The Christian Lie :)

mentalfloss
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#1
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

ANYONE who commits mass murder in the name of Christianity is simply NOT Christian, as the act itself shows their deviance from the theology.


Right-wing extremist or Christian terrorist?

The mass murders in Oslo have raised a host of agonizing questions, but few have such an ancient lineage and contemporary resonance as whether Anders Behring Breivik, the right-wing extremist behind the attacks that killed 76 Norwegians on July 22, is a Christian.

Breivik has claimed in various forums that he is a Christian but most explicitly and in greatest detail in the 1,500-page manifesto he compiled over several months and posted on the Internet.

"At the age of 15 I chose to be baptized and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church," the 32-year-old Breivik wrote. "I consider myself to be 100 percent Chris tian." But he also fiercely disagrees with the politics of most Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church.

"Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I'm not an excessively religious man," he writes. "I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe."

Breivik fashions himself a "cultural Christian" and a modern-day crusader in a resurrected order of the medieval Knights Templar, riding out to do battle against squishy "multiculturalism" and the onslaught of "Islamization"—and to suffer the glory of Christian martyrdom in the process.

Mark Juergensmeyer, author of Terror in the Mind of God, noted close parallels between Breivik and Timothy McVeigh, the antigovernment radical behind the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. "If [Osama] bin Laden is a Muslim terrorist, Breivik and McVeigh are surely Christian ones," Juergensmeyer, a professor of sociology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, wrote on the blog Religion Dispatches.

Not surprisingly, conservative pundits who share some of Breivik's views and also consider themselves Christians quickly sought to distance themselves from Breivik by declaring, as Bill O'Reilly did on Fox News, that "Breivik is not a Christian."

"That's impossible," O'Reilly said July 26. "No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder. The man might have called himself a Christian on the Net, but he is certainly not of that faith." O'Reilly blamed the "liberal media" for "pushing the Christian angle" in order to demean Christians like himself.

O'Reilly's point was taken up by any number of commentators and religion scholars.

Mathew N. Schmalz, a professor of religious studies at the College of the Holy Cross, wrote in a Washington Post column that Breivik's vision "is a Christianity without Christ" because the attacker rejects a personal relationship with Jesus.

Writing in the Guardian, Andrew Brown reasoned that "even in his saner moments [Breivik's] ideology had nothing to do with Christianity but was based on an atavistic horror of Muslims and a loathing of 'Marxists,' by which he meant anyone to the left of Genghis Khan."

Arne H. Fjeldstad, a longtime Norwegian journalist and Lutheran minister of the Church of Norway, wrote a lengthy analysis of Breivik's references to Christianity and also concluded that "his view is framed entirely by politics, with strong political and cultural opinions, which also include religious views." Fjeldstad added: "Breivik's religious position is rather distant from any Christian faith commitment."

Others pushed back against such a carefully cordoned-off interpretation of Breivik's faith, or of Christianity itself. "If he did what he has alleged to have done, Anders Breivik is a Christian terrorist," Boston Univer sity religion scholar Stephen Prothero wrote on CNN.com.

"Yes, he twisted the Christian tradition in directions most Christians would not countenance. But he rooted his hate and his terrorism in Christian thought and Christian history, particularly the history of the medieval Crusades against Muslims, and current efforts to renew that clash," said Prothero. "So Christians have a responsibility to speak out forcefully against him, and to look hard at the resources in the Christian tradition that can be used to such murderous ends."

Andrew Sullivan, a Catholic, also expounded on that point, writing that "it is obvious that Christians can commit murder, assault, etc. They do so every day. Because, as Christian orthodoxy tells us, we are all sinners.

"To say that no Christian can ever commit murder is a sophist's piffle. . . . Do the countless criminals who have gone to church or believe in Jesus immediately not count as Christians the minute they commit the crime? Of course not."

Sullivan said O'Reilly's argument "is complete heresy in terms of the most basic Christian orthodoxy." And Sullivan is right, though for some 2,000 years Christians have continually battled fiercely over who is a "real" Christian and who is not, or who is a "good" Christian and who is a "bad" Christian.

