Suicide as an alternative?


Curiosity
#1
Do you belive in suicide?

Almost every week I see an article or discussion on euthansia - which to me means others involved in the termination of life for various reasons - all of the compassionate and generally dictated under the auspices of some medical team...

But what about suicide? Is it unethical to consider that you would take your own life if you were about to lose your faculties in the near future, the ability to self-care, or even worse to use your rational mind?

Would you decide to take measures to end your life while you could still accomplish it without assistance?

My group debate this over and over with no decisions.

My feeling is we can abort routinely now - but we cannot choose to end our own lives - even within rational parameters. Why not?
 
selfactivated
#2
My favorite subject and heavy on my heart as of late. Ive tried to commit suicide many many many times. Obviously I screwed up many many many times. Sometimes life hurts so bad that ending it feels like the only solution. I stopped wanting to end my existance 5 years ago. I met a man on line that made me see that I am a beautiful and Loving woman. He's my soulmate. We talk for hours and hours about this subject (until recently he's had a stroke, his wife let me know last week) Our conversations usually end in him extracting a promise that I'll never hurt myself again and I tell him I promise knowing he'll feel better. In his way of thinking if I hurt myself it will change the cosmic way our lives interact. He thinks we wont be together next life if I cut this life short. And he's right, in his reality we would be doomed to life after life of near misses. But thats not my heart. In my deepest belief I have the choice without retribution of some karmitic punishment. Its my choice. But within my choice I have to think, who would it hurt? Who would care? He would and I love him with all my heart and soul. I love him so much I'll continue in the pain. What happens if he dies? or worse he never remembers me? Well then theres my sister and my girls and those who I touch or will touch in the future. Theres a million ways to approach this question. You have no idea how you helped me with this post. Sometimes a single question can help a strange see the light in the darkness

Namaste
 
tracy
#3
I've seen people in conditions who aren't really living, their bodies are merely surviving. In those cases, I don't see anything wrong with euthanasia. I don't know exactly where I'd draw the line, but I don't see why it's my place to prevent someone from ending their lives in the way they choose before a horrible or painful disease does it for them.
 
Curiosity
#4
Tracy

But I was asking about suicide. Not involving any other humans (other than the poor clean up crew)....

Euthansia involves decision-making by others which puts them in a terrible place. If it were possible
to end one's life before devastating illness either physical or mental takes over... while one is still of
sound mind and body.... should suicide be accepted as an alternative to a wasting terrible time?

Cowardly or caring? Cowardly because it may be easier - caring because it rips up loved ones watching someone die.

Hospice increase morphine to ease end stages but....that isn't suicide either.
 
Sassylassie
#5
I don't think I could ever commit suicide however I have a dear friend who's son committed suicide a year ago. He was molested as a child but he seemed to be coping well he had a girl friend a job and he seemed happy. One night after supper he told his Mother and his girl friend he was going for a walk and when he didn't return his little sister (12 years old) went outside to look for him she found him hanging from a rope attached to a tree. He was only 18 years old, his father, mother little sister and his girl friend are living under a burden of guilt so heavy they can't move on. Joey's pain may of ended but he transfered it to those who loved him, suicide effects those who are left behind. My best friend growing up mother committed suicide then her father committed suicide and when she reached the same age as her mother when she died she comitted suicide. So many healthy people killed themselves, but mental anguish isn't like illness you can't see it unless someone allows you to see the pain they are in.
 
Curiosity
#6
Sassy

That was a sad story and so many teens are opting for this - getting drunk and having car accidents - your friend's hanging was a more personalized and organized method - many kids wouldn't bother to choose - they seem to do it on impulse when drunk or stoned....or overdosing

I have been schooled to remediate suicide but if death is impending for someone and there is no hope of
cure or turning back - would you include this kind of hastening death as a guilt trip on loved ones too?

I have thought it would lessen their troubles watching someone have a lengthy journey into death....
 
Curiosity
#7
Selfactivated

I am a stranger to you and I don't have any right to say this, but it would seem you are making some habitual choices in your life which are not giving you anything positive.

Why not spend some time going over all the worthwhile traits you have - and how you treat people in your
circle of family and friends and go on a journey of self-discovery to find out where you decided you were unworthy of having an excellent and fulfilled life.

When you find out the cause - dump it. Pick yourself up and find a new path....because no matter where you have been nor what you have done - it's over. You have painful lessons learned. Now find the good
things because we are all promised them - but if we don't feel we are worthy of them - we cease to look.

Start looking and expecting.
 
