Maryland Abortion Doctors Charged With Murder


gerryh
#211
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Twin Herefords (possibly Charolais) from what I've gathered.


Thing is...she mentioned a single before the miscarriage..... and in the last message, she mentions "A" child and grandchildren. I'm counting 3 live births, but she references just 1 in the end..... getting tripped up on her own lies?
 
petros
#212
Almost as bad as Vernus.
 
JLM
#213
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Almost as bad as Vernus.

You'd be talking about V.D.

www.topix.com/forum/news/weird/TI55VMB8SS6KFDTN9 (external - login to view)
 
petros
#214
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

You'd be talking about V.D.

Yup. A hole that is above ground.
 
talloola
+2
#215
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

I doubt many women that experience miscarriage refer to it as an abortion. I think there's quite a difference.

a spontaneious abortion is a miscarriage.
up until the 20th week of a pregnancy, the loss of the embryo is called a 'spontaneious
abortion'.
no connection to a planned abortion.
 
Ariadne
#216
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

a spontaneious abortion is a miscarriage.
up until the 20th week of a pregnancy, the loss of the embryo is called a 'spontaneious
abortion'.
no connection to a planned abortion.

I stand corrected.
 
mentalfloss
+1 / -1
#217
It's clear that the resolution to this problem will be to cut off abortion to 21 weeks. This should appease both the pro choice and the crazy people.
 
Ariadne
#218
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

It's clear that the resolution to this problem will be to cut off abortion to 21 weeks. This should appease both the pro choice and the crazy people.

That would certainly give pregnant women ample time to make up their minds about whether a baby suited their lifestyle. That should be figured out by 8 weeks (for medical procedure options) ... and the fact that 2 months is plenty of time to for a mother to figure out if a baby is the right decision. Give another 4 weeks for wishy washiness in the relationship and confusion about how to proceed. Cut that off at 12 weeks; 3 months max for women to decide if a baby suits their lifestyle. Older women may want to complete routine congenital abnormality tests. Amniocentesis, from what I remember, can be done at about 14 weeks and the results take 3 weeks. That makes 17 weeks. Women should be given an extra week after learning the test results to make up their minds. In fact, also give them 4 weeks to make up their minds. That makes 21 weeks. That seems like the perfect gestation age to accommodate everyone, as life is viable after 23 weeks with a little extra medical attention.

12 weeks seems a little on the generous side for women that are making the decision based on convenience. I would rather see that reduced to 6 weeks ... as medical technologies have improved to allow for confirmation of conception within days and safe, simple abortions are an option in early term pregnancy. That still gives women 5 and a half weeks to decide whether a pregnancy works with their lifestyle. There are simple and complex abortion methods. The simple should be used as often as possible. The complex requires something like a D&C to scrape out the placenta.

Anyway, the dividing line in terms of at what number of weeks gestation medical professionals can keep a fetus alive is, at this time, about 22-24 weeks, so that should probably be the cutoff for sucking or vacuuming the baby out prematurely and tossing it in a freezer.
 
mentalfloss
#219
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Anyway, the dividing line in terms of at what number of weeks gestation medical professionals can keep a fetus alive is, at this time, about 22-24 weeks, so that should probably be the cutoff for sucking or vacuuming the baby out prematurely and tossing it in a freezer.

Or a microwave, but yes.. agreed.
 
bluebyrd35
+1
#220
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

I doubt many women that experience miscarriage refer to it as an abortion. I think there's quite a difference.

Ah but that is the medical term and I am a medical secretary. Miscarriage is not as explicit in the description of what actually happens. It sounds better to those who need a bit of comfort .

Look at it like telling a patient, they have a cut that needs a few stitches, rather than "There is a 20 cm laceration that needs repair". That repair may need subcutaneous sutures as well as cutaneous ones.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Where the waters get murky is Human Rights and the Rights of the Person.

Charter Rights apply to the Person but not the human.

The definition of human needs to be squared up.

It's undeniable that we are humans from conception but legally as Persons that doesn't come until post birth.

Really?? What evidence can YOU produce that a piece of tissue is either a person or human, over that of scientists who spend their life working on the problem. Other than religious prejudice, what can you possibly contribute to such a question.?

We are homosapiens who are adept (some at least) in using communication systems. This does not make all of us, apparently, adept at understanding what they spout. Our species like all earthly ones has it's origjns in the long ago past, (which by the way is quite well documented). Research it for yourself. Like it or not we are an animal species. We call ourselves human but it does not change the fact we are animals of a specific species.

Because we developed into what WE think of as unique among earthly species, there is very little that separates us from the others. What makes us unique ls curiosity and the desire to influence our environment. Our desire to manipulate phenomena,which led to advanced tool and science systems. None of which , changes what we are and what we originated from. Imagine strong emphasis on manipulate!! That manipulation is employed by members of our own species against other of the same species!!

