The forged origins of the New Testament


darkbeaver
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#1
What the Church doesn't want you to know It has often been emphasised that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands
or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of
time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and
as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical
realities. The Church agrees, saying:
"Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its
earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which
we must, to a great extent, take for granted."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)
The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example,
when discussing the origin of those writings, "the most distinguished body of academic
opinion ever assembled" (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do
not go back to the first century of the Christian era" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed.,
vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the
earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the
Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that "the earliest of
the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the
middle of the fourth century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is
some 350 years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands of
Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of the biggest black
holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there were no New Testaments until the
fourth century: they were not written until then, and here we find evidence of the greatest
misrepresentation of all time.
It was British-born Flavius Constantinus (Constantine, originally Custennyn or
Custennin) (272–337) who authorised the compilation of the writings now called the New
Testament. After the death of his father in 306, Constantine became King of Britain, Gaul
and Spain, and then, after a series of victorious battles, Emperor of the Roman Empire.
Christian historians give little or no hint of the turmoil of the times and suspend
Constantine in the air, free of all human events happening around him. In truth, one of
Constantine's main problems was the uncontrollable disorder amongst presbyters and their
belief in numerous gods.
The majority of modern-day Christian writers suppress the truth about the development
of their religion and conceal Constantine's efforts to curb the disreputable character of the
presbyters who are now called "Church Fathers" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol.
xiv, pp. 370-1). They were "maddened", he said ( Life of Constantine, attributed to
Eusebius Pamphilius of Caesarea, c. 335, vol. iii, p. 171; The Nicene and Post-Nicene
F a t h e r s, cited as N & P N F, attributed to St Ambrose, Rev. Prof. Roberts, DD, and
Principal James Donaldson, LLD, editors, 1891, vol. iv, p. 467). The "peculiar type of
oratory" expounded by them was a challenge to a settled religious order (The Dictionary
of Classical Mythology, Religion, Literature and Art, Oskar Seyffert, Gramercy, New
York, 1995, pp. 544-5). Ancient records reveal the true nature of the presbyters, and the
low regard in which they were held has been subtly suppressed by modern Church
historians. In reality, they were:
"...the most rustic fellows, teaching strange paradoxes. They openly declared that none
but the ignorant was fit to hear their discourses ... they never appeared in the circles of the
In the fourth
century, the Roman
Emperor
Constantine united
all religious factions
under one
composite deity,
and ordered the
compilation of new
and old writings
into a uniform
collection that
became the New
Testament.
by Tony Bushby
© March 2007
Correspondence:
c/- NEXUS Magazine
PO Box 30
Mapleton, Qld 4560, Australia
Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381
JUNE – JULY 2007

For one year and
five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S.
L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii,
paragraphs 36, 41).
At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to
discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had
balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna,
Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c.
325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he
ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British
factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be
joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit
for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of
the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority
show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one
God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used
the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally
deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A


last quarter of the 19th century when English-language versions
of the Sinai Bible were published. Recorded within these pages is
information that disputes Christianity's claim of historicity.
Christians were provided with irrefutable evidence of wilful
falsifications in all modern New Testaments. So different was the
Sinai Bible's New Testament from versions then being published
that the Church angrily tried to annul the dramatic new evidence
that challenged its very existence. In a series of articles published
in the London Quarterly Review in 1883, John W. Burgon, Dean
of Chichester, used every rhetorical device at his disposal to
attack the Sinaiticus' earlier and opposing story of Jesus Christ,

glaring example is subtly revealed in the Encyclopaedia Biblica
(Adam & Charles Black, London, 1899, vol. iii, p. 3344), where
the Church divulges its knowledge about exclusions in old Bibles,
saying: "The remark has long ago and often been made that, like
Paul, even the earliest Gospels knew nothing of the miraculous
birth of our Saviour". That is because there never was a virgin
birth.
It is apparent that when Eusebius assembled scribes to write the
New Testimonies, he first produced a single document that
provided an exemplar or master version. Today it is called the
Gospel of Mark, and the Church admits that it was "the first
Gospel written" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p.
657), even though it appears second in the New Testament today.
The scribes of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were dependent
upon the Mark writing as the source and framework for the
compilation of their works. The Gospel of John is independent of
those writings, and the late-15th-century theory that it was written
later to support the earlier writings is the truth (The Crucifixion of
Truth, Tony Bushby, Joshua Books, 2004, pp. 33-40).
Thus, the Gospel of Mark in the Sinai Bible carries the "first"
story of Jesus Christ in history, one completely different to what
is in modern Bibles. It starts with Jesus "at about the age of
thirty" (Mark 1:9), and doesn't know of Mary, a virgin birth or
mass murders of baby boys by Herod. Words describing Jesus
Christ as "the son of God" do not appear in the opening narrative
as they do in today's editions (Mark 1:1), and the modern-day
family tree tracing a "messianic bloodline" back to King David is
non-existent in all ancient Bibles, as are the now-called
"messianic prophecies" (51 in total). The Sinai Bible carries a
conflicting version of events surrounding the "raising of Lazarus",
and reveals an extraordinary omission that later became the
central doctrine of the Christian faith: the resurrection
appearances of Jesus Christ and his ascension into Heaven. No
supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded
in any ancient Gospels of Mark, but a description of over 500
words now appears in modern Bibles (Mark 16:9-20).
JUNE – JULY 2007

