pulpits of all manner…demonstrate that every translation interpretation and perspective whether in fact starting out as the divine word of an extra-phenominal entity (supernatural) or not, become instruments and agents of social conditioning which invariably contain elements of the human perspective and the dynamics of the human-mind. Ignorance, greed, power and a plethora of human-interests that have little to nothing in common with a universal “standard” are inextricably interwoven within these manuscripts and tomes…then embraced by millions as the final or ultimate declaration.

As historical documents, they’re interesting, but their real-world application as the metrics, the parameters and references informing consciousness with respect to the nature of “right” and wrong”, they are as variable and as inconclusive/inconsistent as any other human work. This is the unavoidable and inevitable consequence of establishing a premise or declaring a formula edict or “law” based on temporal vagaries.

The “morality” of issues like: Euthanasia- medical advances and increased longevity have transformed our way of looking at old age.

Abortion:I don’t know if abortions were performed in biblical times (certain procedures may have been used to kill the foetus), but conditions (both medical and social) were very different from the present day.

Gene manipulation: There were no biological/gentics labs until recently.

Contraception: Means of controlling reproduction were basic and simple at the time we accept the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible were written…nothing similar to modern techniques or preventions existed.

In vitro fertilisation and genetic screening never caused a ripple on the philosophical/theological pond two thousand or five thousand years ago….as concepts…as ideas…they simply didn’t exist!

Can a universal non-temporal framework of morality be established in the context of a universe that exhibits change as its only constant? Can a system of “rules” or “codes of behaviour” stand alone on the strength of some particular “authority”…for all time ..and if it can, what is the nature and source of this “authority”?

I personally reject the thesis that an immutable foundation of principles applicable to every human (or extra-human) experience situation and condition present or anticipated at some future time can ever be granted/accepted as the ultimate authority.

Because we (human beings) operate, interrelate, experience and reflect on the dynamic forces present in a constantly evolving universe through only the narrow window of the present…as informed by the past…our moral theses and our concepts of morality and ethics have to be malleable and available to re-examination and re-interpretation.

This contribution has wandered significantly from the original topical content and would perhaps be better entertained in the philosophy threads here at Canadian Content…

If anyone’s interested please state your query in that thread and we can pursue these and other ideas there.










 
SwitSof
#36
MikeyDB, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the “morality” of issues like: euthanasia, abortion, contraception.
By all means please start a thread and I'm sure people will respond, I know I would
 
Unforgiven
#37
Well there is morality and then there is law. While morality is taught, presumably by those parents, guardians or caregivers mentoring in whatever way they do, is influenced by environment, the law (societal standard) is separate from all that influence. In theory anyway. But the law is taught also and a bit like morality has the possibilities to lose something in translation.

So where does meaning well, sit within the frame work of morality and law?
For example, the boyscout in doing his good deed for the day, hauls the little old lady across the busy street, which she has just crossed before he came along, with great effort on her part. Where sits the net judgement?
Last edited by Unforgiven; Jun 18th, 2007 at 12:43 PM..
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

For example, the boyscout in doing his good deed for the day, hauls the little old lady across the busy street, which she has just crossed before he came along, with great effort on her part. Where sits the net judgement?

Hey i saw that cartoon too...I love when threads turn this way
 
triedit
#39
Sort of tying this together with Mikey, and NOT as a defense, telling a friend what she (in my opinion) needed to hear was my moral obligation. According to my experience, this person needed a healthy dose of truth. The delivery, however, was wrong. I take full responsibility for that.

Morally, for me, that means I felt she needed a bit of a slap to encourage her to seek help that she wasn't seeking for issues she was ignoring or wasn't aware of. Yes, there was an element of self service there as I (for my own mental health) couldn not continue to support her as a friend unless she dealt with those issues. That was stated clearly as well. It wasn't supposed to be a "shot". It was supposed to be my drawing a line in the sand with a clear explaination of why. There is no doubt that needed to be done, so I feel no guilt for doing so. I do wish, however, I had handled the delivery differently. Even given the information I now have (and didnt have then) I would still do the same thing, albeit worded and delivered differently perhaps.