There are other species that are also curious, but will we ever know how much we have smothered or curtailed their evolution will we?? Our species has overrun the planet and has destroyed uncountable species. Now people like you want to finish the job by declaring us more worthy than the survival of our planet!! Small mindedness really distresses the hell out of me.
Last edited by bluebyrd35; Jan 9th, 2012 at 09:26 AM..
 
JLM
#221
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

Really?? What evidence can YOU produce that a piece of tissue is either a person or human, over that of scientists who spend their life working on the problem. Other than religious prejudice, what can you possibly contribute to such a question.?

Geez, I wish every question was that easy. For part of the 9 months "the entity" can survive well in either role as a fetus or post caesarian birth as a "human", so is what you are saying is if it is a human or not depends on location?
 
mentalfloss
+1
#222
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Geez, I wish every question was that easy. For part of the 9 months "the entity" can survive well in either role as a fetus or post caesarian birth as a "human", so is what you are saying is if it is a human or not depends on location?

This is part of the problem as society needs to get over the fact that a fetus is a human throughout the entire gestation period and abortions are okay.
 
bluebyrd35
+2
#223
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Geez, I wish every question was that easy. For part of the 9 months "the entity" can survive well in either role as a fetus or post caesarian birth as a "human", so is what you are saying is if it is a human or not depends on location?

NO......A cow's gestation is 9 months......how much time have scientists spent on whether their offspring are sacred and all must be saved no matter what?? Very damn little. However, scientists have spent a great deal of research on improving milk or meat production. Not a thought to brain or communication development. This species is not stupid. They show love, tenderness, anger, fear, curiosity, humour even slyness. So, other than religion why do we treat animals as we do?? Mind you, I enjoy a steak as much as the next person, and milk kept my family solvent for many years. I just think we need to do need to put our ideas of overweaning worth in perspective.

Puleese time to use the fabulous animal brain we have developed over the ages and toss out the old controlling religious influences.. .
 
DaSleeper
#224
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

It is violent. we have had to put a rope around protruding hooves of a calf more than once and lever it out of the cow when we could not get a vet in time to save them both. Even during normal birthing cows bellow in pain, as do many other species. As for the bonbon remark, well we have progressed somewhat from that belief.

Whatsamatter vet not close enough????
 
bluebyrd35
+1
#225
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Geez, I wish every question was that easy. For part of the 9 months "the entity" can survive well in either role as a fetus or post caesarian birth as a "human", so is what you are saying is if it is a human or not depends on location?

What?? why do you attribute an "entity" to a bit of tissue or even to a fully developed new born?? Humans, just like all animals develop!! If the biblical god says life is given in the first breath, where does it say that particular life is actually ensouled (for the religious) It is logical for others to assume that when a baby is given life by a member of the human species, then that is when life begins!! It is free to develop individual awareness.

For the religious:: If we, as souls, have been given free choice, that choice of necessity must begin before birth!! We should get to choose our parents, the time and place of our journey. We are allowed to plan as much as possible our life journey. Because all have the same free choice, we must make agreements and alliances before hand. Because of free choice anyone may reneige on any agreement or ignore any alliance. Soo.....if parents or child reneige on the agreement to engage in a relationship, the results are a miscarriage or abortion. Isn't this is how a reasonable god would set things up.

But hey, if one feels obliged to believe in a cruel or unforgiving biblical one, then we get "Kill all Abortionists" or Kill all Unbelievers". There are slaves of many stripes!!

Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

Whatsamatter vet not close enough????

Why else would two females attempt to save a calf from a prize milk cow if there was?? Life in cows as with humans time can be of the essence.
 
karrie
+4
#226
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

It's clear that the resolution to this problem will be to cut off abortion to 21 weeks. This should appease both the pro choice and the crazy people.

Call me a 'crazy' person if you like.... I'm pro-life... but ironically, late term abortions are some of the few that I would actually support once I got researching and being honest about my desire to see people live.

Crazy right? But, late term abortions are some of the very few that are actually done to save a mother's life. Make late term abortion illegal, and you preserve the right to abort for convenience sake, while removing the right to abort to save a mother's life. What sense does that make?
 
mentalfloss
+1
#227
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Crazy right? But, late term abortions are some of the very few that are actually done to save a mother's life. Make late term abortion illegal, and you preserve the right to abort for convenience sake, while removing the right to abort to save a mother's life. What sense does that make?

I did not know that.

We are back to square one, lol

Yes, now I am firm on mother's right trumping the child.
 
Ariadne
+2
#228
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

NO......A cow's gestation is 9 months......how much time have scientists spent on whether their offspring are sacred and all must be saved no matter what?? Very damn little. However, scientists have spent a great deal of research on improving milk or meat production. Not a thought to brain or communication development. This species is not stupid. They show love, tenderness, anger, fear, curiosity, humour even slyness. So, other than religion why do we treat animals as we do?? Mind you, I enjoy a steak as much as the next person, and milk kept my family solvent for many years. I just think we need to do need to put our ideas of overweaning worth in perspective.

