Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

no more drugs

#1Feb 17th, 2013

Many of us probably remember the horrific fatal shooting last year by Calgary, right b4 Xmas where the boyfriend Derek Jensen drove his car into the vehicle in which his girlfriend was in, along with 3 of her other friends all on their way to drive 2 boys to the airport so they could go home to PEI for Xmas. They were going to be professional baseball players.

When Shayna stopped the car after he rammed them on the highway he shot all 4, then he killed himself

Thankfully, one managed to live (Shayna, who was not the former girlfriend)

I was disappointed to learn that tox reports are not made public and are not released when the perp is dead.

"RCMP say the investigation into the murders is not over. They are conducting toxicology tests on Derek Jensen's body but will not be releasing the results because no charges will be laid.

Read more: Funeral held for shooting victim | CTV Calgary News

I did wonder if he suffered a side effect of a legal mind altering drug....

Last night W5 aired the story .... It was watching the story that I heard for the first time that the reporter on W5 said that Derek Jensen had been on antipsychotics.................................... .................................................. ................................................

In this sad story we did hear of mind altering drug use, but in many crimes there are no reports ever talked about or released so the public never gets to read how many crimes are being committed while on mind altering drugs that carry the side effect of suicidal homicidal ideation...violnt behavioréagression... sounds classic too me..

Sadly W5 never mentioned what side effects can be caused by antipsychotic drugs.....

gerryh

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

what's your solution?

no more drugs

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

I always think that solutions are found with awareness, education, thus numbers...

The more people who become aware of a problem, the bigger chance we have of finding a good solution...

Sadly, Gerry, I personally think we are only at the `bringing awareness` stage.

If the public start speaking up and demanding these reports whether charges re laid or not, the more we will learn..

If society was seeing all these types of crimes were being done by people on legal, pharmaceuticals (antidepressanst and antipsychotics) would something have to improve somewehreÉ I would personally hope so.. at last thats the way I see it..

Cliffy

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

I completely agree that there is a problem with pharmaceutical drugs being over prescribed for mental health issues.

But I think that one thread on the subject is sufficient. Perhaps the mods could amalgamate all of no more drugs posts into one like they did with china's.

gerryh

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

I always think that solutions are found with awareness, education, thus numbers...

The more people who become aware of a problem, the bigger chance we have of finding a good solution...

Sadly, Gerry, I personally think we are only at the `bringing awareness` stage.

If the public start speaking up and demanding these reports whether charges re laid or not, the more we will learn..

If society was seeing all these types of crimes were being done by people on legal, pharmaceuticals (antidepressanst and antipsychotics) would something have to improve somewehreÉ I would personally hope so.. at last thats the way I see it..

You didn't answer the question. YOU are the one whining and bitching about how terrible these drugs are. What is your solution? Or do you not have a solution? Are you just one of those people that whine and bitch about everything and expect others to come up with solutions to THEIR PERCEIVED problems?

no more drugs

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

You didn't answer the question. YOU are the one whining and bitching about how terrible these drugs are. What is your solution? Or do you not have a solution? Are you just one of those people that whine and bitch about everything and expect others to come up with solutions to THEIR PERCEIVED problems?

lol Gerry,

I thought I did answer your question.. I will try again..

I dont see myself as a whiner and complainer....

I see myself as an educator who tries to share information to help society....

I told you how I see a "solution" being achieved which is by bringing awareness..

I wrote that bringing awareness is the first step in achieving a solution and at this point in time, I feel that awareness hasnt been achieved yet.

I feel that forums are a great place to bring awareness and direct others (who are receptive) to information they may not have known about.

The information and opinions I have brought may change or help one other person be more informed so that they may end up making different decisions that may better impact their furture.. If this was the case, then we could say it is the beginning of a solution in the right direction...

It would be foolish to think one person comes to a forum and states a solutions for a huge problem, not many know exists..!

Thanks for reading Gerry!

gerryh

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

The only thing I have seen from you, so far, is unsubstantiated claims concerning drugs and violence.

no more drugs

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

The only thing I have seen from you, so far, is unsubstantiated claims concerning drugs and violence.

Why do you say my claims are unsubstantiated? The claims of violence (murder and suicide) on antidepressanst/antipsychotics (drugs) have been alleged by reporters and family in every story I brought..I provided links as well..