Many argue today that President Obama, for example, can't be a true Christian despite his profession of faith because of the liberal policies he proposes. Or that Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, a Tea Party favorite, can't be a real Catholic because he embraces the atheistic libertarianism of Ayn Rand in opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Anders Breivik may be a bad Christian, perhaps the worst one can imagine, as well as a confused man who cherry-picked from scripture and history to justify his unchristian form of Christianity. But count less numbers of religion experts have observed that proof-texting the Bible and using faith to rationalize one's favorite political and cultural views is something that most believers—Jewish, Muslim and Christian—are guilty of at one time or another. So kicking Breivik out of Christianity in the end might be an ominous sign for all Christians.


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Colpy
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+4
#2  Top Rated Post
First of all...........even if I accepted this as an act of Christian terrorism (which I most emphatically DO NOT)......... it is one.

Only 17,709 to go to catch up with the "Religion of Peace"

That since 2001.

Now.........From the Norwegian Monster himself...

Quote:

“Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe. If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social, identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian.”

No matter WHAT he thinks, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ IS Christianity......without that, you ARE NOT Christian.

Now, go find me Muslim terrorists and ask if they believe Allah is a personal force in their lives.
 
mentalfloss
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#3
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

No matter WHAT he thinks, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ IS Christianity......without that, you ARE NOT Christian.

My parents are Catholic and they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Are you saying they're not Christians?
 
Colpy
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

My parents are Catholic and they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Are you saying they're not christian?

Yes, I am.
 
mentalfloss
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#5
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Yes, I am.

Reallllllly.

So, do you believe they will go to purgatory or hell instead of heaven?
 
Colpy
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+3
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Reallllllly.

So, do you believe they will go to purgatory or hell instead of heaven?

Do I look like God to you?????

I don't judge.....it is simply that if they do not have a belief in the Christian God, then they are not Christians..........

That seems kind of obvious......
 
mentalfloss
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+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Do I look like God to you?????

I don't judge.....it is simply that if they do not have a belief in the Christian God, then they are not Christians..........

That seems kind of obvious......

No, they do believe in God. They just don't have a personal relationship with Jesus.

The guy died a long time ago.
Last edited by mentalfloss; Sep 8th, 2011 at 02:11 PM..
 
Colpy
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+3
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

No, they do believe in God. They just don't have a personal relationship with Jesus.

The guy died a long time ago.

I think you misunderstand.

Damn, I HATE discussing theology.

If they are if they believe the scriptures, if they have accepted that Jesus Christ died for them, if they have accepted Jesus Christ as God.........then they have a personal relationship. One of gratitude, one of worship.

If not, they are not Christians. They may be Deists, or agnostics, or any one of a hundred other perfectly acceptable beliefs....

But they are kidding themselves if they call themselves "Christian" without meeting the basic requirements

There is no half-way.

You can not be a Christian terrorist without being Christian. And being Christian precludes being a terrorist.

Not so with Islam.
 
In Between Man
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#9
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

No, they do believe in God. They just don't have a personal relationship with Jesus.

The guy died a long time ago.

Believing in the existence of God counts for NOTHING!

SATAN believes in God, he saw God face to face!
 
DurkaDurka
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#10
Quote: Originally Posted by alleywayzalwayzView Post

Believing in the existence of God counts for NOTHING!

How the fack would you know? Seriously, it's your brand of Christianity that gives it a bad name.
 
MHz
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Damn, I HATE discussing theology.
....if they have accepted Jesus Christ as God.........then they have a personal relationship. .....
....... You can not be a Christian terrorist without being Christian. And being Christian precludes being a terrorist.......

Not so with Islam.

Then you should stay off ALL religious threads, not just the Christian ones.
Jesus is not God that is why there are verses like the one below.
I would suggest reading the 7 letters in Revelation to show yourself that there are two kinds of people in "Church", ones that God approves of and others that He does not.
No such animal as a 'Christian terrorist', ... however there are many false Christian terrorists that operate with impunity to even being confronted.