In the second case, I intervened because I felt I had the "inside scoop" that my friend didn't have to further his goal. At that point I wasn't particularly interested in the well being of the person I was seeking information from. Over time, that changed. I became interested in that well being which put me in a difficult position-one I am still in- of trying to ease the pain of one friend while helping the other be a better person. Fortunately, both these people understand me and my motives and although the friendships on both counts took a bit of a blow, they still remain. It's not a victory by any means, and was never intended to be. I still want to help both my friends. I see nothing wrong with that. It isnt going to happen though. In some ways, Ive had to pull back from both of them. That is a consequence I can live with.

By posting this topic I was not intending to "dig up old hurts" or rehash anything still unresolved. I was simply trying to understand my own situation and make changes to myself as necessary. I tried to do that on another forum but was thwarted at every attempt so my learning was delayed at every turn. I appreciate the opportunity to "think out loud" and get all sorts of feedback.
 
MikeyDB
#40
Triedit

I understand perfectly. I haven't meant to minimize or scorn the situation that provoked your contribution, if I have, I appologize.

We've heard and perhaps experienced the notion of "tough-love", that's often characterized as a "fall-back" position when straightforward adult conversation doesn't seem to have the desired affect.

The issue of spanking children...is it abuse or is it a necessity stemming out of the realization that children (according to Piget and others) don't yet enjoy the facility to internalize instructions before age 7... even when those instructions are intended as means to securing the child's safety and reinforcing discipline..to later of course merge into the capacity for self-discipline...

We reasonably expect that adults have the sophistication of thinking that enables them to reach decisions based on some form of objective "truth", a recognition that actions have consequences and without undertaking careful examination of the contributing elements within the decision making process...mistakes will occur...

Our self-interests, our "feelings" our "desires" our "wants" and our "needs" frequently confuse and frustrate the decision making process. Sometimes getting an objective third-party opinion or perspective on a situation can help people to make better decisions.

Sometimes....

Sometimes those emotional conflicts erupting out of wants and needs pose barriers to clarity and sometimes advice or third-party intervention is rejected outright becuase we aren't prepared to listen..because we can't see or don't have the luxury of seeing beyond our own (sometimes) entrenched perspectives....

Sorry if I've left you feeling I've hijacked this thread...didn't mean any harm...

I've posted in an existing thread in the philosophy section if you'd like to take a look there....

Again I appologize if I've screwed things up...
 
triedit
#41
Not screwed up at all! More like...enlightened! No apology neccessary doll.
 
MikeyDB
#42
Thanks kiddo..

By the way I realized I spelled Piaget wrong....

My mind does a hundred miles a minute and my fingers try to keep up....whoops!
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

The issue of spanking children...is it abuse or is it a necessity stemming out of the realization that children (according to Piget and others) don't yet enjoy the facility to internalize instructions before age 7... even when those instructions are intended as means to securing the child's safety and reinforcing discipline..to later of course merge into the capacity for self-discipline...

first off yeah I like this guy too Robin, said so in the pot thread.

Now as per spanking kids.
Never allow your judgement of children not comprehending you drop to the level of violence is a solution!!! please I beg of you.

children even if mentally challenged are not farm animals to be beaten. Even farm animals should not be prodded but that is another thread.

Parents lacking in skill resort to violence to teach or demand their will be done.
It teaches violence as an answer when you do not get your own way as one grows up.
It desensitzes the child as well.....

It's never an option.

please do not condone this sort of really low economic scale ignorant toally out of date misuse of parenting skills.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#44
could we move this to morality thread somehow...cut and paste ..just saw mikey's post there and it fits well
 
MikeyDB
#45
DocDred

I've watched as youngsters...(improperly supervised mind you) got themselves into potentially dangerous situations. Running into traffic to retrieve a ball or object wisked into harms way by happenstance..the breeze or simply by accident. A four year old can't make the connection between cause and effect...can't anticipate danger and are sublimely unaware of the possibility of calamity...