This thread is to inform you that many crimes have happened where we as the public will never know what was on the tox report because charges werent laid so the report is never made public...

Maybe you didnt read my posts?? You dont seem to have a good understanding of what i wrote... ?

lone wolf

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Until someone perfects tailor-made pharmacology, trial and error is the best we have. Some people aren't happy in their chemical straitjackets and some couldn't live a near normal life without them. There are no easy answers.

gerryh

#10

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

Why do you say my claims are unsubstantiated? The claims of violence (murder and suicide) on antidepressanst/antipsychotics (drugs) have been alleged by reporters and family in every story I brought..I provided links as well..

This thread is to inform you that many crimes have happened where we as the public will never know what was on the tox report because charges werent laid so the report is never made public...

Maybe you didnt read my posts?? You dont seem to have a good understanding of what i wrote... ?

You haven't posted anything to back up your accusations. Post proof that the drugs were directly responsible for the people getting violent. Everything so far has been circumstantial.

no more drugs

#11

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

You haven't posted anything to back up your accusations. Post proof that the drugs were directly responsible for the people getting violent. Everything so far has been circumstantial.

Wait a minute Gerr...

Do you agree that homicidal and suicidal ideation, loss of relaity and delusion, are known adverse reactions with antipressansts and pscychotropics?

This is written by the manufacturers and the CPS at the drug store also confirm these adverse side effects...

On account that we do that suicidal and homicidal ideation does in fact occur, how can you dismiss the possiblliy that it was the side effects that controlled the person ?

It seems to me like this is pretty scientific...

taxslave

#12

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

Until someone perfects tailor-made pharmacology, trial and error is the best we have. Some people aren't happy in their chemical straitjackets and some couldn't live a near normal life without them. There are no easy answers.

Some also choose not to follow the instructions on the bottle either.

gerryh

#13

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

Wait a minute Gerr...

Do you agree that homicidal and suicidal ideation, loss of relaity and delusion, are known adverse reactions with antipressansts and pscychotropics?

This is written by the manufacturers and the CPS at the drug store also confirm these adverse side effects...

On account that we do that suicidal and homicidal ideation does in fact occur, how can you dismiss the possiblliy that it was the side effects that controlled the person ?

It seems to me like this is pretty scientific...

Possibility's are no better than maybe's and perhaps.

no more drugs

#14

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 17th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Possibility's are no better than maybe's and perhaps.

After how many???????? How many "possibilities" for you start being more than coincidences..

Sadly, science doesnt work the way you are expecting it to.

Thalidomide was banned because it was LINKED to birth defects ...

How was it linked ???

by possibility after possibility... circumstance after circumstance..... situation after situation...

Talking brought awareness, and transparency brought enough "probablies" together to bring change......

Sal

#15

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 18th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

After how many???????? How many "possibilities" for you start being more than coincidences..

Sadly, science doesnt work the way you are expecting it to.

Thalidomide was banned because it was LINKED to birth defects ...

How was it linked ???

by possibility after possibility... circumstance after circumstance..... situation after situation...

Talking brought awareness, and transparency brought enough "probablies" together to bring change......

I agree that it is something to consider. I agree that the taker if they have the ability to be lucid and make sane choices should most certainly be informed that suicide/homicidal thoughts can occur when taking the medication.

When brain chemistry has gone that awry causing a need for psychotropic drugs in order to live an everyday life one would hope that the individual receives on-going counselling.

There are many variables at play here that we do not know about. Mental health is in its infancy.

Were the individuals aware of possible side effects? Were they taking the drug regularly and consistently? Did they report problems?

One such case I vaguely remember was a doctor in Toronto who if I recall jumped in front of a subway car with her new born. She had tried to seek help. Our overburdened system did not respond correctly. It was tragic. I believe in her case it was post-par tum psychosis

Educating the public is important so that they may be more aware of possible danger signs/warnings of friends and or loved ones and know how they need to respond.

Often times our system just does not have the proper backup to respond adequately.

no more drugs

#16

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 18th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal

I agree that it is something to consider. I agree that the taker if they have the ability to be lucid and make sane choices should most certainly be informed that suicide/homicidal thoughts can occur when taking the medication.

When brain chemistry has gone that awry causing a need for psychotropic drugs in order to live an everyday life one would hope that the individual receives on-going counselling.

