Libertarianism=Anarchy.


snfu73
#1
I don't know if many libertarians frequent these forums. I want to go on record saying that I am not a big fan of the concept of libertarianism. To me, it is nothing by anarchy by a more civilized, grown up title. To me, libertarians want to tear down all that keeps our society civil and functioning.

Your thoughts....
 
Said1
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

I don't know if many libertarians frequent these forums. I want to go on record saying that I am not a big fan of the concept of libertarianism. To me, it is nothing by anarchy by a more civilized, grown up title. To me, libertarians want to tear down all that keeps our society civil and functioning.

Your thoughts....

Libertarians don't take personal responsiblity for their actions? Lack of accountability is what tears down society, not deciding to smoke cigarettes.
 
LittleRunningGag
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

I don't know if many libertarians frequent these forums. I want to go on record saying that I am not a big fan of the concept of libertarianism. To me, it is nothing by anarchy by a more civilized, grown up title. To me, libertarians want to tear down all that keeps our society civil and functioning.

Your thoughts....

And, what is it that keeps our civilization 'civil and functioning' exactly? The threat of violence.


Quote: Originally Posted by Said1

Libertarians don't take personal responsiblity for their actions?

WTF? Libertarians are all about taking personal responsibility. Libertarianism is about not relying on others to carry you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself. It is about everyone living in a way that fits them, so long as it doesn't interfere with the lives of others. And not trying to force your opinions on others just because they disagree with you.
 
hermanntrude
#4
anarchy is not neccessarily chaos. my old boss was an anarchist. he believed no-one should be in charge, but people should be responsible for their own actions. It was difficult to work for him.

personally I feel I am a liberal kind of guy, but I don't believe in anarchy as I know that the overwhelming majority of people are too stupid to be responsible for their own actions.
 
LittleRunningGag
#5
Libertarianism != Anarchy

Think of libertarians as being (very basically) conservative fiscally, liberal socially. They do not advocate for the elimination of all government. They do advocate for the reduction of government involvement in our personal lives.
 
L Gilbert
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

I don't know if many libertarians frequent these forums. I want to go on record saying that I am not a big fan of the concept of libertarianism. To me, it is nothing by anarchy by a more civilized, grown up title. To me, libertarians want to tear down all that keeps our society civil and functioning.

Your thoughts....

You obviously know very little of libertarianism.
 
hermanntrude
#7
is libertarianism different to liberalism?
 
Niflmir
#8
I happen to be libertarian. Although, I guess I don't really "frequent" this forum so much as I "occasion" it.

Although anarchy is a form of libertarianism to some people, it is not the unique form. In fact I argue that the only point of government is to regulate those areas which won't regulate themselves. Discrimination is such an example.

With regards to drug use, prostitution and some other issues: there is some harm caused by actions which generally only affect the individuals involved only in cases taken to the extreme. It has widely been shown that classical criminalization of these activities exacerbates the negative aspects while contemporary socialization, education and outreach is far more effective in the prevention of real harm.

So, in fact, you see me advocating for less legislation of personal lives and more education about proper living. Not really anarchy.
 
gc
#9
Libertarianism = small government
Anarchism = no government

...at least that is my understanding. Given that definition, I tend to be somewhat of a libertarian.
 
gc
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

is libertarianism different to liberalism?

Libertarianism is about small government, which is different from liberalism. Basically, (as LittleRunningGag pointed out) both libertarians and liberals tend to be left-wing on social policies. The difference is that libertarians tend to be more to the right economically than liberals.
 
hermanntrude
#11
small government? like an oligarchy? I think i'm in favour of that
 
Niflmir
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

small government? like an oligarchy? I think i'm in favour of that

As long as you are the oligarch?
 
LittleRunningGag
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

small government? like an oligarchy? I think i'm in favour of that

Maybe smaller government isn't quite the correct term. Less government is better. Reducing the size of government for sure, but not concentrating more power into the hands of fewer people.
 
tamarin
#14
Libertarians have never been able to convince a wide audience that their ideas will work. Certainly, Libertarians themselves are wonderful folk, imbued with the best that makes for great societies. But most people aren't like them. They lack the pluck and resolution, self-reliance and focus that true Libertarians have. I like to listen to the L's but really they're like the spotted goats in the pasture; they'll never form a majority.
 
Niflmir
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarinView Post

Libertarians have never been able to convince a wide audience that their ideas will work. Certainly, Libertarians themselves are wonderful folk, imbued with the best that makes for great societies. But most people aren't like them. They lack the pluck and resolution, self-reliance and focus that true Libertarians have. I like to listen to the L's but really they're like the spotted goats in the pasture; they'll never form a majority.

Haha, I think that is really well put. I do hold the hope that someday we will stop prosecuting for victimless crimes though, that someday the majority will see the dehumanizing folly of it.
 
BitWhys
#16
Political-economic libertarians have a quaint way of not squaring ideology with reality in the political arena. Any minarchist worth his or her salt relies on the artifice of externalities to maintain the veneer of responsibility and expects a piece of paper to maintain the balance of power.
 
Said1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by LittleRunningGagView Post


WTF? Libertarians are all about taking personal responsibility. Libertarianism is about not relying on others to carry you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself. It is about everyone living in a way that fits them, so long as it doesn't interfere with the lives of others. And not trying to force your opinions on others just because they disagree with you.

I was questoning the thread starter who was somewhat insinuating they are ruining society - or something to that effect. I of course know that all along - that they are accountable that is.
 
karrie
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

I don't know if many libertarians frequent these forums. I want to go on record saying that I am not a big fan of the concept of libertarianism. To me, it is nothing by anarchy by a more civilized, grown up title. To me, libertarians want to tear down all that keeps our society civil and functioning.