Am I suggesting that you beat your child with a stick? No indeed. What I am suggesting is that we've over-reacted to the wrong thing.

Why and how is a child placed in a situation like that? Sometimes yes it's an accident....sometimes it's poor supervision....our focus needs to be on preventing these kinds of situations. That said, a child simply doesn't have the cognitive ability to internalize the gravity of many instances of potential harm. I don't see anything wrong with a firm..open hand...smack on the butt that emphasizes that the word "no" and the limits imposed on behavior are important. I've worked with families and abused children for a very long time...

I'm sickened that adult human beings carry sufficient baggage (emotional) around with them as part of their coping skills that they lack the impulse controls necessary to be able to differentiate between appropriate discipline and abuse...

I would agree that if you aren't able to make that differentiation then you should avoid being the instrument of discipline.
 
Nuggler
#46
I like what ya write Mikey. Good stuff.

Too bad the world wouldn't pay attention eh?

N'ugg.
 
Unforgiven
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

DocDred
I've watched as youngsters...(improperly supervised mind you) got themselves into potentially dangerous situations. Running into traffic to retrieve a ball or object wisked into harms way by happenstance..the breeze or simply by accident. A four year old can't make the connection between cause and effect...can't anticipate danger and are sublimely unaware of the possibility of calamity...
Am I suggesting that you beat your child with a stick? No indeed. What I am suggesting is that we've over-reacted to the wrong thing.
Why and how is a child placed in a situation like that? Sometimes yes it's an accident....sometimes it's poor supervision....our focus needs to be on preventing these kinds of situations. That said, a child simply doesn't have the cognitive ability to internalize the gravity of many instances of potential harm. I don't see anything wrong with a firm..open hand...smack on the butt that emphasizes that the word "no" and the limits imposed on behavior are important. I've worked with families and abused children for a very long time...
I'm sickened that adult human beings carry sufficient baggage (emotional) around with them as part of their coping skills that they lack the impulse controls necessary to be able to differentiate between appropriate discipline and abuse...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
A couple of points though.

As a parent, I should mention that there are not rules or even some instruction on how to discipline your particular kid. All are different and so, react differently to the same stimulus. Some kids, even a raised voice and some words to correct them is enough to set them on the straight and narrow. While others, just aren't going to be reason with and if you think you can beat the devil out of them and they'll comply, you're in for a shock.

We as a society have never come up with an answer to the person who decides to tell you to go ****e yourself. We can kill them or lock them up in a deep dark pit but that isn't going to change anything.

So kids are so sensitive they just become over emotional and crumble into a fit of tears and sobs at the first sign of constructive criticism.

So while it's one thing to say we need to change how things are done, it's altogether another to actually find a way to do that.

For starters, look at what we pay those people we charge with providing the care and nurturing from 8:30 to 4:00 five days a week. It crazy that we just accept that. But we've built our culture and society in the frame work that materialistic motivation is best and more means love.

While spanking may be a sweet topic to discuss, it's only a single aspect of parenting that has more aspects than you can count.

It's never a problem from the kids who go through childhood develop into good upstanding people and go on to lead productive and interesting lives.

It's those who grow up in strife, have problems that go unresolved and become so frustrated that they lash out not caring or understanding who they hit or what that will do to others.

To sum up, if we choose to pay low wages to untrained people to care for children and effectively raise them, choose the line of punitive action when stepping out of line, and segregation when incorrigible, how do we have the nerve to expect anything less than what we have?
 
MikeyDB
#48
Unforgiven

You've brought a diamond with so many facets to be examined it's difficult to know where to begin...

Modern economics....."buy low sell high"....nothing modern about that, that's the way humankind have been doing business forever. As the Industrial Revolution got into full swing....as "prosperity" became attainable for the masses....the price we've paid has been altogether to high.

We've been conditioned to disposability, not just the tons of waste products that will remain un-decomposed for thousands upon thousands of years in our "landfills", nor the marine ecosystems that have been destroyed by over-fishing while we dump raw sewage and mercury and phenols and all manner of garbage into our drinking water.... All this "production has been going on for decades..and unless there's a sea-change in our habits and thinking...it will continue on for many years to come before the end...