Christianity was invented by crazy bull****ters.DB
--.
 
Cliffy
Avatar
#2
Christianity was invented by crazy bull****ters.DB

Do you think this is going to change anybody’s minds? The one thing that the faithful hold up as the foundation of the faith is that there is no proof to substantiate their beliefs. Now that it has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no validity to their story, it will only justify their faith even more! Kinda makes you wanna shake a few heads, eh!
 
dumpthemonarchy
#3
Religion is such a fraud. This must always be emphasized these days as religion has outlived its usefulness. Truly, the advances of the Age of Reason and the Scientific Revolution must pushed against forces of darkness and ignorance. With religion, it is just tougher to compromise in a complex world.


(why is it when we scroll down in "Reply to Thread" it is black letters on a dark blue background, so it is near impossible to read previous threads? This is a bug that needs fixing)
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Christianity was invented by crazy bull****ters.DB

Do you think this is going to change anybody’s minds? The one thing that the faithful hold up as the foundation of the faith is that there is no proof to substantiate their beliefs. Now that it has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no validity to their story, it will only justify their faith even more! Kinda makes you wanna shake a few heads, eh!

Good-day Cliffy. I believe it will change those who have surviving remnants of criticle facaulties. But it's best purpose is reinforcement for soft athiests in danger of infection in these trying times. I have in my arthritic condition adopted a policy of hands off as regards christians mainly because I can no longer outrun thier mobs of firewood carrying thugsOgod. However martyrdom may be better than silence, as it would be a mortal sin not to warn the unwary traveler of the illusory road ahead. Thusly I hope to circumvent the evil dictates of the church while I live but take full advantage of any residual benifits in any afterlife through the good but unchristian works performed pro-bono in this life.
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Religion is such a fraud. This must always be emphasized these days as religion has outlived its usefulness. Truly, the advances of the Age of Reason and the Scientific Revolution must pushed against forces of darkness and ignorance. With religion, it is just tougher to compromise in a complex world.


(why is it when we scroll down in "Reply to Thread" it is black letters on a dark blue background, so it is near impossible to read previous threads? This is a bug that needs fixing)

Hello dumpthemonarchy, while I agree but not entirely, we should qualify a bit, it, (religion) still enjoys great employment so while it has been proven a debilitating influence on the masses it's future is assured by it's owner operators, it being the opiate that stuns the flock into submission and mass consummerism.
 
MHz
#6
LOL It is more than a bit ironic that most people reject any/all things promoted by the RCC and suddenly this article becomes more truthful than the Gospels themselves.

Are you sure there are 500 words in (Mark 16:9-20)?
Last edited by MHz; Jan 7th, 2009 at 10:29 AM..
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

LOL It is more than a bit ironic that most people reject any/all things promoted by the RCC and suddenly this article becomes more truthful than the Gospels themselves.

That is an untrue statement MHZ.The origin of the Gospels is well enough understood by those who care to overcome thier bias and use the facaulties provided by natures benevolent aspect. You are free to resist history and repeat the errors that lead to hell. The Gospels have everything to offer us in the ways of man and nothing whatever of the ways of god. Christ was born in a conspiracy of fiction sixteen hundred years ago to advance and consolodate the interests of an empire. He was entirely built of previously owned parts.
 
MHz
#8
You don't have to resist history to reject the slant of your article. Please define what was old and what was new in this quote from your article."the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament."