There are many variables at play here that we do not know about. Mental health is in its infancy.

Were the individuals aware of possible side effects? Were they taking the drug regularly and consistently? Did they report problems?

One such case I vaguely remember was a doctor in Toronto who if I recall jumped in front of a subway car with her new born. She had tried to seek help. Our overburdened system did not respond correctly. It was tragic. I believe in her case it was post-par tum psychosis

Educating the public is important so that they may be more aware of possible danger signs/warnings of friends and or loved ones and know how they need to respond.

Often times our system just does not have the proper backup to respond adequately.

Hi Sal,

Im glad you brought up the very sad case of Susan Killinger-Johnson....

Unbeknownst to many, she was also a victim of antidepressansts... not of her own natural mind (with or without postpartum..

She was in her right mind when she decided to seek out help for what was described as post portum ...She was pit on Antidepressanst ....

She was in withdrawal (better known as discontinuance syndrome) as she stopped taking the legal mind altering drug, and in the height of withdrawal, jumped in front of the Toronto subway..

Many people have the belief that her sad story was a woman who did such a heinous unbelievable thing, did it without the possibiloity of legal chemicals...

The coincidence in her story like so many others, is that she didnt commit such a heinus unbellievable act prior to her "getting help"..

She sought help and it was with the "help" (chemicals) that this act was committed. Who is to say she would have ever done such a thing if she had never taken the pill in the first place...

On account that she her solution was well thought out in order to seek out help (and not jump in front of a subway) before getting help, it seems more plausible to me that what she was experiencing was the all too often (hidden and under estimated side effect) of suicidal homicidal ideation carried out by the other underestimated side effect - loss of reality....

Many people believe that these murder suicides have/are happening while people have "untreated" mental illness... which would help the belief that mental illness can causes the same thing.... Sadly, I cant find any cases (similar in nature ) where prescription antidepressants or antipsychotics werent in the mix...

no more drugs

#17

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

I just found out (in Ontario) that toxicolgy reports are not mandatory in all suicides and murder suicides. I was advised that if the coroners office is able to establish the cause of death e.g. hangiing, gunshot etc, they dont often do a toxicology screen. The family could request one but it isnt guaranteed that it would be completed. It is up to the coroners office...

Why is this so alarming?

I found this really alarming because there are many people who would/could take these drugs and dont tell other people.
The family (and those left behind) could become victims of someone who had an adverse reaction ( suicidal and or homicidal ideation) while taking or withdrawing from a mind altering drug and not even know it..

In the meantime society will continue to believe that these adverse reactions are very rare, because the medical profession is potentially throwing away oppurtunities where the connection will be missed..

Tonington

#18

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

If society was seeing all these types of crimes were being done by people on legal, pharmaceuticals (antidepressanst and antipsychotics) would something have to improve somewehreÉ I would personally hope so.. at last thats the way I see it..

The first logical question is, what relationship, if any, exists between psychotropic drugs and these types of crimes? I'll post a link to some research below which seems to be what you are looking for, which actually reviewed the tox reports from the Chief Medical Officer of New York city:
PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Role of Antidepressants in Murder and Suicide

Eight years of data from one of the largest cities in North America, and no relationship between prescription drug use and violent crimes such as those which prompted this very thread. Let me re-phrase that, no indication that drug use increases the rate of these crimes.

In fact, the prevalence of psychotropic prescription drug use is much higher than 2.4%, the percentage of violent murder-suicides where the murderer was taking these types of drugs. That itself is not only not evidence of a causal relationship between drug use and this sort of crime, it is in fact evidence that these drugs are depressing the rate of these crimes. CDC figures put the use of anti-depressants alone at 11% in the US, in people aged 11 and older. If there was no relationship at all, we should expect to see a similar figure in the crime data. The fact that it's much lower?

Well, consider yourself educated.

no more drugs

#19

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

M latest point (on how there is no data being collected (or looked for) in many murder suicides..

To reiterate what I see as a huge problem, is hidden information where one may be able to draw conclusions, but no information is being collected (in this case... tox reports not even requested by coroners as per my above post)

We all know that simple stats work either for us or against s.. it is however they are portrayed to support the cause at hand..

The truth is there is very little data collected and what is colected is private where no one is privy too the info..

There have been very few studies on antidepressants and antipsychotics..and many say their study showed that they dont work....