Our enthusiasm for "profit" knows no limits. We regard childcare workers and daycare personnel as lower-status-people...much the way we felt about garbage men and snowplow operators and carpenters and plumbers..... The only "professions" than garnered our respect and achieved "status" were the jobs that directed efforts into electronics and business administration.... When John Kennedy threw down the gauntlet to put a man on the moon before the end of the decade, education was re-focused on science, mathematics, physics, chemistry...all worthy endeavors but they eclipsed the importance of languages, poetry, art of all kinds, communications he "romantic" understanding of human beings was sacrificed to the mechanics of life....

Social structures became "business models" and populations and geographic regions became "marketplace" and 'resource pools".....we ceased to be interested (by necessity and by choice) in familiarizing ourselves with what it means to be a human being..... Our focus became "If I'm to "get" the respect, the accolades the acceptance the acknowledgement that I so richly deserve, I've got to get myself into some occupation that makes me the most amount of money the fastest...otherwise I'm taking up space and not contributing to this frenzy of postmodernities fetishes.

Higher-education eschewed the mechanic, the skilled tradesman or tradeswoman...the focus was on cranking out mathematicians and engineers with sufficient numbers of "touchy-feely" types to pick up the pieces after the pace of our "prosperity" began creating casualties of our children our families and our extended families ceased to exist....

We embraced the thos of consumption regardless of consequence, whether that consumption cost us the future of our children or the atmosphere we breathe or the water we drink. We surrendered to the lever the cam the fulcrum and the eccentric, the mechanics of life regarded as insight into the living being.... Biology and chemistry devoted to building enormous pharmaceutical corporations while doctors abandoned their Hipocratic Oath in favour of the Lexus the Beamer and the cottage at the lake.... Medicince became business and the administration of our business...whether its seeing patients wander though a clinic in lines to ensure that medical insurance companies make big bucks or its being herded like sheep through the banks and Canadian Tire where we're ripped off by inflated prices caused by greedy middlemen and governments who've reduced their sense of who and what people are to statistics and curves on polls and studies....

We're PHUCKED and if you believe for one minute that we're not you're dreaming.
 
Unforgiven
#49
Again I know the problem, it's the solution that's difficult.

Am I to accept that your hopeless outlook is to be etched in stone? While you are in fact "Phucked" I am not. I (I think) have found the escape hatch to this asylum and perhaps while not immune to it, just maybe I'm going to get distant enough to watch it go down without me.

There are changes I would choose to instill on society though and fund it through federal tax that provides the opportunity and mandatory participation in parenting education, early childhood development and mentor-ship that is encompassed in the culture we now have. Taking your kids to work should be the norm. Spending a portion of your workday involved with kids at school
along with eating lunch together and integrating some physical activity
after school would be far more conducive to building better citizens than the dump them off first thing and pick them up a couple of hours before bed time deal we have going on now.

Being involved with children brings out the best in adults. Those who think they would never have kids and never make a good parent grossly underestimate their own abilities and confuse the ability to stop thinking of yourself first with being independent.



Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Unforgiven
You've brought a diamond with so many facets to be examined it's difficult to know where to begin...
Modern economics....."buy low sell high"....nothing modern about that, that's the way humankind have been doing business forever. As the Industrial Revolution got into full swing....as "prosperity" became attainable for the masses....the price we've paid has been altogether to high.
We've been conditioned to disposability, not just the tons of waste products that will remain un-decomposed for thousands upon thousands of years in our "landfills", nor the marine ecosystems that have been destroyed by over-fishing while we dump raw sewage and mercury and phenols and all manner of garbage into our drinking water.... All this "production has been going on for decades..and unless there's a sea-change in our habits and thinking...it will continue on for many years to come before the end...
Our enthusiasm for "profit" knows no limits. We regard childcare workers and daycare personnel as lower-status-people...much the way we felt about garbage men and snowplow operators and carpenters and plumbers..... The only "professions" than garnered our respect and achieved "status" were the jobs that directed efforts into electronics and business administration.... When John Kennedy threw down the gauntlet to put a man on the moon before the end of the decade, education was re-focused on science, mathematics, physics,...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

Again I know the problem, it's the solution that's difficult.