I don't think it can even be proved in which language the original Gospels and Epistles were written in.
--
(in part)
"Hebrew Words Out of Place? A peculiar discrepancy within the New Testament is this: if the New Testament were originally composed in Greek, why does it contain many untranslated Hebrew words? Why did the writers go to all the trouble of preserving Hebrew terms in their Greek writings?
The only valid explanation is that the Greek language had no equivalent words for these uniquely Hebrew terms taken from an original Hebrew text and translated into Greek.
These Hebrew survivals attest to a Hebrew original - and a Greek (and English) translation that brought them across unchanged from the Hebrew.
The following HEBREW words are included in the King James New Testament, as taken from the Greek translation (some are Aramaic).
Abba ("dearest father"); Messiah ("Anointed one"); Rabbi ("my teacher"); hosanna ("Save! We beseech"); Amen (suggests trust, faithfulness); talitha cumi ("maid arise"); ephphatha ("be opened"); corban ("a dedicated gift"); Sabbath ("repose", "desist" from exertion); Satan ("adversary"); mammon ("riches"); raca ("to spit in one's face"); cummin (herb); Maranatha ("Master, I pray you overthrow"); Passover ("pass over"); Emmanuel (title meaning "El with us"); Eli lama Sabachthani ("my El, why have you forsaken me?")
Even more compelling evidence for a New Testament originally composed in Hebrew is found in the clear Hebrew word order extant in the New Testament. Many sentences contain the verb-noun reversal common to Hebrew and Semitic languages.
Scholars also have long recognized that the grammar of the New Testament does not befit good Greek, but does reflect excellent Hebrew grammar.
In addition, many Hebraic idioms and expressions are scattered throughout the New Testament. Had the original been composed in Greek, these sayings would have been put into Greek form and expression.
For example, what did Yahsha and others mean by statements that don't make good sense in Greek (Or English) but are powerful in the Hebrew? Such expressions include: "If your eye is evil" (Matt. 6:23); "let the dead bury the dead" (Matt. 8:22); "for if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry" (Luke 23:31), and "thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" (Shaul in Rom. 12:20).
Numerous examples of Semitic poetry and reverse couplets (chiasmus) are dead giveaways to the original Hebrew of these books. Hebrew is also distinct for its colorful descriptions of simple, common acts.
For example, a beautiful expression in classical Hebrew is found in Luke 16:23: "...he lift up his eyes...and saw..." Other sayings peculiar to Hebrew and found in the Evangels include: "Lay these sayings in your years," "Cast out your name as evil," "He set his face to go," and "The appearance of his countenance was altered."
Whole sentences or paragraphs in the New Testament can be retranslated word for word back into the Hebrew. Luke 10:5-6 is just one example: "And into whatsoever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again." This passage is a synthesis of vivid Hebrew idioms unknown in the Greek."

At what point did the RCC start using their Latin version of Scripture?
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

LOL It is more than a bit ironic that most people reject any/all things promoted by the RCC and suddenly this article becomes more truthful than the Gospels themselves.

Are you sure there are 500 words in (Mark 16:9-20)?

I think the point made by the article MHZ is that it's alll been adjustable from the beginning, now wheather it had five hundred pages or four hundred and ninty two or whatever is imaterial. Are you sure that Mark is "christian" material because as I understand it there is no prototypical christian that dosen't look like someone else from the nieghbourhood, someones got thier prophets mixed up with everybody elses. They didn't think we would ever read enough to figure it out and spent fifteen centuries discourageing the practice.
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

You don't have to resist history to reject the slant of your article. Please define what was old and what was new in this quote from your article."the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament."
I don't think it can even be proved in which language the original Gospels and Epistles were written in.
Hebrew/Aramaic Origin
(in part)
"Hebrew Words Out of Place? A peculiar discrepancy within the New Testament is this: if the New Testament were originally composed in Greek, why does it contain many untranslated Hebrew words? Why did the writers go to all the trouble of preserving Hebrew terms in their Greek writings?
The only valid explanation is that the Greek language had no equivalent words for these uniquely Hebrew terms taken from an original Hebrew text and translated into Greek.
These Hebrew survivals attest to a Hebrew original - and a Greek (and English) translation that brought them across unchanged from the Hebrew.
The following HEBREW words are included in the King James New Testament, as taken from the Greek translation (some are Aramaic).
Abba ("dearest father"); Messiah ("Anointed one"); Rabbi ("my teacher"); hosanna...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Hebrews were employed as scribes all over the known world for many centuries MHZ I don't get your point. The original biblical language dosen't exist all the stories are derived from diverse lingustic sources. Are you perchance looking for the one true language of god? I'm unfamiliar with it myself?
 