The problem is studies cant be done to determine a real vs placebo affect on homicide and suicide..

I will admit that apparently this adverse side effect doesnt happen to everyone or at least not at the same time/duration of taking/changing or increasing a dose..

Deprssion has no set symptom of suicide...

There are studies that say most people who are are depressed, or have experienced depression, have never experienced suicidal thoughts while being depressed...

To also reiterate the drug monographs on antidepressants and antipsychotics state that it was found in studies that these drugs can bring on suicide and homicide ideation. (They do state it is rare) ....

On account that it is stated by the manufacturer that it CAN happen, why does the medical profession down play it and tell us how rare it is..?

How do we know how rare it is when we arent getting the information in horrific events as to whther or not the perp was taking or withdrawing from this type of medication, and whether or not they had ever reported suicidal or homicidal thoughts prior to their use?

It is scientific information that says loss or reality and delusion are also adverse effects.. How would a person suffering from loss of reality, know that they are not in their right mind..

I is stated it can happen, so I dont understand how we are supposed to ever know just how often it is happening when the reports and information are either hidden and not tracked and not collected.......

It is only logical to assume it still occurs (on account that the manufacturer said it did)

In recent murder suicides

Alison Easton Corchis, Ottawa,
Peter Thomasing Ottawa,
Peter Lefebvre,
Derek Jensen Lethbridge Alberta,
David Allen Georgetown On
Darren Wourms Wahlberg Sk
Alec Lamb Hope BC
Siyavash Pourchamani Winnipeg
Julien Nonato Winnipeg
Mathura Chaitram Winnipeg
Luke Chaisson Degrau NF
Andrea Damude Petawawa On
Ed Amler Windsor On
Amiben Prajapati Calgary
Wojeciech Kosalka Milton On
Yu Mei Lai Calgary
Jocelyn Marcoux

to name same of the recent ones in the last year or so...

Understandly, the families are crushed by the tradgedy. Understandly the general public looks at these monstrous events where the perp and family are hated when it is possible that the monster was created by adverse reactions..

Understandly the family has no strength or will to draw any attention on the case, and they cant speak out and many likely dont even know of monstrous adverse reactions that are listed in the drug monograph (that pharmacists do not offer the receipient) and the doctors dont come out and give us any details on their now dead patient..many dont even necessarily know that their relative was taking an antidepressant or antipsychotic..

It seems plausible that some of these tragic events were induced by meds and an adverse report will never be completed so to potentially change the current mind set of this being so rare is crazy...

Tonington

#20

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

It seems plausible that some of these tragic events were induced by meds and an adverse report will never be completed so to potentially change the current mind set of this being so rare is crazy...

Suspected adverse events are not filed because something is plausible. How do you square the above toxicology based findings with what you are saying now, and what you were asking for in your OP? There is a very real discordance here.

no more drugs

#21

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington

Suspected adverse events are not filed because something is plausible. How do you square the above toxicology based findings with what you are saying now, and what you were asking for in your OP? There is a very real discordance here.

Huh? Im not understanding your question??

And suspected events are absolutley necessary... here is why...

The banning of Tholidomide in the 60's was because of plausible suspicion.... babies were being born deformed who's mothers were taking this drug...

There was no scientific blood test for mom or baby to have made that determination...it was the all too common trend...

In the case of antidepressanst and antipsychotics we already know from the manufacturer that suicidal and homicidal ideation along with loss of reality can and has happened..

Are you suggesting that without some type of blood test confirming such, that trends cant ever be established? How can trends be established if we arent able to find out the information surrounding the murder suicide? Hearing that tox reports arent even done (id the cause of death is already able to be established) was shocking to me.... Hopefully, society will start seeing a common trend and start speaking out...

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

Huh? Im not understanding your question??

And suspected events are absolutley necessary... here is why...

The banning of Tholidomide in the 60's was because of plausible suspicion.... babies were being born deformed who's mothers were taking this drug...

There was no scientific blood test for mom or baby to have made that determination...it was the all too common trend...

In the case of antidepressanst and antipsychotics we already know from the manufacturer that suicidal and homicidal ideation along with loss of reality can and has happened..