Am I to accept that your hopeless outlook is to be etched in stone? While you are in fact "Phucked" I am not. I (I think) have found the escape hatch to this asylum and perhaps while not immune to it, just maybe I'm going to get distant enough to watch it go down without me.

There are changes I would choose to instill on society though and fund it through federal tax that provides the opportunity and mandatory participation in parenting education, early childhood development and mentor-ship that is encompassed in the culture we now have. Taking your kids to work should be the norm. Spending a portion of your workday involved with kids at school
along with eating lunch together and integrating some physical activity
after school would be far more conducive to building better citizens than the dump them off first thing and pick them up a couple of hours before bed time deal we have going on now.

Being involved with children brings out the best in adults. Those who think they would never have kids and never make a good parent grossly underestimate their own abilities and confuse the ability to stop thinking of yourself first with being independent.

Mandatory participation!!!!
Sorry , borderline communism if you ask me. Once the state steps in to enforce what they think is proper parenting skills to mold our kids the way they want them to molded, our free thinking society is all over.
Yeah we got warts, tell me about it. All the damn parentinmg skills in the world isn't going to stop some parent from bashing his kid in the face , if they are prone to that.After passing the exam and is all washed out from his work and his kid doesn't run for his beer in the fridge fast enough some parents are just going smash their kid in the face.....

And a huge swath of the population would down right feel insulted to hell having to sit in class with the great unwashed.

We been having kids forever and will always have bad parents. Did not russia look upon it's children as wards of the state.
Fu uuuuu uuuu kc me do we want to turn Canada into facist state to enforce proper parenting.....Oh yeah you also want mandatory military 4 year program. as stated in another thread.
 
MikeyDB
#51
Sure you are my friend...

If I tell you the answer is to get away from your computer, throw your television in the garbage, be prepared to not show up at work when your child is ill or lonely or sad...that you need to sacrifice the baubbles of your existence to secure what's really important in life what will you say...and even if you say you would agree...what would you do?

If I tell you that you let your boss know that you won't be in to work tomorrow because it cost more than you get in return to fill up your car and spend hours at work doing a job that rewards you at a rate that's EIGHT-HUNDRED TIMES lower than the executive sitting in his air-conditioned office in the towers of power that line Bay Street and Madison Avenue...

If I tell you to get rid of your car or at a minimum carpool and stuff that rascal with as many warm bodies as you can to get to work...would you do it? How many do? Stand on the side of any major highway at rush-hour and watch...count how many cars have a sole occupant.... then you tell me how prepared anyone is to do anything about what's happening around them...

If I tell you to take the sod off your backyard and put in a garden....would you do it? It's more likely you'd cite City Ordinance.55847 that stipulates that no homeowner in the municipality will maintain a garden within the confines of our "walled communities" and of course a few chickens and a cow are out of the question.

If I tell you to take your over-packaging your refuse that keeps the cash registers humming at your local supermarket..back to the store where you purchased it...to put the refuse and the over-packaged and over-containerized plastics and paper products back where they belong ...would you do it?

If I tell you to get off the electricity grid and start investing in independent power generation systems...that will give you much less power and demand that you change your lifestyle to accomodate a more prudent consumption profile...would you do it?


If I tell you to hold your councilman and your provincial politician responsible and accountable and be prepared to walk in protest to his constituency offices and if necessary to the provincial legislature and exercise the right you have to be heard...would you do it?

I can go on listing an you can keep on ignoring....

Yes you are my friend and so am I and so are we all....PHUCKED BEYOND BELIEF
 
Unforgiven
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Sure you are my friend...

If I tell you the answer is to get away from your computer, throw your television in the garbage, be prepared to not show up at work when your child is ill or lonely or sad...that you need to sacrifice the baubbles of your existence to secure what's really important in life what will you say...and even if you say you would agree...what would you do?