Joh.20:17
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.

Quote: Originally Posted by alleywayzalwayzView Post

Believing in the existence of God counts for NOTHING!

SATAN believes in God, he saw God face to face!

Apparentlyhe missed the part about going to the lake if you sinned after seeing God's face in person
 
In Between Man
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#12
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurkaView Post

How the fack would you know? Seriously, it's your brand of Christianity that gives it a bad name.

"My brand of Christianity"? What I profess lines up with the bible, which is the infallible, inerrant word of God.

Muslims believe in God, creator of the universe. Can you give me any theological evidence that says Christians and Muslims are BOTH going to heaven?

And besides, I already told you, the devil has no doubts about God's existence. Is he going to be allowed to enter heaven one day?

Jesus replied: "I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. NO ONE comes to the father EXCEPT THROUGH ME." (John 14:6)

Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Jesus is not God

You and I CANNOT call ourselves brothers in Christ.

5 things we must agree on to call ourselves brothers:

1) Jesus was God. The promised Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies of God himself breaking into the world.

2) Jesus was born from a virgin. Scientists can now clone an animal without a sexual act. If man can do it, don't doubt for a second that God who created the entire universe could!

3) Jesus died on the cross. He received our punishment for our sins.

4) Jesus was resurrected from death and hell. He's alive today!

5) Jesus is coming back, just like he said he would.
Last edited by In Between Man; Sep 8th, 2011 at 03:10 PM..
 
Goober
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+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

First of all...........even if I accepted this as an act of Christian terrorism (which I most emphatically DO NOT)......... it is one.

Only 17,709 to go to catch up with the "Religion of Peace"

That since 2001.

Now.........From the Norwegian Monster himself...

No matter WHAT he thinks, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ IS Christianity......without that, you ARE NOT Christian.

Now, go find me Muslim terrorists and ask if they believe Allah is a personal force in their lives.

And so end this thread on Oslo Wacko as a Christian Fundamentalist wacko - He is more Aryan Nations - Nazi - than Christian.


Quote
“Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe. If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social, identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian.”

The above make him think he is Christian - So no relationship - So not a Christian - Pretty straight forward i would say.
 
TenPenny
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+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

No matter WHAT he thinks, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ IS Christianity......without that, you ARE NOT Christian.

Which would mean that we are not, and never were, a Christian nation, which is fine with me.
 
mentalfloss
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#15
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

If they are if they believe the scriptures, if they have accepted that Jesus Christ died for them, if they have accepted Jesus Christ as God.........then they have a personal relationship. One of gratitude, one of worship.

I asked them if they believe Jesus Christ died for them and if they accept Jesus Christ as God.

They said yes.

I asked them if they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ/God.

They said no.
 
Colpy
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+1
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

I asked them if they believe Jesus Christ died for them and if they accept Jesus Christ as God.

They said yes.

I asked them if they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ/God.

They said no.

Then they are confused.

As is, if they were honest about it, practically anyone discussing theology.

See what you started???? LOL

BTW, do they have suicide belts? Plans to shoot up a mall?? Do they approve of such actions???

No??

Then yeah, they might be Christians.

Damn Catholics. (just kidding)
 
Dexter Sinister
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+2
#17
Every time somebody claiming to be a Christian and motivated by Christian beliefs does something horrible, other Christians are quick to disavow the connection. I've heard that lame defense too many times, something horrible is done in the name of Christianity and other Christians dismiss it as not done by real Christians, who of course would never do such a thing. All the wars that raged across Europe for centuries, the destruction of aboriginal cultures around the world by colonizing European powers, the many crusades against Islam and the several mass murders of Jews on the way, the molestation of children by people in religious orders, slavery and the slave trade.... nope, none of it done by real Christians.

