The flood is biblical event!


Onebody
#1
Certain people who believe in the theory of evolution and do not believe that the Flood had ever taken place have often regarded the Flood as a mere legend.

However, it is good to ask whether the Flood really did take place. If we were to make practical observations of the ground and the fossils found therein, and traditional folklore, they would refer quite often to the Flood. These indicate that a large mass destruction had taken place in the immediate past. The following passages will examine these different sources of information, which refer to the Flood.
koti.phnet.fi/elohim/theflood.html (external - login to view)
 
NosyNed
#2
From your referenced site:

Quote:

. A considerable part of the remains is from large animals such as from hairy rhinoceroses, giant lions, beavers, buffaloes, musk, oxen, mammoths, and hairy elephants, which have become extinct. That is why it is clear that the climate of Alaska was much warmer before it became frozen.

I haven't read the whole thing yet but here in two sentences it's illogic shows.

How would one conclude from hairy rhino, hairy elephants must oxen etc that the climate was much warmer.

The reference to the Karoo formation neglects to suggest how this number of animals could live at the required density rather than having been deposited over a rather long time.

The site then lists a number of mass graves. It neglects the need for all of these (and other) mass graves sites to be deposited at the exact same time. They have not.

They site then discusses fossils. It neglects to inform us of why there is a very particular vertical order of the fossils found and the nature of the animals represented. All the creationists arguments on this issue that I have seen so far are rather funny. (e.g. faster runners, denser animals etc.) They are all so obviously wrong that they are funny.

Quote:

and in addition to this some of them have been found whole and undamaged.

This is in reference to Mammoth remains. I would like to see a reference to the study of such whole and undamaged remains. There are, as far as I know, none in such a fine state of preservation.

One also has to ask why is it just those animals that paleontologists consider to have lived in a cold time and place and very, very recently that are preserved frozen. Since dinosaurs lived (at a very different time) in the same places why are there no frozen dinosaur remains?

I'll stop there. It is clear when one can ask such rather simple questions off the top of ones head that this site has not thought through it's assertions very well. Since these arguments have been ripped up for a long time now any site which still posts them is clearly one that is either willfully ignorant or not entirely honest.


PS -- if you want to discuss these with a number of people (some of them experts (on mammoths for one) see www.evcforum.net (external - login to view)
 
the caracal kid
#3
good post ned.

why does this stuff just never die off? (rhetorical, nobody need answer).
 
NosyNed
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

good post ned.

why does this stuff just never die off? (rhetorical, nobody need answer).

I did say "willful ignorance".
 
Reverend Blair
#5
My favourite flood theory is the one about the Black Sea. It doesn't try to prove the bible story true, or even claim a wide-spread global calamity, just explain where the many flood myths came from.

It's never been proven, but the basic theory is that a lot of primitive peoples lived around the Black Sea when it was just a lake. Rising sea levels caused it to flood to its current levels. The people left and spread out. The story of the flood became embellished over many generations to the versions we know today.
 
bhoour
#6
I believe in evolution, and floods. I don't however believe in the bible as being true facts, but epic stories that people wrote and compiled into one book. The bibles version in not posssible and not at all logical.
We all saw this past year the destruction ( fllooding) caused by the tsunami , as well as from various storms (ie: katrina). Perhaps these mass graves were caused by events like these ,and not by one world wide flood. I have yet proof that it was all at once.
There are many possiblities, and to limit it all to one event, is in my eyes like going thru life with blinders on.
 
pastafarian
#7
Two scientists from Columbia University have theorized that about 5500 BC, glacial meltwater began rapidly filling the Mediterranean Sea, which emptied into the Black Sea . They wrote:

"Ten cubic miles of water poured through each day, two hundred times what flows over Niagara Falls. 60,000 square miles of land were flooded.
Each day the Black Sea rose about six inches (15 centimeters), and coastal farms were flooded. Seared into the memories of terrified survivors, the tale of the flood was passed down through the generations and eventually became the Noah story."

Radiocarbon dating of sediments in the Black Sea supports the theory of a freshwater lake inundated by the Black Sea some 7,000 years ago.

Its generally accepted that the authors of the Pentateuch cribbed liberally from older sources like the Epic of Gilgamesh in which we find a Flood story very similar to the Noah myth.
 
Jo Canadian
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by pastafarian

Radiocarbon dating of sediments in the Black Sea supports the theory of a freshwater lake inundated by the Black Sea some 7,000 years ago.

I remember hearing about that. There was also evidence of the flood plain due to certain types of water erosion within the 10 mile area. It has been desribed that the debris that was moved, was moved quite dramatically as there was a certain breaking point for the water levels, and it was like the breaking of dam...except in this case a reeeeeeeeally big one.
 
jimmoyer
#9
National Geographic did a great article on just
that story on the Black Sea flood.
 
Jay
#10
The flood story seems to be a global phenomena.
 
missile
#11
All the ancient cultures have mentioned a "great flood", and they were around eons before the bible was thought of.
 
pastafarian
#12
Quote:

The flood story seems to be a global phenomena

..and for good reason. Humans have always settled near water whenever possible for all the obvious reasons, and what is the greatest risk you face living near water?
 
Jo Canadian
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by missile

All the ancient cultures have mentioned a "great flood", and they were around eons before the bible was thought of.

I could well imagine. North America must've also had quite the Deluge as the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets fully retreated between 15000 and 8000 BCE.
 
Dexter Sinister
#14
I tried to read through the material at that link in the OP, but when I got to the reference to "rhinoceros lizards" I gave up. It's just a list of sites where mass deaths have occurred at various times in the past, with no indication of the dates of these events, no links to legitimate archeological references, nothing to give it any real credibility.