Use my computer to generate money in my absence. Watch what I need to watch on tv and use it as a teaching tool. Not show up at work when my kids are ill, lonely or sad until I can teach them the skills to cope with those emotions and little eventualities when I am unavailable. When they become serious, take the time to help them pass. And before all that, buy into what I think is success rather than what I'm told is success.

Quote:

If I tell you that you let your boss know that you won't be in to work tomorrow because it cost more than you get in return to fill up your car and spend hours at work doing a job that rewards you at a rate that's EIGHT-HUNDRED TIMES lower than the executive sitting in his air-conditioned office in the towers of power that line Bay Street and Madison Avenue...

I would wonder why it's not better to stop driving in and use transit. Then talk to my boss and explain my situation so that I can either make other arrangements better suited to me or find employment closer to my so that I don't have to expend all that money on commuting, move closer to work, find ways to cut my costs until I can even things out. And work to obtain that chair up there in the air collecting that kaching sitting on my derriere.

Quote:

If I tell you to get rid of your car or at a minimum carpool and stuff that rascal with as many warm bodies as you can to get to work...would you do it? How many do? Stand on the side of any major highway at rush-hour and watch...count how many cars have a sole occupant.... then you tell me how prepared anyone is to do anything about what's happening around them...

Yes! Thousands do and many more don't. I have and it's shocking. Production has become so important that a commute is considered by some to be "their time". If that isn't sad I don't know what is. But without forcing them, how do you get people to act responsibly when they refuse to on their own accord?

Quote:

If I tell you to take the sod off your backyard and put in a garden....would you do it? It's more likely you'd cite City Ordinance.55847 that stipulates that no homeowner in the municipality will maintain a garden within the confines of our "walled communities" and of course a few chickens and a cow are out of the question.

I don't' have any sod at all, I live in an apartment now. Though I do have a little garden to grow herbs on my balcony. Chickens and cows don't belong in a city as they cause too many problems.

Quote:

If I tell you to take your over-packaging your refuse that keeps the cash registers humming at your local supermarket..back to the store where you purchased it...to put the refuse and the over-packaged and over-containerized plastics and paper products back where they belong ...would you do it?

YES! As a matter of fact I've thought about loading a dump truck with Tim Horton packaging and dumping it in the drivethru, just up the street. I'd like to get a bounty on the head of anyone who uses "disposable" in their advertising.

Quote:

If I tell you to get off the electricity grid and start investing in independent power generation systems...that will give you much less power and demand that you change your lifestyle to accomodate a more prudent consumption profile...would you do it?

Yes I am working on that very thing right now. But to be honest, it is a very dirty business this clean energy stuff. Do you know what goes into making a solar panel? In reasearching biodiesel, I have found this inventor who claims to have a product that burns clean and extremely efficiently in regular diesel engines that can be grown yearly and is very easy to refine into fuel. should this be the case, I will be putting a substancial amount of my investment capital into the development and marketing of this stuff once it's patent app has been accepted.

Quote:

If I tell you to hold your councilman and your provincial politician responsible and accountable and be prepared to walk in protest to his constituency offices and if necessary to the provincial legislature and exercise the right you have to be heard...would you do it?

HA! No it's a waste of time and energy. Politicians by the very nature of the job must become liars, corupt sneaks, who spend their time looking out for number one if they even hope to see that golden pension. If they can sit in the back bench long enough without getting themselves into trouble, they will be brought into the lime light and either sacrificed for momentary gain or become the assassin of those who presume to take their heads.

People in general don't care about politics. Those who do are more often so partisan that they could not care less about the actual disposition of the party members they support as they do about the *******s they oppose and bicker about.

[quoteI can go on listing an you can keep on ignoring....[/quote]

Where do you get the idea I am ignoring anything?

Quote:

Yes you are my friend and so am I and so are we all....PHUCKED BEYOND BELIEF

How would you even know what I am without knowing who I am?
 
daisygirl
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

By posting this topic I was not intending to "dig up old hurts" or rehash anything still unresolved. I was simply trying to understand my own situation and make changes to myself as necessary.