Sassylassie
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

Sassy

That was a sad story and so many teens are opting for this - getting drunk and having car accidents - your friend's hanging was a more personalized and organized method - many kids wouldn't bother to choose - they seem to do it on impulse when drunk or stoned....or overdosing

I have been schooled to remediate suicide but if death is impending for someone and there is no hope of
cure or turning back - would you include this kind of hastening death as a guilt trip on loved ones too?

I have thought it would lessen their troubles watching someone have a lengthy journey into death....

That is a hard one to answers Curio, personally I don't think I would harbour the same feelings of guilt if a person is truely suffering and in pain and they decided to take there own life but whow it's a hard one to call. Most seriously ill people lack the strengh to commit suicide and often ask others to help them do it, and I cringe because suicide is such a drastic step to take what if a cure is around the corner-so many what ifs for me. Suicide carries such a stigma with it, it's awful when someone asks how did he/she die and you have to say Suicide.
 
Curiosity
#9
Sassy

I know the pressures of society - even at the end. What do we want from each other I wonder?

We have a fit when someone who is in pain isn't given pain meds immediately - but when someone is dying with pain - we just sit there and wait?

Self-termination rather than suicide sounds like a decision was made by the deceased.

What a depressing topic! I think it was that stupid Macy's Parade made me think of suicide....punching pin holes in all those dumb balloons ...(sorry)....
 
selfactivated
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

Selfactivated

I am a stranger to you and I don't have any right to say this, but it would seem you are making some habitual choices in your life which are not giving you anything positive.

Why not spend some time going over all the worthwhile traits you have - and how you treat people in your
circle of family and friends and go on a journey of self-discovery to find out where you decided you were unworthy of having an excellent and fulfilled life.

When you find out the cause - dump it. Pick yourself up and find a new path....because no matter where you have been nor what you have done - it's over. You have painful lessons learned. Now find the good
things because we are all promised them - but if we don't feel we are worthy of them - we cease to look.

Start looking and expecting.

yes hun I know. Im on that journey now. Its a miricle after the death of my son and the abandonment of one of my best friends (chief) that I havent sliced my wrists let alone this recent developement with my soulmate. I was joking with my sister that it was a good thing all my knives are dull. She didnt laugh lol. Suicide is my past. Im in more pain now than Ive ever been in my entire life (Ive only share a fraction of it) thats saying something. Suicide is the absence of pain. mental, physical, emotional its all real and noone wants to continuously be in pain. Death is sweet, its slumber and peace. But it inflicts pain on others so can a Pagan that believes in her montra of Do no harm hurt others? No. Not unless shes a hypoctite. And shes not This pain never promised no pain, just truth.
 
tracy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

Tracy

But I was asking about suicide. Not involving any other humans (other than the poor clean up crew)....

Euthansia involves decision-making by others which puts them in a terrible place. If it were possible
to end one's life before devastating illness either physical or mental takes over... while one is still of
sound mind and body.... should suicide be accepted as an alternative to a wasting terrible time?

Cowardly or caring? Cowardly because it may be easier - caring because it rips up loved ones watching someone die.

Hospice increase morphine to ease end stages but....that isn't suicide either.

Sorry, suicide when it's to avoid a long and debilitating illness doesn't offend me in any way. It may be selfish, but I don't see why someone shouldn't be selfish at that point. I do think suicide is wrong under other circumstances (like because of treatable issues like mental illness), but I can't judge those people. They are in such a terrible state that they can't be condemned for not making a rational decision. They are incapable of it at that point. The best we can do is try to help them.
 
agentkgb
#12
I think people should have a right to commit suicide whenever they want, it's their right, though there should be hotlines and the like for people to call if they're thinking about it which would try to work it out.
 
cortex
#13
There is no point to senseless suffering if the sufferer cannot find any sense in it. We only own our own lives ---thats in fact all that we really own--no one can say otherwise. All this of course assumes mental competance---a suicidally depressed person for example is in fact a medical emergency and cannot be allowed to terminate their life without at least some form of medical treatment to give their consciousness a chance to reconsider--but a rational choice by a sane individual is another matter.
 
the caracal kid
#14
One can rationally decide to end one's own life. There is no ethics or morality involved in such a determination. We can not use arguments regarding the pain and suffering of others caused by a suicide. Such pain and suffering is a result of the "survivor's" manufactured expectations for the future. The reality is people die, no matter how much people protect themselves from this.

Suicide only has a stigma attached to it because of past edicts which were not about helping the individual who would commit suicide, but about preserving the functioning of the power structures.
 