Nitpicking redefinitions of who is and is not a Christian don't get the church or its teachings off the hook. If people like bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers are Muslim terrorists, Breivik is a Christian terrorist, by any reasonable definition of the terms. Admit it and deal with it, anything else is simply a denial of any responsibility by the faith community.
 
mentalfloss
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#18
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Then they are confused.

As is, if they were honest about it, practically anyone discussing theology.

See what you started???? LOL

BTW, do they have suicide belts? Plans to shoot up a mall?? Do they approve of such actions???

No??

Then yeah, they might be Christians.

Damn Catholics. (just kidding)

Douggie's words have never been truer, my friend.

Doug Stanhope quotYou make your own christianityquot - YouTube

Last edited by mentalfloss; Sep 8th, 2011 at 04:31 PM..
 
MHz
#19
It wouldn't bother me to see any/all Church Organizations pay a heavy price in money and have their door closed permanently as they really are a blight on society. That being said, I can't find any verse or passage that gave them the authority to do what they have done over the centuries right up unto today with their fear-mongering and other assorted mis-deeds that go unpunished. That being said, the ones in charge of doing such clean-ups are part of the same problem, no wonder the 'clean-up' just never seems to happen.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
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+1
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Every time somebody claiming to be a Christian and motivated by Christian beliefs does something horrible, other Christians are quick to disavow the connection. I've heard that lame defense too many times, something horrible is done in the name of Christianity and other Christians dismiss it as not done by real Christians, who of course would never do such a thing. All the wars that raged across Europe for centuries, the destruction of aboriginal cultures around the world by colonizing European powers, the many crusades against Islam and the several mass murders of Jews on the way, the molestation of children by people in religious orders, slavery and the slave trade.... nope, none of it done by real Christians.

Nitpicking redefinitions of who is and is not a Christian don't get the church or its teachings off the hook. If people like bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers are Muslim terrorists, Breivik is a Christian terrorist, by any reasonable definition of the terms. Admit it and deal with it, anything else is simply a denial of any responsibility by the faith community.

I am wondering how many Moslem's deny that the terrorist bombers are Muslems or true Muslems? I am sure there are some but that is not the line of defence I am reading on the many threads on this subject here.

I think there are bad apples as a part of every religion and/or non-religion. Its a part of human nature. But I think it seems to be much more pronounced, for whatever reason, in the Moslem community. Maybe they are just better at it. *shrug*

I don't think you will find any Christian or Christian organization commending this attack. Usually is one or 2 if its a Molslem terrorist attack.

My 2 cents.
 
Colpy
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+2
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Every time somebody claiming to be a Christian and motivated by Christian beliefs does something horrible, other Christians are quick to disavow the connection. I've heard that lame defense too many times, something horrible is done in the name of Christianity and other Christians dismiss it as not done by real Christians, who of course would never do such a thing. All the wars that raged across Europe for centuries, the destruction of aboriginal cultures around the world by colonizing European powers, the many crusades against Islam and the several mass murders of Jews on the way, the molestation of children by people in religious orders, slavery and the slave trade.... nope, none of it done by real Christians.

Nitpicking redefinitions of who is and is not a Christian don't get the church or its teachings off the hook. If people like bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers are Muslim terrorists, Breivik is a Christian terrorist, by any reasonable definition of the terms. Admit it and deal with it, anything else is simply a denial of any responsibility by the faith community.

Now, if you want to go back into history, and start listing off episodes of despicable acts in the name of the Christian Church.....nobody in their right mind could argue with you.

I could indeed argue that the massacres of Jews and Muslims in the Crusades were not done by "Christians"......but they were done at the behest of the Catholic Church........so I concede the point.

One could argue that the witch hunts were usually carried out by civil authorities, for personal or civic gain.........but once again, the institutions concerned were supported by the Church, so once again, I concede the point.

Certainly there has been much done by Christian priests and pastors that is evil, as in the molestation of children by individuals.....but I am not at all sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand.

As for Breivik, he does not represent any congregation of fellows, any institution of common theological belief, he acts only as an individual, and as an individual he has denied the very basis of Christian belief.....therefore he simply is not a Christian........