You have also stated several times, though, that you feel you did nothing wrong even though it cost you several friendships. I disagree that that you are trying to understand your own situation and make changes as necessary; if that were so, you would have listened to what the majority of these people said. Hell, you didn't even listen to what the actual people involved said. You don't have it in you to be a friend. And yes, by posting this topic, your intention was definitely to dig up old hurts. There was no other reason to bring it here.

And don't you dare moralize for either of the two situations...you were so far off base in both situations that I am surprised you have the nerve to show your face around any of us with all the trouble you caused. You were the one that chose to play God...we certainly didn't put you in that role and we definitely don't see you that way...hate to burst your bubble.

Now do us all a favour and let it drop.
Last edited by daisygirl; Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:05 PM..
 
daisygirl
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

telling a friend what she (in my opinion) needed to hear was my moral obligation. According to my experience, this person needed a healthy dose of truth. The delivery, however, was wrong. I take full responsibility for that.

Excuse me, but you were never morally responsible for the person involved,you had no moral obligation to her, you knew no other truth than yours and I am still aghast at the things you said to this person which had absolutely nothing at all to do with the situation. How dare you try to psychoanalyze a person when you have absolutely no idea of what you are doing! Thank God she had real friends around her.

Do everyone a favour and never volunteer for a suicide hotline!





I am asking that this thread either be stopped or locked before it turns into a flamming thread like it did in the Vine.
Last edited by daisygirl; Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:27 PM..Reason: Request for stop or lock.
 
triedit
#55
Nobody is doing any flaming. Most of us are beyond that at this point. I have found discussing this here, among some neutral parties, most helpful and eye opening.
 
daisygirl
#56
If that was true, then you would realize that almost everyone who has answered from this board has said you were wrong with your choices and that you way over stepped your boundaries. But you only see the one person that sides with you so your eyes are wide shut. You have learned nothing.

Now drop it for the sake of the people involved. You enjoy gloating over it. They were hurt by your betrayal.
 
Unforgiven
#57
I love the way you flame me.
Gee I think you're really keen.
Nice to see your smiling face.
Over done is never fun.
Rabbits make tasty babies.
Easy does it on the hot sauce.
 
daisygirl
#58
I totally love how you have given me 3 negative reputation points for stating my own opinion. Real mature.
 
Zan
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

Nobody is doing any flaming. Most of us are beyond that at this point. I have found discussing this here, among some neutral parties, most helpful and eye opening.

Have you?

and...

Is this thread any indication of how you intend to repair the damage or the friendship?

I ask because in the OP, you said you were aware that you'd lost friendships due to your own choices. I now see someone that was involved in that fiasco asking you to please let it go, and allow her privacy in this regard to remain so. If I was considering forming a friendship with someone I'm not sure what I'm seeing would encourage me to trust that someone beyond a very superficial level.... but then, respect for personal boundaries is big in my books.
 
triedit
#60
If she had not posted such, would you even know who I was talking about? No. I kept my comments very general and nonspecific. In fact, the whole thing had moved on to a topic drift that was quite positive. I certainly don't intend to try to repair the friendship. That ship has sailed. But I have learned much from how Dred has handled this as well as the posts from Mikey. I was content to watch the thread drift on to new waters, confident the subject had been thoroughly addressed.

I refuse to withdrawl my posts at the behest of someone who still wants a fight. Im not fighting. I did not post "fighting words". In fact, in the OP I acknowledged openly that I knew I had done something wrong and was seeking feedback. When such feedback was negative, I did not overreact or try to defend myself. I watched, I learned, I grew. Im not taking a step backward on that journey just because someone is overly sensitive.

This is my forum too. When I have something on my mind, I feel I have the right to discuss it openly so long as I don't flame or offend. I don't feel I have done either here. When someone posts anti-american blather, do I whine and demand it go away? When someone post about Christianity and I feel offended, do I insist the topic be locked? Certainly not.

If I have things I need to talk about, is this not a place to do that? Granted if I had come in and named names or spoke ill of that person, I might be due for a lecture at least. As it is, I think somebody just needs to put me on ignore.
 

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