Curiosity
#15
CaracalKid

You said a great deal with your choice of words - but I got stuck on the last sentence. Can you enlarge about the "power structures"?

Do you mean religious/legal restrictions?
 
temperance
#16
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary (external - login to view) - Cite This Source (external - login to view)
Main Entry: 1sui·cide
Pronunciation: 'sü-&-"sId
Function: noun
1 : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally <the legalistic concept of suicide while of sound mind, which psychiatrically speaking is not possible —Year Book of Neurology, Psychiatry, & Neurosurgery>
2 : a person who commits or attempts suicide
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.WordNet (external - login to view) - Cite This Source (external - login to view)
suicide
n 1: the act of killing yourself; "it is a crime to commit suicide" [syn: self-destruction (external - login to view), self-annihilation (external - login to view)] 2: a person who kills himself intentionally [syn: felo-de-se (external - login to view)]


It is a very personal thought and descion
and depending on your belief system ,its meaning could be totally diffrent ,not know what happens after the act it is really hard to answer if it is an alternative, and to what ,
Some find it a selfish act
but then is it not selfish to ask someone to live in pain because you cant stand them to die ?
 
TenPenny
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by agentkgbView Post

I think people should have a right to commit suicide whenever they want, it's their right, though there should be hotlines and the like for people to call if they're thinking about it which would try to work it out.

I agree with that concept if you don't have family, but the problem of suicide is that it dumps the burden on your family. Suicide is really a coward's way out; it's easy to commit suicide, it's harder to deal with living.
 
the caracal kid
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

CaracalKid

You said a great deal with your choice of words - but I got stuck on the last sentence. Can you enlarge about the "power structures"?

Do you mean religious/legal restrictions?

Yes. We know of specific religious and legal motives, but I suspect that there were earlier undocumented examples of the same. As a social creature, early man would possibly have made tribal decisions to prevent suicide.
 
Nuggler
#19
Give it a try. Come back and let us know how it went

Personally, if I was terminally ill, in a lot of pain 24/7, and life was just a piece of sh@t, I would swallow the gun, preferably before I went into the hospital, cause they keep you there, and your control over your own life is gone.

It's what you call making a decision. Everyone dies alone and has to deal with it.

That's just MHO, for what it's worth.

Ugg.
 
agentkgb
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

I agree with that concept if you don't have family, but the problem of suicide is that it dumps the burden on your family. Suicide is really a coward's way out; it's easy to commit suicide, it's harder to deal with living.

I mostly agree I think and certainly it's not a decision to make without an unimaginable amount of thought, but ultimately it's someone's right to do it I think. Maybe it's cowardly but in some circumstances I think maybe it could be the right decision. Either way there's going to be someone you're leaving behind (unless that's why you're committing suicide maybe), so I would want to discourage it but not outright say it's always the wrong choice.
 
Curiosity
#21
It is an entirely personal and individual choice

I see no reason why a person who reaches a deadly painful situation should not be allowed to have a say in the outcome if death was the eventual and only choice.

If members of the family or friends were in disagreement - that would be their decision. It should not influence a personal sense of responsibility for one's own actions.

I think society should seek to discuss it in the open and understand before it is necessary to understand that a person may opt for that choice if and when that issue should present itself.

We attach far too much import to our decisions regarding others' lives if death is an impending visitor.
 
Dexter Sinister
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

My favorite subject and heavy on my heart as of late. Ive tried to commit suicide many many many times. Obviously I screwed up many many many times. Sometimes life hurts so bad that ending it feels like the only solution. I stopped wanting to end my existance 5 years ago.

Whoa, self, that's an awful thing to hear from anybody (except for the last sentence), and especially somebody who's as kind and thoughtful as you appear to be. It's frankly beyond my imagination to conceive of a life so distressing that suicide would seem to be a good solution, so I'm not really sure I'm entitled to have an opinion about this, but that doesn't usually stop me... Terminal illness is quite another matter, and in a case like that it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a sufferer is entitled to decide to bail out of life while it's still possible to make that choice. I'm glad the suicide attempts are among the things you screwed up at, and I'm glad you quit trying five years ago. Even at the lowest point of my life, depressed, miserable, unemployed, away from home and family, abandoned by wife and friends, or at least by the people I thought were friends (turned out they were my ex's friends, not mine), suicide never occurred to me. There's something inside me that keeps saying "never surrender, never surrender, never surrender..." To end your life essentially because you're unhappy I find a deeply distressing idea.

