Renters exceeding their means


sanctus
#1
CBC News
Although most Canadians are living within their means, many renters are spending more than they're making on housing costs, a new Statistics Canada study says.

The study measuring housing affordability found that 31 per cent of renters exceeded their budgets on shelter costs. By comparison, six per cent of homeowners lived outside their means.

"In some households, a high shelter-cost ratio stems from a choice based on spending priorities; in others, it is a valid indicator of housing affordability problems," author Jacqueline Luffman noted in the study, released Wednesday.

Renters who were spending much of their income to keep a roof over their heads were found to be individuals living alone, and low incomes earners. Canadians who relied on government assistance were also particularly vulnerable, the study found.

"Renters with housing affordability problems who had to rely on government transfer payments as their main source of income were almost six times more likely to be cost-burdened compared with wage and salary earners," Luffman said in the report.

The authors measured the concept of affordability using the ratio of housing costs compared with total household income. Typically, a household that spends more than 30 per cent of its pre-tax income on housing is defined as having affordability issues.

In 2004, the average cost for rent or mortgage payments, condo fees, utilities and property taxes was $9,400, about 15 per cent of the average household budget. People in Toronto and Vancouver spent the most on rent while Quebecers spent the least.
 
Jay
#2
Quote:

In 2004, the average cost for rent or mortgage payments, condo fees, utilities and property taxes was $9,400,



Did I read that wrong?
 
#juan
#3
It was probably true in 2004 Jay, but I think it might fall a bit short in 2006.

We've only lived in our cuurent house about two years but the real estate agents are telling us that the place would sell for a hundred and twenty thou more than we paid for it. It's all a game really, because any place we would buy would have gone up buy a similar amount.
 
Kreskin
#4
Quote:

In 2004, the average cost for rent or mortgage payments, condo fees, utilities and property taxes was $9,400, about 15 per cent of the average household budget. People in Toronto and Vancouver spent the most on rent while Quebecers spent the least.

Gross debt servicing is generally maximum 32% (mortgage/uts/tax etc) and qualified using two people so 15% each would be reasonable. However it's a funny way to look at the average. The average total family income is closer to reality (is reality). No way on earth the average single guy/girl would rent/buy at 15%.
 
Jay
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by #juanView Post

It was probably true in 2004 Jay, but I think it might fall a bit short in 2006.



I've owned this house for 4 years and my situation hasn't changed.....if anyone is getting away with paying $9400.00 for mortgage, taxes and utilities, count yourselves lucky. You can add on top of that another 10K for my bill.
 
#juan
#6
When we bought our first house, I had just finished university and we even borrowed the down payment. At that time, the banks were allowing twenty five percent of total gross income for mortgage, tax etc. It was heavy, but inflation would be your friend and in a few years, salaries went up but your mortgage didn't..
 
Jay
#7
And that is true....my father-in-law bought his house for 35K, 35 years ago and it would sell for about 320K today.

I was just a little shocked by the numbers I suppose.
 
#juan
#8
The really "good" old days were when you could get a twenty five year mortgage at 5 % and the bank had to stick with it for twenty five years. One thing people looked for was a house with an existing, low interest mortgage that they could take over.

We haven't had a mortgage in about twelve years and I don't miss it.
 
temperance
#9
That deoes not make sense ,,even rent gear to income ratios are 30 % and mortgage is 32-36 % of income ,where did the figure come from ,

Renters in Ottawa pay average 750.00 one bedroom ,no frills

so average people make 135,000

12 x 750= 9000.00
Did I calculate right if 15 % was the income ratio ?????
B.S
 
Kreskin
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by temperanceView Post

That deoes not make sense ,,even rent gear to income ratios are 30 % and mortgage is 32-36 % of income ,where did the figure come from ,

Renters in Ottawa pay average 750.00 one bedroom ,no frills

so average people make 135,000

12 x 750= 9000.00
Did I calculate right if 15 % was the income ratio ?????
B.S

In a backwards way they are showing that the average couple pays $1500. It's rare for a single to be the sole income producer for a rental or buying unit.
 
MikeyDB
#11

I learned a lesson eleven years ago about what it is to be a Canadian. That lesson came in the form of a ruptured blood vessel in my brain. Paralyzed partially blind and unable to work, I was being advised by hospital staff to apply for Ontario Disability Support Program benefits immediately.