Puleese time to use the fabulous animal brain we have developed over the ages and toss out the old controlling religious influences.. .

The abortion question is only a religious question for religious people. Non-religious people have opinions about the subject as well - and it isn't necessarily that abortion should be performed at any time prior to natural birth. Please don't assume that those that believe abortion needs guidlines or regulations are controlled by religious influences. There are, after all, plenty of ways to form an opinion other than to look to religion ... like logic, common sense and decency.
 
DaSleeper
#229
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post




Why else would two females attempt to save a calf from a prize milk cow if there was?? Life in cows as with humans time can be of the essence.

And of course a cow and a calf have monetary value while a fetus is just an inconvenience
 
Niflmir
+1
#230
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Can I remove people from the planet? It's my planet. I'm smarter, bigger, faster than they are. I'm productive, they aren't.

Well, other than the contention that it's your planet, I'd generally agree with your take on "Might is right," being the dominant influence in ethics.

Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

The abortion question is only a religious question for religious people. Non-religious people have opinions about the subject as well - and it isn't necessarily that abortion should be performed at any time prior to natural birth. Please don't assume that those that believe abortion needs guidlines or regulations are controlled by religious influences. There are, after all, plenty of ways to form an opinion other than to look to religion ... like logic, common sense and decency.

It is very rare for people who are not religious to assert an a priori moral superiority for humans; certainly not one who started from no moral premises whatsoever and worked logically towards a conclusion.

Then, asserting that the death of something human is murder is also equally rare for someone who has sat down and actually contemplated things such as the difference between homicide, suicide, murder and abortion. The person who asserts the equality of any two without attaching "... in my opinion" is reasonably viewed as having accepted the opinion of somebody else dogmatically. And what do you associate dogma with?

But yeah, "Most humans have legs, you have legs, therefore you are a human," is faulty.
 
Ariadne
+1
#231
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

It is very rare for people who are not religious to assert an a priori moral superiority for humans; certainly not one who started from no moral premises whatsoever and worked logically towards a conclusion.

Then, asserting that the death of something human is murder is also equally rare for someone who has sat down and actually contemplated things such as the difference between homicide, suicide, murder and abortion. The person who asserts the equality of any two without attaching "... in my opinion" is reasonably viewed as having accepted the opinion of somebody else dogmatically. And what do you associate dogma with?

But yeah, "Most humans have legs, you have legs, therefore you are a human," is faulty.

I disagree. People indoctrinated with religion may be influenced by what they learned through that religion, but not all people are indoctrinated with religion to the extent that it rules their thoughts. Abortion, in my opinion, is a question of: at what point during gestation does life begin. This is a scientific question, as life is scientifically defined. Life is not defined by a soul or religious books except in religion. Religion is for those that want to believe rather than question.

The whole debate of what defines life is certainly interesting, but the point that concerns me regarding this article is that we know a woman that was 33 weeks pregnant resorted to having an abortion procedure initiated in one state and completed in another state. That doesn't sound like a helpless pregnant teenager or a terminally ill pregnant woman. That sounds like a resourceful, able bodied woman that changed her mind about her pregnancy after the child was viable and who then sought out a shady doctor to carry out the abortion. That doctor should be prosecuted for performing a terminal procedure on a viable child ... as that is the law that was broken.
 
Kreskin
#232
I'm curious to know what your theories are for a woman having an abortion in week 36.
 
Ariadne
#233
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

I'm curious to know what your theories are for a woman having an abortion in week 36.

Shouldn't that be called a birth or c-section?
 
Kreskin
#234
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Shouldn't that be called a birth or c-section?

Well why does one give birth at an abortion clinic at week 36?
 
bluebyrd35
#235
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

And of course a cow and a calf have monetary value while a fetus is just an inconvenience

Depends on the circumstances doesn't it?? For, us our children had great value and choosing to save them was no problem whatever. I wonder, though, just how the 9th child, in a poor, starving family would be greeted?? That 9th, would be much more than a monetary inconvenience wouldn't it?? It could be a death sentence for the whole family!!

Do you know that every year 15 million children world wide die of starvation? Kind of puts the inconvenience of a fetus in perspective doesn't it??

Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

I disagree. People indoctrinated with religion may be influenced by what they learned through that religion, but not all people are indoctrinated with religion to the extent that it rules their thoughts. Abortion, in my opinion, is a question of: at what point during gestation does life begin. This is a scientific question, as life is scientifically defined. Life is not defined by a soul or religious books except in religion. Religion is for those that want to believe rather than question.