He could claim to be an elephant, but if he lacks both the basic characteristics of an elephant, and a organization of others that also claim to be elephants.....then he is not an elephant.
 
MHz
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Certainly there has been much done by Christian priests and pastors that is evil, ....

In the calamity that was the exploration (and conquest) of the 'new world' it was not 'the Church' who was in charge of the boats and the soldiers that were part of those same boats. For lack of a better term it was the 'Governments of various Nations' and the slaughters they caused were at the orders of those same Government(s) and the main objective of that exploration was the search for newer and larger 'treasures' which was the prize the bankers were after. At least spread out the fact correctly as 'fixing religion' isn't going to dampen the evils that the Governments and Banks would still bring to the table.
 
DaSleeper
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+2
#23
This thread needs a bit of...hmm levity???

Islamophobophobia Politically Correct Persecution - YouTube


Did anyone watch to 2:45.....where it get's hilarious???
Now let's get serious...............


Jihad and the Arts - Pt1 - YouTube



Jihad and the Arts - Pt2 - YouTube

Last edited by DaSleeper; Sep 8th, 2011 at 04:57 PM..
 
MHz
#24
Was that with weapons made by Christians?
 
lone wolf
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#25
How can a book that was actually penned following several generations of hand-me-down stories be considered the word of any one person let alone a God? One person cannot speak word-for-word and in complete context to the next person - which renders gospel as gossip.
 
MHz
#26
Unless they were written by the ones who actually lived the events (for the NT), for the OT the oral book was written in the time that Daniel and a few friends were in Babylon so the Angels that visited them would have been able to make sure every jot was just where God wanted them to be.

If the two fit like a hand in a glove then the gossip part is pretty much eliminated.
 
lone wolf
#27
See why religion is losing out? Too many conditions on the man-made stuff.
 
DaSleeper
+1
#28
19 minutes of videos in a few minutes...good stuff
 
Colpy
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+1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

In the calamity that was the exploration (and conquest) of the 'new world' it was not 'the Church' who was in charge of the boats and the soldiers that were part of those same boats. For lack of a better term it was the 'Governments of various Nations' and the slaughters they caused were at the orders of those same Government(s) and the main objective of that exploration was the search for newer and larger 'treasures' which was the prize the bankers were after. At least spread out the fact correctly as 'fixing religion' isn't going to dampen the evils that the Governments and Banks would still bring to the table.

Well, you know.......we could ignore the fact that the Catholic Church had Spanish priests ask curious groups of natives if they would like to accept Christ as their saviour.......in Latin.........and their refusal to answer was taken as a rejection of Christ, so the conquistadors were ordered to open fire.......

Or we can ignore the ejection of the Jesuits by the Pope from Portugese South America, and the ensuing slaughter of "tamed" native populations..........see the film The MIssion with Robert deNiro for an extremely accurate historical recounting of events.

It is also true that the cause of natives was taken up with great success by a Dominican, Bartholemew de las Casas......after a "road to Damascus" conversion from native slave owner........

But whitewashing the Catholic Church is ridiculous.
 
MHz
#30
Since it isn't being followed (by the book, literally) maybe God saw that coming, no maybe's here is the verse and the falling away is from the truth of the original teachings. A Nation where Christians are 'supposed to be' the main force would not be waging 'perpetual war' on the weakest Nations in the World, it's that easy to understand. That doesn't automatically mean the gathering is anytime soon, this might be the half-way point so another 2,000 years and then the events related to the final few years will begin to unfold.

2Th.2:1
Now we beseech you,
brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th.2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled,
neither by spirit,
nor by word,
nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th.2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;


Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Spanish priests ask curious groups of natives if they would like to accept Christ as their saviour.......in Latin.........and their refusal to answer was taken as a rejection of Christ, so the conquistadors were ordered to open fire.......

What makes you think they only loaded their 'weapons' after the questions were asked, perhaps the Missionaries knew that if they did it the 'proper way' it would be them that was going to die via the already loaded muskets/swords/blankets?
 

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