Your thoughts....

I think you're lumping two seperate political views in as one. Just because you're not a fan of libertarianism, doesn't mean you can successfully lump it in with the extremist views of anarchists. It's similar to calling anyone who agrees with the importance of social programs a communist. They may be found near one another on the same political spectrum, but, they differ regardless.

lib·er·tar·i·an (lĭb'ər-târ'ē-ən) Pronunciation Key (external - login to view)
n.
  1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
  2. One who believes in free will.

an·ar·chist /ˈćnərkɪst/Pronunciation Key (external - login to view) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (external - login to view)[an-er-kist]Pronunciation Key (external - login to view) - Show IPA Pronunciation (external - login to view)–noun 1.a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism. 2.a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed. 3.a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.
 
#juan
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarinView Post

Libertarians have never been able to convince a wide audience that their ideas will work. Certainly, Libertarians themselves are wonderful folk, imbued with the best that makes for great societies. But most people aren't like them. They lack the pluck and resolution, self-reliance and focus that true Libertarians have. I like to listen to the L's but really they're like the spotted goats in the pasture; they'll never form a majority.

Problem is, somebody still has to build the cars, trucks, busses, refrigerators, and all the things we need as well as grow the food, produce the power haul away the garbage, etc. All of these industries must be controlled to some extent by government to ensure that people are safe. Whether we like it or not, in a country the size of Canada, all that takes a fair size government.
I have listened to Libertarians talk and I can't see it working in anything but a commune or a small town.
 
hermanntrude
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

As long as you are the oligarch?

oligarchy means a few leaders. There is no such thing as an oligarch.
 
BitWhys
#21
This isn't a Highlander movie. When it comes to oligarchs there can be more than one.
 
Avro
#22
Libertarians are selfish, greedy and anti social.

I wouldn't call them anarchists.
 
Toro
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

You obviously know very little of libertarianism.

-qft
 
Niflmir
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

oligarchy means a few leaders. There is no such thing as an oligarch.

Oh? >raises eyebrow< I think you know what I meant, but just in case, check out the dictionary (external - login to view). True, I probably used an incorrect article...

As for economic standings of libertarianism, I think that a lot of previous people had some real pie in the sky ideas about how much government involvement is necessary. Corporate deviancy is a fact, and an economic form of violence that the government needs to protect citizens from. The idea isn't "smallest government possible", that would be no government at all. The idea is "smallest government necessary", which amounts to saying that there are areas that the government doesn't need to be involved, like the bedroom.
 
tamarin
#25
Certainly, we could use a little bit of Libertarian think in Canada. We are smothered by regulation. I'm not sure what can be done to lift the weight. Every year new bylaws come into effect locally and new legislative initiatives appear in parliament. We are not the democracy many hoped we might become. Government is far too big a player in our lives. But how do you subdue the beast?
 
BitWhys
#26
Any attempt to exercise fiscal prudence and government restraint advised from a libertarian point of view is bound to be off-target since the underlying assumptions of that particular school of thought are inherently flawed. The good news is that contrary to many a libertarian sentiment they don't hold the monopoly in those disciplines.
 
LittleRunningGag
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by BitWhysView Post

Political-economic libertarians have a quaint way of not squaring ideology with reality in the political arena. Any minarchist worth his or her salt relies on the artifice of externalities to maintain the veneer of responsibility and expects a piece of paper to maintain the balance of power.

There are plenty of libertarians in the US do exactly that. Seeing the Constitution as a sort of 'social contract', they wish to limit the government to the very basics of what is listed therein. Unfortunately, Canadian libertarians don't have that luxury. On the other hand, many American libertarians also view taxation as a form of violent theft disputing the validity of that particular ammendment.
 
LittleRunningGag
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by AvroView Post

Libertarians are selfish, greedy and anti social.

Why? Because they advocate that people take responsibilty for their actions? Libertarians wan't people to give to charities to lighten the load on the impoverished. They want to help others. They just don't like being forced (read: with the threat of publicly supported violence) into it.

All libertarians want is to be allowed to make their own decisions, not forced into them because a politician figures they could win votes by doing it.
 
LittleRunningGag
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by BitWhysView Post

Any attempt to exercise fiscal prudence and government restraint advised from a libertarian point of view is bound to be off-target since the underlying assumptions of that particular school of thought are inherently flawed. The good news is that contrary to many a libertarian sentiment they don't hold the monopoly in those disciplines.

Unfortunately the left, while advocating social freedom, is the same group that advocates for hate speech laws, and the ballooning of government services. And the right, while advocating fiscal freedom, is the same group that uses religion, and 'national security' to justify taking away those same social freedoms.

And both groups justify their violent oppression by saying that this is what people voted for. Publicly endorced violent enforcement of unneccessary laws and social programs. Nice.
 
Niflmir
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by BitWhysView Post

Any attempt to exercise fiscal prudence and government restraint advised from a libertarian point of view is bound to be off-target since the underlying assumptions of that particular school of thought are inherently flawed. The good news is that contrary to many a libertarian sentiment they don't hold the monopoly in those disciplines.

To attack a whole political spectrum like that with a blanket generalization is simply absurd. Replace libertarian in your sentences with left or right, democratic or dictatorial or whatever you like and the absurdity of the statement may be a bit more obvious.

The real good news is that the libertarian core view leads to a plethora of possibilities based on the interpretation of the principle of a person being the sole owner of their own life. That underlying assumption is self proving. What that fact leads you to conclude is another matter.
 

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