Tyr
Avatar
#11
One has to remember that the "gospels" were a product of Constantine and those that were "allowed" to go forward were those that fit within his particular geopolitical framework. Meaning, if there was a "gospel" that Constantine didn't agree with or was critical of his vision, it was simply left out.

If you take each gospel in a side-by-side comparison, they differ radically in the interpretation of such things as the cruxifiction and resurrection

It's generally accepted the the Gospel of John is the one most acccepted by Christians and the other three are littoral guides

Without any "concrete" proof (and there isn't any), most non-christians tend to objectively look upon the bible as stylized fiction.

What is truly incrdible is that nearly 70 million americans and 3 million Canadians see that bible literally. They don't seem to need "proof", but rather rely on the "faith" imbibed in them from a book that has no basis in fact.

Religion in any shape or form is somewhat of a personal crutch to enable people to understand what they can't seem to cope with - reality
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

One has to remember that the "gospels" were a product of Constantine and those that were "allowed" to go forward were those that fit within his particular geopolitical framework. Meaning, if there was a "gospel" that Constantine didn't agree with or was critical of his vision, it was simply left out.

If you take each gospel in a side-by-side comparison, they differ radically in the interpretation of such things as the cruxifiction and resurrection

It's generally accepted the the Gospel of John is the one most acccepted by Christians and the other three are littoral guides

Without any "concrete" proof (and there isn't any), most non-christians tend to objectively look upon the bible as stylized fiction.

What is truly incrdible is that nearly 70 million americans and 3 million Canadians see that bible literally. They don't seem to need "proof", but rather rely on the "faith" imbibed in them from a book that has no basis in fact.

Religion in any shape or form is somewhat of a personal crutch to enable people to understand what they can't seem to cope with - reality

So in fact Constantine was as close as christianity ever got to god. It was and is an administrative manual for **** sake. Of course that dosen't in any way discount the five or six per-cent of it that may in fact be practically usefull to the adherants.
 
Tyr
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#13
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

So in fact Constantine was as close as christianity ever got to god. It was and is an administrative manual for **** sake. Of course that dosen't in any way discount the five or six per-cent of it that may in fact be practically usefull to the adherants.

So in fact Constantine was as close as christianity ever got to god.

The fact that Constantine considered himself the earthly manifestation of "God" is the closet the christian god ever came to being reality

I still think GOD is a North Korean Punk Band
 
Tyr
Avatar
#14
I wonder (I've haven't done the research) why the "other" gospels were left out of the New Testament and why Mark 16:19-20 was left in even though it's accepted (even by christians) that it wasn't written by Mark?

Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Peter
Infancy Gospels
Harmonies
Marcion's gospel of Luke
Gospel of Judas
 
Spade
#15
Constantine is one scary Christian dude!

YouTube - Constantine Trailer

 
Spade
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

I wonder (I've haven't done the research) why the "other" gospels were left out of the New Testament and why Mark 16:19-20 was left in even though it's accepted (even by christians) that it wasn't written by Mark?

Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Peter
Infancy Gospels
Harmonies
Marcion's gospel of Luke
Gospel of Judas

Who Gnows?

The Gnostic Gospels. Morton Stith . icollege lecture

 
MHz
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

One has to remember that the "gospels" were a product of Constantine and those that were "allowed" to go forward were those that fit within his particular geopolitical framework. Meaning, if there was a "gospel" that Constantine didn't agree with or was critical of his vision, it was simply left out.

To 'remember' means recalling a sight (or another real-time sense)observed as it unfolded. We are readers of somebody else's memories as they recalled it. That is what we have. Constantine had to settle a dead-lock after more than a year, if there were no documents there should have been no disagreement as to what should be decided on. After several hundred years how many copies of copies of copies could there have been? After reading the 'existing many copies' Constantine concluded that 'God' (and all the minor variations of that word) matched many 'gods' that he would have been taught over the years as his religion.

For Jesus to promote His Gospels there would have been at least 1 copy when Peter got the word it was time to include Gentiles. Paul may have had 1 or more copies on his 1st journey in teaching about Jesus. (the earliest ones would be the most accurate if divinely inspired, if it is the work of men the later 'copies' should be more polished (error free), which way is it?

Quote:

If you take each gospel in a side-by-side comparison, they differ radically in the interpretation of such things as the cruxifiction and resurrection

The only promise Jesus gave them was that they would have help from Heaven in remembering His exact words. Try comparing the 'quotes' attributed to Jesus and day-to-day things. The quotes should be noticeably more accurate. The earliest they could have been written down is after the last event. To say that Mark was written first could be true, it is also the shortest of the 4 Gospels. Nor does a virgin birth have to be mentioned by every writer for it to be a requirement for truth about Scripture. There are two accounts given, one from the house of David and the other from the house of Aaron, how many baby pictures do you need? The later times are more exciting anyways. More is written about those times, the book is big enough as it is.