That lesson came way too late.

I’ve learned that those folk still capable of earning a living loathe and detest those of us confined to wheelchairs and left unable to earn our own keep. Ontarians happily greeted the government of Mike Harris who implemented policies to make damn sure that disabled people would be kept ever mindful of their second-class citizenship. For over ten years the people of Ontario have been either completely un-interested or believe that disabled people…since after all they’re non-contributors in the income tax area of Canadian commerce/government deserve to live dependent on food banks well below the poverty line (LICO’s).

58.9% of my ODSP benefit goes to the landlord and utility companies. I have no cable TV (hardly a necessity certainly) I have a dial-up connection to the Internet…and as someone here at Canadian Content intimated a little while ago…the fact that I spend $15.00 a month on my Internet service that “obviously” I was doing just fine and have no reason to complain. An insightful jab regarding “bandwidth” as this clod put it…..

But I digress….

Canadians tell themselves “I’m a humanitarian who believes that helping the Tsunami victims, the earthquake victims, the homeless in other nations and many other folk around the world is the right thing to do…”

The historical record says it all. If you’re not a Canadian and you’ve experienced a tragic event…then by golly Canadians will dole out the money….

If however you’re a Canadian who’s suffered a disabling condition or disease then….screw you…. you welfare bum!!!

And this is the essence of what it is to be a Canadian. Squawk run around in circles with your arms flapping and hold charity events when a family of Indonesians suffer but feel free to heap disdain and spit on every Canadian who’s been stupid enough to be victimized by a disease or injury. Canadians don’t want to believe they’re greedy and unsympathetic to tragedies that befall our distant neighbors, but who really gives a damn about someone in Canada who experiences a quality of life reduced to that of the disaster victim from a foreign nation?

“Indians”…hell we’ve been handing them money and giving them houses and schools for decades and all they do is Oka, Caledonia, Ipperwash….

“Welfare mooches”….they’re all just too damn lazy to get a job and when they get a few dollars ahead they spend it on booze or drugs….

“Homeless”….Everyone knows that homeless people are mentally deranged and incapable of responsible self-maintenance….these people live the way they do because they want to….

This thread just kills me.

What I didn’t learn is that Canadians will admire you for skimming from the tax coffers and will be happy to continue to pay hefty pensions to people who’ve lied and stolen from them but hey…we draw the line at lazy no-account disabled people….

What I didn’t learn is that throughout my working life I should have been charging far more than I did for everything I did….. I shouldn’t have cared about my friends my neighbours my community….I should have preyed on them to be a solid Canadian….

I should have made sure that I invested in commercial enterprises that reaped huge rewards at the expense of foreign men women and children in third world nations…..

I should have kept the donations and charity contributions I made for nearly fifty years to “worthy-causes” because in the final analysis my fellow countrymen regard me as a burden and a leech on their pay-cheques…

I’ve written I can’t really tell you how many letters to MPs, business leaders, everyone and anyone who could make a difference….

More often than not, I get no response of any kind.

Some responses I do get from government are lists of legislation and rules regarding how it’s perfectly OK for the disabled in Canada to live second-class lives and how my situation and the situation of thousands of other disabled Canadians reflects the desires of Canadians in general to make sure their taxes are protected from us scheming and blatantly dishonest cripples and handi-caps, aboriginal people and the sick and injured. Would I join an Islamic terrorist group, and FLQ terrorist cell, or some other group in Canada that would work to tear down the system?

In a heartbeat.





 
#juan
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post


I learned a lesson eleven years ago about what it is to be a Canadian. That lesson came in the form of a ruptured blood vessel in my brain. Paralyzed partially blind and unable to work, I was being advised by hospital staff to apply for Ontario Disability Support Program benefits immediately.
That lesson came way too late.
I’ve learned that those folk still capable of earning a living loathe and detest those of us confined to wheelchairs and left unable to earn our own keep. Ontarians happily greeted the government of Mike Harris who implemented policies to make damn sure that disabled people would be kept ever mindful of their second-class citizenship. For over ten years the people of Ontario have been either completely un-interested or believe that disabled people…since after all they’re non-contributors in the income tax area of Canadian commerce/government deserve to live dependent on food banks well below the poverty line (LICO’s).
58.9% of my ODSP benefit goes to the landlord and utility companies. I have no cable TV (hardly a necessity certainly) I have a dial-up connection to the Internet…and as someone here at Canadian Content intimated a little...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post


Mike, I can certainly understand why you might be bitter about the many inequities facing the disabled. The system is most definitely unfair for those who's ability to work and support themselves has been taken through no fault of their own. I wish I could change the system in the next minute, but I can't. I think, on another thread, you mentioned your children, and this implies a family. Do you get much help from your family? I don't begrudge you any help you can find fron the government at any level.