Are you suggesting that without some type of blood test confirming such, that trends cant ever be established? How can trends be established if we arent able to find out the information surrounding the murder suicide? Hearing that tox reports arent even done (id the cause of death is already able to be established) was shocking to me.... Hopefully, society will start seeing a common trend and start speaking out...

Hey just think .... back in the 50's and 60's if the pharma companies had have said that thir studies showed tholidomide has the very rare adverse reaction/side effect that babies coud be deformed... it would have never been banned....every mom who delivered a baby with a birth defect would have been told it wasnt the drug becasue it was so rare... sheesh

Tonington

#22

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

Huh? Im not understanding your question??

You asked about toxicology reports. I linked to an investigation using toxicology reports. They found no evidence that the drugs lead to more violent crime, and in fact I explained that their results actually point to a reduction. You ignore that and move onto it being plausible that drugs are the impetus for some crime, when there is no evidence.

I`m saying that your statements are not in accord with each other from the beginning of the thread to these last ones.

Quote:

And suspected events are absolutley necessary... here is why...

I know very well why suspected adverse events are necessary. I work for an animal health company, part of a much larger corporation, that makes vaccines for fish. If I even hear a friend talking about adverse reactions in their dog after using one of our flea treatments, or adverse reactions from a human medication we market, I'm obligated to get information and pass it onto our Pharmacovigilance staff. In fact it's my duty to make a report in no more than 24 hours from the moment I become aware.

That said, they are all suspected events until the investigation is complete.

And like I said, you don't fill out a suspected adverse event for something plausible. We only deal with real events, not supposition of loose thoughts and vague possibilities.

Niflmir

#23 Top Rated Post

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

We all know that simple stats work either for us or against s.. it is however they are portrayed to support the cause at hand..

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

Sadly, science doesnt work the way you are expecting it to.

So you're happy with science when it backs up your position, but it is wishy-washy nonsense when it doesn't?

First off, you are committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent. Your argument is basically, "If someone is on certain medications, then they become more violent/suicidal. A person is violent or suicidal, therefore they were on certain medications." You try to dodge the fallacy by sticking probabilities in there, but causality with probabilities work in the exact same way as causality with probabilities: your reasoning is fallacious.

Now, fallacious reasoning alone doesn't kill a proposition, it just makes it seem like gibberish to rationally minded people. As Tonington showed, the science solidly kills your argument and (oh, the irony!) I'm afraid that science doesn't work in the way you want it to. Statistics have very precise meanings, they cannot mean whatever you want them to. People with poor statistical knowledge instead abuse statistics for their rhetorical constructions and other unskilled statisticians and lay people believe them because they affirm what they already believe.

On the more human level, these medications help a lot of people achieve the balance in life that they otherwise could not. I was once upon a time put on some serious anti-psychotics. They made me better, and everybody I cared about could tolerate being around me again. Thankfully I was able to use the experience to learn how to behave around people and managed to leave them behind a long time ago. There were unpleasant side effects but nothing is more unpleasant than your family and friends not being comfortable around you.

JamesBondo

#24

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

the left want the guns banned, so they don't want to mention the drugs.

And the right want the criminal to go to jail, therefore an 'it's the drugs' excuse is not good for a long conviction.

no more drugs

#25

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 25th, 2013

Because I care about people in general and see that many people are unaware of the dangers of antidepressants and antipsychotics, I wish to inform them (incase they didnt already know) that;

1) many pharmacists do not tell of known adverse reactions of these drugs that have confirmed loss of reality delusion, suicide and homicidal ideation have and can occur...there is currently no mandate in any province for pharmacists to disclose adverse reactions (even if you specifically ask what they are)

2) I have personally noticed a huge trend of murder suicides where anitdepressants and or antipsychotics allegedly came into the mix and then the murder suicide took place..

3) If you or anyone reports an adverse reaction to a drug though your doctor or pharmacist, there is no mandate that says they need to submit your reaction to Health Canada...

4) A persons report of an adverse affect should be submitted to Health Canada regardless of the opinion of the pharmacists ... your concerns deserve to be sent to Health Canada..

5) Tox reports are not done (in many cases) in murder suicides where the coroner / medical examiner already knows the manner and cause of death.

6) It was through a common trend of deformed babies where mothers were taking tholidomide where too many coincidences initiated the ban in the 60's even though there was no scientific evidence, and appeared plausible that the drug was causing this)

7) There appears to be a growing common trend of murder suicides across our country where these drugs appear to be connected....