Quote:

It's generally accepted the the Gospel of John is the one most accepted by Christians and the other three are littoral guides

Today's experts don't even know who the 'beloved disciple' is, why would anyone believe anything they have to say about bigger and more important events?
3 were written by Apostles, the 5 Books attributed to John are written by a Disciple, not an Apostle.

Quote:

Without any "concrete" proof (and there isn't any), most non-christians tend to objectively look upon the bible as stylized fiction.

Even the soap-opera writers of today could not write a script half as complicated or intertwined as the two Testaments.

Quote:

What is truly incrdible is that nearly 70 million americans and 3 million Canadians see that bible literally. They don't seem to need "proof", but rather rely on the "faith" imbibed in them from a book that has no basis in fact.

Over the 1900+ years it doesn't appear to have done much to curb persecution. Since that was it's original purpose exactly what religion are those 73 million people who call Christ Lord and then do not do the things He has said should be done? Since Christ disowns them who are they? A person is a Christian when they act like one, anything else makes the a liar if that is who they claim to be. Two strikes at once might catch a lot of people off guard.

Quote:

Religion in any shape or form is somewhat of a personal crutch to enable people to understand what they can't seem to cope with - reality

You could say the same about any group. It isn't like Jews and Christians are the very first examples of persecution based on there being two groups. Nations are different groups of similar people, they don't always get along with each other . Groups by themselves create tension. 100 people can pass by each other without there being much tension if they are all in groups of two or three. Put those 100 people into two groups and when they pass there is more tension. Neighbouring towns can have a feud going because of a hockey game (or something similar).

Religion shouldn't have a bearing on how you make your living in a carnal world but it does. Native language can sort people just as fast as belief can.
 
Tyr
Avatar
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

To 'remember' means recalling a sight (or another real-time sense)observed as it unfolded. We are readers of somebody else's memories as they recalled it. That is what we have. Constantine had to settle a dead-lock after more than a year, if there were no documents there should have been no disagreement as to what should be decided on. After several hundred years how many copies of copies of copies could there have been? After reading the 'existing many copies' Constantine concluded that 'God' (and all the minor variations of that word) matched many 'gods' that he would have been taught over the years as his religion.
For Jesus to promote His Gospels there would have been at least 1 copy when Peter got the word it was time to include Gentiles. Paul may have had 1 or more copies on his 1st journey in teaching about Jesus. (the earliest ones would be the most accurate if divinely inspired, if it is the work of men the later 'copies' should be more polished (error free), which way is it?
The only promise Jesus gave them was that they would have help from Heaven in remembering His exact words. Try comparing the 'quotes' attributed to Jesus and day-to-day things. The quotes should be noticeably more accurate. The earliest they could have been written down is after the last event. To say that Mark was written first could be true, it is also the shortest of the 4 Gospels. Nor does a virgin birth have to be mentioned by every writer for it to...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Ok. um... I read through your replies a few times and didn't get much clarification. Alot of conjecture, but most of the answers skirted the issue
 
Tyr
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Who Gnows?

The Gnostic Gospels. Morton Stith . icollege lecture

the gnshadow?
 
MHz
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

I think the point made by the article MHZ is that it's alll been adjustable from the beginning, now wheather it had five hundred pages or four hundred and ninty two or whatever is imaterial. Are you sure that Mark is "christian" material because as I understand it there is no prototypical christian that dosen't look like someone else from the nieghbourhood, someones got thier prophets mixed up with everybody elses. They didn't think we would ever read enough to figure it out and spent fifteen centuries discourageing the practice.

If the Bible discouraged usury would a Banker (to a point) try and discourage his clients from believing they were intitled to 0% interest loans. Jews are bankers today, in the OT they could charge Gentiles interest, the NT took that away from them (as well as many other things). If the Bible says no interest loans to anybody who makes less than the Bankers and interest is only charged to those (including companies) who make more pay all needed interest. Would a Jewish Banker try and mess up the understanding so they could keep charging interest to the 'poor' while they are the richest in the land?
If you see the Bible as being false does that make the usury topic useless? A loan to a 'brother' or 'stranger' should have the same interest. The least burden is put on the poor, and the ones who use larges amounts daily pay the service charges. (most likey a modest rate if bankers made a modest salary, if they are money hungry get a 2nd job)

True NT views about war also have to be suppressed. Pretty hard to make weapons of war for 40hrs/wk and then spend a few hours talking about helping others as the way to spend the next week when they go back to the same machine since demand is always high.