 
MikeyDB
#13
Thanks Juan

Don't get me wrong here I'm not fishing for sympathy, Just trying to establish that maybe sometimes when people contribute to discussion forums they really do know a little about what they're talking about and how other people might feel.

My kids are grown married and gone....and doing well enough I suppose...

Thanks
 
Jay
#14
Quote:

I’ve learned that those folk still capable of earning a living loathe and detest those of us confined to wheelchairs and left unable to earn our own keep.



I'm having a hard time understanding where you got this idea from out of the few posts in this thread or what in this thread bothers you so much.

I don't feel that way, but I do think the civil service in Ontario is taking the tax payer for a ride...money that could be better spent on situations as you have described.

I think a lot of people in Ontario feel that way, hence Mike Harris and his fight with the Teachers unions (as an example).
 
MikeyDB
#15
And who won that fight Jay?
 
Andem
#16
I'm still trying to figure out where this 9.5K $ figure came from. Somebody in Barrie probably couldn't even live in the slums for that. Maybe they're including the (assumingly) low rents in the NWT? :P
 
Jay
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

And who won that fight Jay?

I suppose it depends on how you look at it, but I say the Liberals won it and their not giving up any of the money they are taking from the system.

Apparently paying high school teachers 85K a year (top salary) and having the provincial government guarantee their pension is all about the "kids".
 
Kreskin
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

I'm still trying to figure out where this 9.5K $ figure came from. Somebody in Barrie probably couldn't even live in the slums for that. Maybe they're including the (assumingly) low rents in the NWT? :P

I think what they're saying is that is the average contribution per person, however it takes more than one to buy/rent. It's not indicative of the actual cost per unit, only per person within a unit.
 
MikeyDB
#19
How you’re prepared to let the vulnerable among you live.

Jay

I don’t know how computer ‘savvy” you may be but maybe you’ve heard of “interrupt requests”, an event that interrupts what it is that the CPU and various subsystems are “doing” to have a task executed. Think of it this way if it helps…

You’re watching a TV program and the phone rings….

If you decide to answer the phone, this event has “interrupted” your program watching.

When I participate in online forums, sometimes I run across a conversation in progress that piques my interest….

If I have some sense of the psychological or philosophical or metaphysical dynamic involved and/or exhibited in this observed dialogue I sometimes interject an opinion that is admittedly sometimes less directed at the topical content than it is in response to some dynamic perceived as taking place in through and during this segment of dialogue.

A dialogue that concerns/involves the perceptions and situations of the average Canadian with respect to how much of their income is gobbled-up by the expense of living indoors frequently skips over the relatively small number of Canadians who find themselves in very serious situations with respect to being able to maintain that luxury.

A lot of poor folk don’t have computers or access to the Internet. A great many poor folk have neither the time or energy to devote to something other than finding something to eat or a place to sleep. It makes this lesser number of Canadians easier to ignore and allows them to retain their invisibility.

Pan handlers can be ignored or depending on the neighbourhood…call the police and they’ll drive them off to the edge of town where maybe they’ll freeze to death….SOP in some western Canadian enclaves.

It’s a matter of perspective Jay.
 
snowles
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by temperanceView Post

That deoes not make sense ,,even rent gear to income ratios are 30 % and mortgage is 32-36 % of income ,where did the figure come from ,

Renters in Ottawa pay average 750.00 one bedroom ,no frills

so average people make 135,000

12 x 750= 9000.00
Did I calculate right if 15 % was the income ratio ?????
B.S

That's exactly right. I lived in Ottawa in two separate apartments with my wife; both were one bedroom, one living room, half-kitchen (if that) and a small bathroom, and cost between $750-$770 a month (about $9000-$9270 annually). If I wanted to park my car outside, it would have cost us an extra $50 a month. Bus passes cost $65 each per month. Considering it was small, in a somewhat sketchy area (the South Keys area on Downpatrick Rd.) and we had to pay for cable, internet, phone service and everything else, it was a pretty expensive venture to be an off-campus student (and strangely, it was cheap compared to living on campus). It was the cheapest apartment in that area for that price range; considering how little students have we were just scraping by; I knew of other students in that building that had 4 people in the same size room just to make ends meet.
 