In any writing on this subject I have done, there has only been good intentions to help people make the best possible decision for themself .....

9) Stats are usually misleading when studies are few and far between and the datat in which is collected is not collected by every possible mean.

10) Most studies that have been on antidepressants and antipsychotics, were done by the (bias) manufacturer.
Independant studies have shown that these pills dont work.

Here's an article by Dr Peter Breggin psychiatist (who has been working among these pharmaceuticals since they came out...)

"AntidepressantsCause Suicide and Violence in Soldiers

Here are the starting facts: Death by suicide is at record levels in thearmed services. Simultaneously the use of antidepressant drugs is also atrecord levels, including brand names like Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa andLexapro.

According to the army, in 2007 17% of combat troops in Afghanistan were takingprescription antidepressants or sleeping pills. Inside sources have given me aneven bleaker picture: During Vietnam, a mere 1% our troops were takingprescribed psychiatric drugs. By contrast, in the past year one-third ofmarines in combat zones were taking psychiatric drugs.

Are the pills helping? The army confirms that since 2002 the number ofsuicide attempts has increased six-fold. And more than 128 soldiers killedthemselves last year. "

read the rest..
Dr. Peter Breggin: Antidepressants Cause Suicide and Violence in Soldiers

Tonington

#26

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 26th, 2013

I wonder if an active war has anything to do with it? You think that's possible? The tox reports that you are complaining about don't support your claims. Full stop. Learning new information should shape your views. That you chose to stick your head in the sand confirms that you are an activist who has already decided, in the absence of empiricism, that these drugs are causing murders and suicides.

Look, it's very simple. If the drugs were causing murder and suicide, then the tox reports would show individuals taking these medications are over-represented in the study population. They are not. They are under-represented. Think about that.

no more drugs

#27

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 26th, 2013

[
On the more human level, these medications help a lot of people achieve the balance in life that they otherwise could not. I was once upon a time put on some serious anti-psychotics. They made me better, and everybody I cared about could tolerate being around me again. Thankfully I was able to use the experience to learn how to behave around people and managed to leave them behind a long time ago. There were unpleasant side effects but nothing is more unpleasant than your family and friends not being comfortable around you.[/QUOTE]

Im glad life is good for you... Im glad you found something that helped....

As I have stated several times, it is apparent that adverse reactions (namely suicide and or homicidal thinking) doesnt happen to everyone..

Tholidomide use in every pregnant woman, did not cause birth defects in every case...

Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington

I wonder if an active war has anything to do with it? You think that's possible? The tox reports that you are complaining about don't support your claims. Full stop. Learning new information should shape your views. That you chose to stick your head in the sand confirms that you are an activist who has already decided, in the absence of empiricism, that these drugs are causing murders and suicides.

Look, it's very simple. If the drugs were causing murder and suicide, then the tox reports would show individuals taking these medications are over-represented in the study population. They are not. They are under-represented. Think about that.

What appears "simple" to me is that you arent reading my posts in which you are so strongly disagreeing with...

My posts have shown that tox screening is not being done ......

Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington

I wonder if an active war has anything to do with it? You think that's possible? The tox reports that you are complaining about don't support your claims. Full stop. Learning new information should shape your views. That you chose to stick your head in the sand confirms that you are an activist who has already decided, in the absence of empiricism, that these drugs are causing murders and suicides.

Look, it's very simple. If the drugs were causing murder and suicide, then the tox reports would show individuals taking these medications are over-represented in the study population. They are not. They are under-represented. Think about that.

If anyone has their head in the sand ... sorry to say but it is you....

The reality and known fact from drug manufacturers of antidepressanst and antipsychotics say that these drugs can cause suicide and homicide ideation along with loss of reality..

This is a known fact ..

How you seem to be able to rule out that possibility in the murder suicides that have been occuring hand overfist, is baffling to say the least. (Head in sand?)

If you are suggesting that the drug manufacturers who stands to gain HUGE profits would be conducting unbiased studies and be honest/forthcoming/transparent, then how do you explain this below article ....?)