I find it so distressing because it's so unnecessary. The man you describe as your soulmate helped save your life by helping you find something of that "never surrender" in yourself. That means it was always there, he didn't give it to you, you just needed a little help locating it. We all need help sometimes, and if there's any reason at all for our existence beyond the physical and chemical processes that make it possible, that's gotta be it. I think we have to make our own meanings in an indifferent cosmos, and they are to be found in our relationships with others, in what we can do to, with, for, and sometimes in spite of, those we love best.

And now that man lies wounded and ill after a stroke. I don't know what to say about that, so I'll borrow somebody else's words. This is John Jakes from his historical novel Heaven and Hell, about the U.S. Civil War:

"Every day of our lives , we live with stupid mischance and clumsy melodrama, cupidity, greed, unnecessary suffering. We forget it, we mask it, we try to order it with our arts and philosophies, numb ourselves to it with diversions, or with drink... We try to explain and compensate for it with our religions. But it's always there, very close, like some poor deformed beast hiding behind the thinnest of curtains. Once in a while the curtain is torn down and we're forced to look.

"But life's not logical. Some never see the beast at all. Some see it again and again, and there seems no sense to any of it. But when we look, something happens. What happens is that childhood comes to an end. Parents call it growing up, and they use the phrase much too casually. Growing up is looking at the beast and knowing it's immortal and you are not. It's dealing with that.
"
 
the caracal kid
#23
Part of the problem in the western world is an obssession with quantity of life over quality of life. Its a numbers game. Perhaps a reflection of a cultural fear of death, which is connected to the western world's most widely spread religion.
 
Curiosity
#24
CaracalKid

Suicide and euthanasia and abortion have been equated to a fast trip to hell by major religious groups - that may have been implanted into our culture - and has played a large role in our avoidance of it.

I have read of some cultures and earlier ethnic society members who have departed the tribe or group and gone into the frozen wilderness or set out on a waterway to await death by exposure - apparently painless if it is cold enough - that sleep comes and helps the passing. Also when people are too old to continue travel with a moving group of settlers, they were left to die rather than be a handicap to the people.

I see nothing wrong however in the act as it is a solo decision and event perpetrated by one upon oneself.
It cannot be murder.
 
the caracal kid
#25
I agree it cannot be murder.
 
selfactivated
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Whoa, self, that's an awful thing to hear from anybody (except for the last sentence), and especially somebody who's as kind and thoughtful as you appear to be. It's frankly beyond my imagination to conceive of a life so distressing that suicide would seem to be a good solution, so I'm not really sure I'm entitled to have an opinion about this, but that doesn't usually stop me... Terminal illness is quite another matter, and in a case like that it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a sufferer is entitled to decide to bail out of life while it's still possible to make that choice. I'm glad the suicide attempts are among the things you screwed up at, and I'm glad you quit trying five years ago. Even at the lowest point of my life, depressed, miserable, unemployed, away from home and family, abandoned by wife and friends, or at least by the people I thought were friends (turned out they were my ex's friends, not mine), suicide never occurred to me. There's something inside me that keeps saying "never surrender, never surrender, never surrender..." To end your life essentially because you're unhappy I find a deeply distressing idea.
I find it so distressing because it's so unnecessary. The man you describe as your soulmate helped save your life by helping you find something of that "never surrender" in yourself. That means it was always there, he didn't give it...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Oh Dex you sound so much like my Bri. He tells me that seeing my beauty through his eyes is just me acknowledging the mirror of my own soul. I recently oppologized to both my daughters for being so selfish during their lives. Theyre such jewels even on their worst days lol A friend helped me see the selfishness actually 2 friends. One committed suicide leaving a 4 year old behind. I was SO angry! And another.....well that's her story to tell. She made me see that I wasnt hurting me I was tearing my children up for the rest of their lives. It finally clicked, I got it. Even when Critter died, even now, I feel so empty and raw at times but not suicidal. Id dishonour my path, my soulmate, my children but mostly myself.

Ive been told I open my life up to much on this forum but if just one of my experiences reach out to another its so worth the time to type it. I wish I was half as eloquant as you are Dex, because maybe my meaning would get across better. Thank You for talking to me I really appreciate it.

Namaste
Tam
 
Dexter Sinister
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

Oh Dex you sound so much like my Bri.

Thank you. I will take that as a huge compliment.

Quote:

I wish I was half as eloquant as you are Dex, because maybe my meaning would get across better.

Oh, I think you do pretty well. What really matters is making the effort, and keeping on making the effort. Keep the faith. Never surrender.
 
selfactivated
#28
Good advice
 

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