It's true that The Flood is a biblical event, in that it's recorded in the Bible, but the question is whether it's a real event, and the answer to that is certainly no, there was never a global flood. There isn't enough water on the planet to flood the whole place, given its present topography. Every culture has flood tales, but those are readily explicable as local events. A large scale flood would certainly look like the whole world is flooded to a culture without mass communication and transportation systems.

The Black Sea scenario Pastafarian referred to is interesting, and there are a couple of others similar to it. One is the Strait of Gibraltar, which at one time may have been a spectacular waterfall as the Atlantic poured in to the Mediterranean basin. Another is the Bab al Mandab waterway between the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea, which also may have been a spectacular waterfall in the relatively recent past. Both would have produced fairly rapid flooding of what were areas of human settlement, if they're recent enough. I don't have the dates on those, unfortunately. I'll poke around and see what I can find. If my memory is correct, Orson Scott Card wrote a pretty good SF story based on the Bab al Mandab scenario, and he does his research pretty well. Wish my memory was good enough to remember the name...

Those events are tectonically related to the movements of Africa with respect to the Eurasian land mass. The Red Sea is part of the rifting system that extends down into east Africa all the way to Mozambique and up into Turkey. I think at one time both the Strait of Gibraltar and the Bab al Mandab were closed to the sea; now they're not, so there must have been a time when they opened as Africa torqued around. Or maybe it was the rise in sea level at the end of the last ice age. Or both. It's fun to speculate, but I think I'll go look for more data.
 
Jay
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by pastafarian

Quote:

The flood story seems to be a global phenomena

..and for good reason. Humans have always settled near water whenever possible for all the obvious reasons, and what is the greatest risk you face living near water?

Mosquitoes?
 
Reverend Blair
#16
Quote:

Two scientists from Columbia University have theorized that about 5500 BC, glacial meltwater began rapidly filling the Mediterranean Sea, which emptied into the Black Sea

That's the one I was thinking of. There has been some work done by linguists and anthropologists (I think the thing I read was by an anthropologist specialising in mythology) expanding on that theory a bit, and it seems to fit the pattern of how language, cultures and mythology change as people migrate.



Quote:

and for good reason. Humans have always settled near water whenever possible for all the obvious reasons, and what is the greatest risk you face living near water?

Running out of ice to keep the beer in the boat cold.
 
pastafarian
#17
Quote:

pastafarian wrote:
Quote:
The flood story seems to be a global phenomena


..and for good reason. Humans have always settled near water whenever possible for all the obvious reasons, and what is the greatest risk you face living near water?


Mosquitoes?


No, Jay, be serious. It's personal watercraft :P .
 
Jay
#18
 
Dexter Sinister
#19
Aw, the facts destroy some fun ideas.

According to what I've found in the last 20 minutes, the Strait of Gibraltar last opened about 5 million years ago (the most recent of over a dozen openings and closings), and the Bab al Mandab about 6.7 million years ago. They'd certainly have been spectacular waterfalls alright, but it's unlikely that those events have anything to do with human flood tales, unless homo sapiens has been around a lot longer than we currently think.
 
bhoour
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Aw, the facts destroy some fun ideas.

They'd certainly have been spectacular waterfalls alright, but it's unlikely that those events have anything to do with human flood tales, unless homo sapiens has been around a lot longer than we currently think.

I recently read a book Martian Genisis, that suggest just that. That we have been around longer than anyone can imagine. I found the information quite interesting. It blows alot of what we currently believe about human evolution, out of the water. Gives you a completely different view of things.

 
Summer
#21
Sounds like an interesting book, Bhoour.
 
no1important
#22
I always believed we were transplanted on this planet from another for the grey's to expeirement on us.
 
pastafarian
#23
As someone who was in Winnipeg in !997, I'll address the thread topic this way: not always!
 
Reverend Blair
#24
Quote:

As someone who was in Winnipeg in !997, I'll address the thread topic this way: not always!

heh, heh...I flew to Vancouver on the Sunday night and my wife called first thing Mondy morning to say the water was running backwards in the ditches. I called my boss from the hotel and told him I was catching the first flight back.

Throwing sandbags was much preferable to dealing with Doug the slug.
 
Papachongo
#25
Quote:

I always believed we were transplanted on this planet from another for the grey's to expeirement on us.

Maybe the Raelians are right?

Oh thats a creepy thought.
 
Reverend Blair
#26
Quote:

Maybe the Raelians are right?

Oh thats a creepy thought.

Even worse, Eric von Danniken would be right. I've spent my adult life watching his pseudo-science and waiting for the punchline.
 
pastafarian
#27
Quote:

Throwing sandbags was much preferable to dealing with Doug the slug.

Well, having both tossed sandbags and drunk beer and danced with Doug and the Slugs in Winnipeg, I'd say the latter was preferable, if not quite as satisfying.
 
Reverend Blair
#28
Doug and the Slugs are quite a different matter than Doug the Slug was. He was the worst boss I've ever had, and I've had some doozies.
 
pastafarian
#29
Well, I figured it was something of the kind, but I reckon I'd be waiting a few billion years for another opportunity to mention those two experiences in context in the same post.
 
Ocean Breeze
#30
let's look at the original statement for a moment.......


"the flood is a biblical event".........ok.

so what is "biblical"?? Does that mean it only happened in the bible??? as in within that context??

seems a flood is a natural event ......as in nature's causes. Think: Katrina.
 

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