Should seperatists be allowed second chances??


Machjo
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox

Anyone wanting to speak the language of their choice? :P

Sure. But you have to be able to learn it first. And if failing to learn a language after ten years of study means that you fall into the have-nots category, then it's not really a choice, is it?

I rmember teaching English in a Quebec highscool years ago. And we were talking about bill 101. All the teachers said that if they had the individual choice, they'd send their kid to English school because of its economic advantages (English is just too difficult to learn as a foreign language for most of them). but they all said, without exception, that they supported bill 101 precisely for that reason. If everyone could choose English, they al would, and French would die withina few generations except maybe as the family lanuage or the one spoken at the cafe. But French would certainly dye as the language of science and technology.

So choice is elusive. What is choice? Sometimes people choose to remove choice from themselves. And that is wehre the sovereignist movement comes in. They feel suffocated by English in North America and so try to produce opportunities in their own native language and so beleive that sovereignty could somehow solve this problem. After all, putting food on the table isn't a choice. Learning a language might be a choice or luxory for a native speaker of English, but for the rest of the world, learning English IS NOT A CHOICE in the real sense of the word.
 
Machjo
#32
Or how about this, Five. We can all speak what we want, and the government can hire thousands of interpretors? Who will pay for it? Language is not about choice, it's about communication within a particular society. Without a common language, that society ceases to be. And in Quebec, they're English is just as miserable as the French of most English Canadians.
 
FiveParadox
#33
Yet the system works, in my opinion.

Simultaneous translation in our federal institutions serves the purpose — federal services are offered in both languages without reservation, and people are free to learn either English, or French, or both (just as I am attempting to learn both languages). I don't think that there is as much of a communicatory disaster as is being implied here.
 
Machjo
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox

Yet the system works, in my opinion.

Simultaneous translation in our federal institutions serves the purpose — federal services are offered in both languages without reservation, and people are free to learn either English, or French, or both (just as I am attempting to learn both languages). I don't think that there is as much of a communicatory disaster as is being implied here.

I've tought secondary students in Quebec, and they (nor most teachers in the school except the English ones) could'nt communicate effectively in English.

Now immagine them watching teh news and seeing their own Prime Minister on TV, and listening to him either dubbed or with subtext! their own Prime Minister! This makes them feel like outright foreigners to their own PM. I lived in Charlevoix County, and that's the heart of the sovereignist movement in the province. I think I met a handful of federalists and that was it!

Why do you think Bill 101 was passed? Because the french speakers couldn't even find work in Montreal at the time! Many still feel closed off form the rest of Canada in that they know damn well that thye'd have a hard time finding a job in Montreal, and would find it impossible to find a job even as a dishwasher in Ottawa unless they learn English well. but here's the problem. Charlevoix is 1.5 hours North of Quebec city. and even in Quebec city, nearly all can speak French. Only in some parts of Montreal might they need English. But that and Toronto are where the money is. So you can immagine the anger when all the money is in English Canada and they are blocked from it due to the language barrier. That provides lots of fuel to the flames of Quebec nationalism. In the end, a united nation needs a common language. And it must be a languaeg that all can learn within a reasonable amount of time. To need translators between compatriots is a clear indication that they are not compatriots except in law only.
 
FiveParadox
#35
I don't think that the sovereigntists in the Province of Québec would respond with favour to the suggestion that perhaps instead of a province (or nation, as the case may be) where they can speak their own language, that we should rather force them to correspond in something else entirely.
 
Machjo
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox

I don't think that the sovereigntists in the Province of Québec would respond with favour to the suggestion that perhaps instead of a province (or nation, as the case may be) where they can speak their own language, that we should rather force them to correspond in something else entirely.

My apologies, Five. It appears there is a misunderstanding then.

So let me explain more clearly.

Since an auxlang could be learnt by most students within 2-3 years, this would mean that most students, should they start to learn Esperanto at the age of eight, could learn it to fluency by the age of ten or eleven at the most, after which they could start to learn the other official language should they wish to do so. And those who find Esperanto too difficult? Well then obviously they'll never succeed with Frenc or English as a foreing language anyway.

Now as for political issues, sure we could keep English and French in Parliament and federal government establishments if that is what the electorate want.

But I'm sure you'll agree with me that the government cannot provide a free interpreter for a Quebecois who's job hunting in toronto. Or a translator who can translate his resume for free. there's a limit to everything and interpreters are expensive. So with Esperanto as a common language across Canada, suddenly this job seeker could find a job without the assistance of an interpreter. If he could learn English well, bonus. If not, then he could still use Esperanto. that way, he could genuinely feel that Canada is his nation. As for parliament, well having interpreters there makes it look more like the UN. Not so personal when you can't speak directly to teh person. That could be anadded advantage too. those MP's who could speak Englsih and French well would ahve no problem. But when in the course of a heated debate an MP who hasn't mastered both of these languages well wants to ensure he's clearly understood without potential mess ups from an interpreter, would have the option of switching directly tot eh auxlang for everyone to understand without interpreter, along with tone of voice, emotion etc which the interpreter can nevr fuly relay.

When I was in Beijing in 2004 I met a UN interpreter, and here's how he said he could distinguish a good interpreter form a new one:

The experienced interpreter doesn't waste his time trying to interpret what he doesn't understand; he just lets it go. the inexperienced one will stay stuck on it and thus lose the whole conversation.

So if this happens at the UN, I'm sure it happens in the House too.
 
dekhqonbacha
#37
In the world of globalization, talking about separatism is rediculous.

Hurrahh for Europe.
 
Finder
#38
Well when I was a teenager I started as a Progressive Conservative supporter, but soon after grade 10 I went to the extreme left for a long time. I believed in Marxism, but as I grew older and wiser I totally started to disagree with marxism. So well I left those radical parties and joined up with the New Democrats. I've kept a soft socialist stance but I believe in both capitalism and socialism now and nothing anyone could say to me could ever make me believe in Marxism again. So yeah people make mistakes in life but they always deserve to be able to make informed and educated changes in their lifes. Such as "second chances".
 

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