Should seperatists be allowed second chances??

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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I was just wondering, as a former seperatist in Canada, but this could apply anywhere in the world where a seperatist movement is going on.

Does a seperatist deserve a second chance if he or she decides that seperatism isn't a good thing?? Especially if they were a young teenager when they were a seperatist (around 11-16).
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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Separatist Reform

Yes, Jersay; so long as one decides, in their heart, that they no longer endeavour for the separation of whatever that body may have been, then I think that anyone deserves a second chance. In the case of someone particularly young, they are prone to the sentiments of their parents and the influential media, so they cannot be blamed for their positions in relation to political issues, in my opinion.
 

Jersay

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Dec 1, 2005
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My parents were ardent Federalists. I just got this feeling inside me for my personally to have Quebec seperate Canada.

Oopps .. I wasn't suppose to say I was a seperatist.

Typo about seperatists, and federalists.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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You had exposed your sovereigntist past in another thread, Jersay. ;)

Seriously though, I don't think it's a big deal — it's the present that matters, right? For example, there are accusations that Her Excellency the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean, C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D., the Governor General, was at one time sovereigntist, or at the very least sympathetic to the sovereigntist cause. If Her Excellency isn't a showcase story of mainstream Canadians giving someone a second chance, then I don't know what to tell you.
 

Jersay

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Dec 1, 2005
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Oh yeah, almost forgot.

Your right about Jean, but what about the big protests when she was selected. And if Harper was incharge at the time he would probably not have selected her. He would have probably selected Peyton Manning or someone.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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I think that the appointment of Her Excellency was one of the best things that the previous Government of Canada had done. I know, for one, that I think that she has done far more for the unity of the country than the Prime Minister, at the time, had done.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Agreed.

But besides me, what about in other countries, should the same thing apply, or is it even allowed to apply.

If you live in a town in with a seperatist, in some of these deep rooted countries, could a seperatist be given a second chance?
 

Semperfi_dani

Electoral Member
Nov 1, 2005
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RE: Should seperatists be

Of course anyone is entitled to change their political beliefs. I have done so myself. Noone should have to be "forgiven" for having beliefs, no matter how contriversial. You & anyone else has the right to view things differently.

Keep in mind the context of when you had those thoughts. There were alot of legitimate arguments for seperation. I mean, anyone can argue that the Constitution was created without cooperation, that the Meech Lake accord failed because the idea of "distinct society" and "special status" has a different context to English Canada than it does to French Canada".

Even in deep rooted areas, such as Ireland for example, as long as there is a spirit of cooperation, than seperatists can be forgiven. But convincing people who were maybe directly affected (ie people whose families were murdered) might be more difficult.

I think it depends if people are willing to look past it. Perhaps the biggest question that should be asked is why were things allowed to get so bad that people wanted to sepearte, and were prepared to go to any measure to do so? How can a country and its perfectly rational citizens allow misunderstandings grow so much as to create a legitimate movement?
 

Jersay

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I think it depends if people are willing to look past it. Perhaps the biggest question that should be asked is why were things allowed to get so bad that people wanted to sepearte, and were prepared to go to any measure to do so? How can a country and its perfectly rational citizens allow misunderstandings grow so much as to create a legitimate movement?

It doesn't have to be language at all I find it has to do with political, maybe not at Canada-Quebec's case but in other cases. The minority that wants to seperate doesn't have enough political power.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Jersay said:
Do people agree that its usually political for seperatism in most countries??

I would say ethno-political in some cases.

All ethno-linguistic groups want to feel equal (not just legally but in actual fact) to the larger groups. From that standpoint, the larger group has to find a solution to making the smaller group equal indeed, and again, not just legally equal on paper. I can see three major ways in which this can be done:

1. All to English. Bear in mind, however, that since English is a difficult language to learn, most of the non-native speakers shall have failed to learn it adequately even after nine years of study. This causes resentment, naturally as a new class of haves and have nots is born. One solution to this is economic (i.e., the native speakers of English the world over are expected to finance the financial burden for the rest of the world to learn THEIR language. In reality, however, the native speakers of English (and rightfully so) can legitimately argue that they're not the ones forcing the rest of the country/world/whatever to learn English. In the Canadian context, for instance, the English speakers can simply point the finger to the Quebec government and say that they are the ones forcing French Canadians to learn English. Despite this, however, the Quebecois might still feel envious of the English speakers' distinct advantage on the world stage.

2. Multilingualism: This ould mean that all of Canada's indigenous languages are official. Expensive indeed, but certainly equal. So we end up with equality and a bust budget.

3. Esperantism: Not necessarily Esperanto, but any easy to learn second language. Inexpensive (sine it means only one language for the nation so no translation expenses for government, plus easy to learn so little investment of time and money in education too). And equal. All Canadians would be expected to master it as their second language. This woud mean that the government would hire whoever made the effort to learn their second language regardless of ethno-linguistic background. The military would likweise be unified uner one language. As would all Canadians at the grassroots form workers to tourists.

Without this sense of equality, some do come to believe that somehow separation could achieve this equality without having a clear notion of how this will occur. After all, even if Quebec does separate from Canada, it would still face the Englsih language all around it. Even Italy had to pass laws i 1993 to protect itself from the English language. It's already a sovereing nation. So sovereignty does not guarantee protection against foreign language hegemony in the new world order. Only sound education policy can do that.

Instead of separating from Canada, Quebec would be better off adopting the Italian education model. This involves giving students in school the option of whether or not to study English and at the same time actively promoting other foreing language options in its schools. The MEQ could really learn from its Italian counterpart here and thus eliminate the need to separate to protect its language and culture.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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However, with that last choice that you asked with Quebec they want to keep the French language available and if you do what you have suggested, they will complain that English are trying to assimilate them.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Jersay said:
However, with that last choice that you asked with Quebec they want to keep the French language available and if you do what you have suggested, they will complain that English are trying to assimilate them.

Not really. French Canadian could still keep French at the provincial level, but the auxiliary language at the federal. Considering that worldwide French would be spoken more than Canada's auxiliary language, that language would actually present itself as less of a threat to the French language than would English. Add to that that part of the resentment can also come from people who should have been studying English for the last nine years and still can't use it. An easy-to-learn auxiliary language would be a welcome help for them, thus not making them feel shut out from the rest of Canada.

Add to that taht in the event that French Canada feels less threatened by English, then they might ease up a little on the indigenous people and allow them to develop their own languages (after all, the auxiliary language could then be used as a common second language for nationwide communication, thus allowing for more native language diversity without having Canada fall apart like a tower of babel.

Thus both languages could each serve their respective functions (the native language for identity, the auxiliary language for communication).
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Besides, let's face it. If you had to spend nine years of your life to learn English and still failed to learn it, and at the same time were aware of the great advantage English-speakers have in the world, you'd probably feel a little peeved too. And that emotion can translate itself irrationally into nationalism and sovereignism. Thus if we should eliminate the perceived need for soverignty in order to achieve linguistic equality, then that would go far in breaking down the walls which devide us.