MikeyDB
#21
It's always been a case of the "truth" being lost amid the wash of whining by those whose financial and educational experiences and opportunities have been subsidized. It's taken a personal acquaintanceship with reality dramatically altered in the space of a few seconds (stroke) to appreciate how phoney and artificial the world actually is.

Luckily terrorism is the ultimate equal opportunity employer and with any luck those who've got it coming will get it.
 
snowles
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by JayView Post

I suppose it depends on how you look at it, but I say the Liberals won it and their not giving up any of the money they are taking from the system.

Apparently paying high school teachers 85K a year (top salary) and having the provincial government guarantee their pension is all about the "kids".

...I think a lot of people in Ontario feel that way, hence Mike Harris and his fight with the Teachers unions (as an example).

Yes, and paying MPPs 103K a year (top salary) and having the provincial government guarentee their pension is A-OK, as it's all about the "people". At least the teacher's union invests their money into some of the largest companies in Ontario and nationally.

Futher, there are next to no teachers in that bracket of salary anymore. To do so, you have to be working at a private or a Catholic school, in an A-4 classification, with at least 11 full years experience. Thanks to early retirement packages and higher than usual enrollment in teacher's education post-graduate programs, it's not an issue.

I also seem to remember the majority of people being supportive of the teacher's union, after his little dances with the province's other large unions and the weeks of endless strikes by workers. I also remember how the next election turned out after Harris chicken-tailed it out of there and dumped that steaming pile onto Ernie Eves - it still stinks enough that after the past 4 years, Dithering Dalton will still win the provincial election.
 
MikeyDB
#23
Good Ole Erie Eaves....

When all the conservatives whined about how much they were paying for electricity good ole Ernie capped the rates and now we all get to pay off that debt today on our electricity bills in Ontario...

Conservatism is about protecting the status quo and that means make sure the rubes don't get irritated when reality doesn't please them...
 
Kreskin
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Luckily terrorism is the ultimate equal opportunity employer and with any luck those who've got it coming will get it.

Mikey, I can appreciate your concerns. My mother in law was in a car accident, half body paralyzed and serious head trauma. She's on disability pension and had similar government experiences. It really bothers me when those who have alot believe they've earned it and those who don't just haven't worked hard enough. Pompous arrogance at its worst.

I do have an issue with you here though. The promoting of terrorism. Not only is that not condoned from a forum policy perspective, it's not right.
 
MikeyDB
#25
It's only a difference of where the troops are sent Kreskin.

The British and the French sent theirs to Canada to kill natives, we send ours to Afghanistan to kill Afghanis....
 
Tonington
#26
The context of those two situations is completely different.
 
Jay
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by snowlesView Post

Yes, and paying MPPs 103K a year (top salary) and having the provincial government guarentee their pension is A-OK, as it's all about the "people". At least the teacher's union invests their money into some of the largest companies in Ontario and nationally.

Quote: Originally Posted by snowlesView Post


Futher, there are next to no teachers in that bracket of salary anymore. To do so, you have to be working at a private or a Catholic school, in an A-4 classification, with at least 11 full years experience. Thanks to early retirement packages and higher than usual enrollment in teacher's education post-graduate programs, it's not an issue.

I also seem to remember the majority of people being supportive of the teacher's union, after his little dances with the province's other large unions and the weeks of endless strikes by workers. I also remember how the next election turned out after Harris chicken-tailed it out of there and dumped that steaming pile onto Ernie Eves - it still stinks enough that after the past 4 years, Dithering Dalton will still win the provincial election.

Yes the teachers pension plan does invest in Ontario etc....they have the financial wherewithal to do what ever the hell they want.

There are plenty of A-4 teachers around and my wife is working on hers right now. Of all her colleagues I don't know one that isn't (I don’t know them all either). Reaching your 10 year salary cap isn't a huge feat and lots of them do live that long. How many years ago was it that Harris retired off those teachers...six seven years ago?