The whole debate of what defines life is certainly interesting, but the point that concerns me regarding this article is that we know a woman that was 33 weeks pregnant resorted to having an abortion procedure initiated in one state and completed in another state. That doesn't sound like a helpless pregnant teenager or a terminally ill pregnant woman. That sounds like a resourceful, able bodied woman that changed her mind about her pregnancy after the child was viable and who then sought out a shady doctor to carry out the abortion. That doctor should be prosecuted for performing a terminal procedure on a viable child ... as that is the law that was broken.

Life begins at conception......the key word here is " begins." There are multiple factors that interrupt the course of those beginnings, many of which are not artificially induced. It is we, collectively, that must decide when that beginning has reached culmination and the individual begins. Certainly until it can exist outside of the womb it cannot be considered other than mere fertilized tissue. Human eggs can be fertilized outside the womb, Does this immediately make them an aware individual?? Hardly think so.
 
DaSleeper
+1
#236
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

Depends on the circumstances doesn't it?? For, us our children had great value and choosing to save them was no problem whatever. I wonder, though, just how the 9th child, in a poor, starving family would be greeted?? That 9th, would be much more than a monetary inconvenience wouldn't it?? It could be a death sentence for the whole family!!

Do you know that every year 15 million children world wide die of starvation? Kind of puts the inconvenience of a fetus in perspective doesn't it??



Life begins at conception......the key word here is " begins." There are multiple factors that interrupt the course of those beginnings, many of which are not artificially induced. It is we, collectively, that must decide when that beginning has reached culmination and the individual begins. Certainly until it can exist outside of the womb it cannot be considered other than mere fertilized tissue. Human eggs can be fertilized outside the womb, Does this immediately make them an aware individual?? Hardly think so.

The way you keep sidetracking the issue, moving the goal post...let me ask you....did you ever tell your girls "Eat your vegetables...millions of children are starving in africa, and would like to have what you're leaving on your plate"
Because you are doing the same thing here, posting irrelevant stuff.
Quote:

Certainly until it can exist outside of the womb it cannot be considered other than mere fertilized tissue

Your statement.....Certainly, refering to the OP, as old as 36 weeks, according to you it is more than mere fertilized tissue because it can exist outside the womb..Non?
Last edited by DaSleeper; Jan 9th, 2012 at 07:38 PM..
 
gerryh
#237
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Call me a 'crazy' person if you like.... I'm pro-life... but ironically, late term abortions are some of the few that I would actually support once I got researching and being honest about my desire to see people live.

Crazy right? But, late term abortions are some of the very few that are actually done to save a mother's life. Make late term abortion illegal, and you preserve the right to abort for convenience sake, while removing the right to abort to save a mother's life. What sense does that make?


You're crazy. The late term abortions mentioned in this article do NOT fall into your pigeon hole. These abortions were performed across 2 states and using a shady doctor. IF the women's health orlife were in danger they would not have needed to seek out this sicko.

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

I did not know that.

We are back to square one, lol

Yes, now I am firm on mother's right trumping the child.

Time to flip again.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Well, other than the contention that it's your planet, I'd generally agree with your take on "Might is right," being the dominant influence in ethics.



It is very rare for people who are not religious to assert an a priori moral superiority for humans; certainly not one who started from no moral premises whatsoever and worked logically towards a conclusion.

Then, asserting that the death of something human is murder is also equally rare for someone who has sat down and actually contemplated things such as the difference between homicide, suicide, murder and abortion. The person who asserts the equality of any two without attaching "... in my opinion" is reasonably viewed as having accepted the opinion of somebody else dogmatically. And what do you associate dogma with?

But yeah, "Most humans have legs, you have legs, therefore you are a human," is faulty.


The difference between homicide and murder is intent. When a woman purposely seeks out an abortion when there is no risk of death or serious harm to either than it is murder. Premeditated.

Personally, I hold all life to be "sacred" (for lack of a better word). Be it an unborn child, a victim of war, or someone like Olsen or Dahmer.
 
taxslave
#238
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Call me a 'crazy' person if you like.... I'm pro-life... but ironically, late term abortions are some of the few that I would actually support once I got researching and being honest about my desire to see people live.

Crazy right? But, late term abortions are some of the very few that are actually done to save a mother's life. Make late term abortion illegal, and you preserve the right to abort for convenience sake, while removing the right to abort to save a mother's life. What sense does that make?

I wondered when someone would put that into coherent sentences.
This is also when it is possible to tell if a baby will be born with serious birth defects which 50 years ago most would die. Now they can become guinea pigs for modern medicine with no thought to the pain and suffering inflicted on the victim or the cost to taxpayers.
 
gerryh
#239
I guess war just doesn't kill enough kids, gotta keep the blood thirsty happy and keep killin.
 
Ariadne
#240
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

Well why does one give birth at an abortion clinic at week 36?

That's a good riddle. What's the answer?
 

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