"Glaxo Agrees to Pay $3 Billion in Fraud Settlement July 2, 2012

"In the largest settlement involving a pharmaceutical company, the British drugmaker GlaxoSmithKline agreed to plead guilty to criminal charges and pay $3 billion in fines for promoting its best-selling antidepressants for unapproved uses and failing to report safety data"

read the rest (and tell me who's head is in the sand...mine, or yours????)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/bu...anted=all&_r=0

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Tonington

#28

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 26th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

What appears "simple" to me is that you arent reading my posts in which you are so strongly disagreeing with...

My posts have shown that tox screening is not being done ......

No they haven't. Your posts have complained that the information isn't made public. That's much different than claiming they aren't being done. If you can't get access to them, then you can't very well say that they don't exist...

Quote:

The reality and known fact from drug manufacturers of antidepressanst and antipsychotics say that these drugs can cause suicide and homicide ideation along with loss of reality..

Yes, they can. However, they should be given in consultation with a Doctor who can monitor the treatment and response. You're jumping from micro to macro.

The toxicology results from New York City are precisely what you were asking for. The coincidence of murders/suicides and psychotropic drug use was only 2.4%. Do you understand what a population is and how that is relevant to cross-sectional study?

Quote:

How you seem to be able to rule out that possibility in the murder suicides that have been occuring hand overfist, is baffling to say the least. (Head in sand?)

I never ruled out the possibility, and I still don't. One study does not rule that out. I simply provided a link to the very type of data you were complaining about a lack of access to. Then I wondered how you could persist with your assertions given that the very data you were looking for gave you an answer you did not like.

Quote:

If you are suggesting that the drug manufacturers who stands to gain HUGE profits would be conducting unbiased studies and be honest/forthcoming/transparent, then how do you explain this below article ....?)

I explain that you have just posted a strawman. I never said any of that.

Quote:

"Glaxo Agrees to Pay $3 Billion in Fraud Settlement July 2, 2012

"In the largest settlement involving a pharmaceutical company, the British drugmaker GlaxoSmithKline agreed to plead guilty to criminal charges and pay $3 billion in fines for promoting its best-selling antidepressants for unapproved uses and failing to report safety data"

read the rest (and tell me who's head is in the sand...mine, or yours????)

Still yours. Now you're moving goal posts and creating strawmen arguments, amongst other logical fallacies like non sequitur.. Suffice it to say, that the behaviour of GSK does not provide the evidence for your OP either.

no more drugs

#29

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 26th, 2013

You still havent read my posts... (yet you keep arguing)

I said in my posts that coroners and medical examiners in Canada are NOT running tox reports in murder suicides where they know how the people died..They are NOT requesting tox reports..end of story..

they should be ..we are portentially missing out on great help that may help show a link to the drug and an adverse reaction

You also said that..I will quote you. you said re antidepressants and ntipsychotics..." However, they should be given in consultation with a Doctor who can monitor the treatment and response"

You didnt read my post that says pharmacists and doctors ARE NOT MANDATED to disclose adverse reactions and they arent telling people ... (they are also not mandated to complete adverse reaction forms when they are told of one.. There is nothing that madates them to send in the received complaint ....

These are the concerns I write of which of course help in the problem with these drugs causing awful things, and people not being aware of enough...

Im glad you believe it is possible that the murder suicides that seem to be happening weekly, could be the result of an adverse reaction to psychopharmaceuticals.... That was the point of my writing.. where peopkle start considering the possibililty and to help make people aware..

Pharmaceutical companies have their way paved... heres how they are assisted

criminal investigations are never public (when the perp is dead no charges are laid and nothing is ever made public)

coroners dont run tox reports

pharmacists and doctors dont tell people about possible adverse reactions

pharmacists dont have to report a reported adverse reaction and neither do doctors

stats canada doesnt take polls on how many prescriptions of these drugs are given and the breakdpown per drug

there are no public stats of how many suicides there are

and we the people continue believeing that these drugs must be safe or they wouldnt be given out when in fact we and they know very little about what they are doing to people and I doubt they care...

karrie

#30

Re: Murder Suicide and How Toxicology Reports Are Hidden

Feb 26th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by no more drugs

and we the people continue believeing that these drugs must be safe or they wouldnt be given out when in fact we and they know very little about what they are doing to people and I doubt they care...

Not everything you say is wrong, but you've reached the wrong conclusion with all of it.

These medications are crucial for many people. Life saving.

Your endorsement of 'no more drugs' is hazardous, reckless, irresponsible.

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