You need a 4 year BA and an upgrade course to reach this level....3 year BA, I'm not exactly sure if they can reach the top level, but it isn't far off the mark. You leave university at 25 and put ten years in and your making 85K(give or take a bit) at 35 and slide in another 20 years of this with constant raises, your not exactly poor now are you, quit well off if you ask me, especially if your teaching grade 9 history....

Mike Harris won two elections before he retired. If you remember everyone supporting the teachers you probably live in Jack Layton’s riding. Handing Harris another majority government after bill 160 simply proves the power of the silent majority in Ontario at the time. The union had an illegal strike, butted heads with Ontario and lost; Harris did give into some demands mind you.

Many people aren't under the impression we elect governments to enter into negotiations with the teachers union and many people feel the civil service in Ontario is taking us for a ride.

All I'm doing is pointing out that these services are dipping a little to far into the pockets of the province etc, and this money might be better spent else where.

I mean really, you don't think teachers vote NDP and Liberal because they want less money in their pockets.
 
MikeyDB
#28

Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

The context of those two situations is completely different.



Tonnington

I would agree that there are contextual differences, but look beyond those differences.....

A short while ago our government decided it appropriate to apologize to Chinese who paid the head tax to come to Canada ... after these people were used by the Canadian Pacific Railway and the government of that time to build the binding "link" to secure the Dominion of Canada.....


The very same people who benefited from use of the Chinese as virtual slave labour decided that a head tax was something appropriate to demand of Chinese seeking entry to Canada…..

And Canadians are willing to tolerate and a few right here at Canadian Content think it inappropriate to both apologize to the Chinese community and fear the precedent of “paying” in the name of addressing a social wrongdoing by our government and the people of the time!

And Stephen Harper and Canadians have the temerity to suggest that we can point a finger at China today and chastise them for their “human rights” abuses???

When injustice is permitted as a “necessary evil” (perfectly acceptable at some particularly convenient time) in the name of some social philosophy or in the name of “security” or any of any number of unjust “rationales”, that’s a reflection not of the great difficulties of building a nation or trying times faced by pioneers and early settlers but the preparedness to tolerate if not embrace discrimination contempt and disdain for minorities and “outsiders”.

The injustices suffered by the Chinese, the injustices suffered by Germans Japanese and Italians in the name of national security during wartime….all these phenomena are part of the Canadian gestalt.

Why is anyone surprised that the poor the disabled and the elderly, aboriginals, homosexuals… any group that can be labelled identified and preyed upon by the “good” people of Canada are fair game….

It’s how we’ve done things here in Canada forever, the only difference between the context of THEN Mr.Tonnington and the NOW context is that we’ve found a different group of fellow human beings to marginalize…while of course Canadians continue to happily ignore injustices to and among our own people right here in Canada….miles from Afghanistan and Iraq or Israel and Palestine….

Canadians it seems are happy to live in a society and a culture that can situationally do away with human rights in those cases where the alternative would cost money they’d rather keep. Whether that’s the infamy of the head tax or the concentration camps of WWII and for decades and today the better solution is marginalizing the disabled the poor and the elderly…..

It’s the way we do things here in Canada dontcha know!

Load up another plane with combat troops for Afghanistan….we’ll show those savages how “good” people behave….
 
temperance
#29
Some body coundnt live on 9.5 ka year

Lets ask 220,000 physically and mentally challeged people in Ontario how they live on 9 -10 thousand a year ,Like Mike said Hard lesson , and to get to that point most had to live on Wefare rates for a year to prove they counldnt work which is about 6 ,000 a year

Imagine going from a nice 25-35 thousand dollars a year job to being disabled (having to deal with lose of limb ,eye site ,what ever ) and live 25 % below poverty rate ,while you prove to ODSP you cant work

Yep, we care for our own ,let them beg at food banks for sugared goods ,(belive me when thats all there is they are thank ful ,the problem ends up being when the diabetic coma costs the hostipal system more money than it would have to properly feed that person .Prevention is lost in the Ontario Disabilty Program
But we need to send money to 3 rd world countires

then How about the Ministry of Community Services (ontario) they have 1 chairperson for odsp and Ow but 9 for commuicatiom and marketing --who are they marketing to the people that get the 9 thousand a year

I never really paid much attention to our social secuity nets ,until a friend ended up on ODSP at 25 years old ,Iam shocked on how he has to live ,and we do nothing about ,I pray people in other countires that look up to u.s as humanitarian get the real goods on what really happens here
 

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