Quote:

Hebrews were employed as scribes all over the known world for many centuries MHZ I don't get your point. The original biblical language dosen't exist all the stories are derived from diverse lingustic sources. Are you perchance looking for the one true language of god? I'm unfamiliar with it myself?

They did collect taxes for Rome so it is logical that they could communicate with their employers in at least 1 language, I'm sure they were also selective in who they taught their language to. I wonder if there is some records as to what businesses Jews outside of Israel were engaged in?
That is sign of prophecy, everybody understands a pure language, it isn't any dialect of anything we have today, including Hebrew or Aramaic. The pure language was lost at the tower of Babel, it returns only when Christ is back, the passage is quite long as it is that whole book, 3 pages total. lol.

Zep:3:9:
For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one consent.
Last edited by MHz; Jan 7th, 2009 at 09:09 PM..
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#21
[quote=MHz;1035706]
Over the 1900+ years it doesn't appear to have done much to curb persecution. Since that was it's original purpose exactly what religion are those 73 million people who call Christ Lord and then do not do the things He has said should be done? Since Christ disowns them who are they? A person is a Christian when they act like one, anything else makes the a liar if that is who they claim to be. Two strikes at once might catch a lot of people off guard.

Do you see this persecution as integral to christianity and could there in your estimation be no christianity without it (the persecution)? How important is this persecution in the definition of christianity?
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

They did collect taxes for Rome so it is logical that they could communicate with their employers in at least 1 language, I'm sure they were also selective in who they taught their language to. I wonder if there is some records as to what businesses Jews outside of Israel were engaged in?
That is sign of prophecy, everybody understands a pure language, it isn't any dialect of anything we have today, including Hebrew or Aramaic. The pure language was lost at the tower of Babel, it returns only when Christ is back, the passage is quite long as it is that whole book, 3 pages total. lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post


Zep:3:9:
For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
that they may all call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one consent.


I seem to recall a large body of Hebraic history called the Talmud and numerous tracts dealing with banking and philosophy and science right back to beyond Babylon and right up to the present.


I think maybe the very nice flick Spade provided indicates that you don't speak that language or think it but you must intuit the aspects of god with it. I'll watch the other half of the lecture tomorrow. Nevertheless it's interesting stuff, but dangerous in that the known result of the debate will lead to virtual bloodshed.
Last edited by darkbeaver; Jan 7th, 2009 at 09:51 PM..
 
MHz
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

Ok. um... I read through your replies a few times and didn't get much clarification. Alot of conjecture, but most of the answers skirted the issue

That subject is the origin of the Gospels.
Putting it 100's of years later than first possible moment would sure get a rise out of some Christians because they swear it all passed by about 100AD. lol I fail to see how the history listed below could ever come to mean that there were no writings before that time in question 300+AD

(from a previous link)

"The general rules to be included in the later canons were:
  • It had to be written or sponsored by an apostle.
  • It had to have orthodox content.
  • It had to be publically used by a prominent church or a majority of churches.
Some books which appeared to meet these rules were later dropped when proved to be forgeries, such as the Acts of Paul. Approximate dating of the development of the New Testament: AD 200AD 250AD 300AD 400
Muratorian Canon (200AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
James
I & II John
Jude
Revelation of John
Revelation of Peter
Wisdom of Solomin

for private study:
Shepherd of Hermas Origen's collection (250AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
I Peter
I John
Revelation of John

disputed:
Hebrews
James
II Peter
II & III John
Jude
Shepherd of Hermas
Letter of Barnabas
Teaching of Twelve (Didache)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Eusebius's collection (300AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
I Peter
I John
Revelation of John

disputed:
Hebrews
James
II Peter
II & III John
Jude

Purposely excluded: Shepherd of Hermas
Letter of Barnabas
Teaching of Twelve (Didache)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Revelation of Peter
Acts of Peter
Council of Carthage (400AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
Hebrews
James
I & II Peter
I, II, & III John
Revelation of John

Would that also include which Gospel of John if in 350AD they had 350 copies all from various dates in that time-frame? How would they decide which of two minor variations was the correct one.

What would you call 'concrete proof'? One trumpet has 1/3 of mankind die in 1,110 days. If you use 6.66 billion that would be 20million killed each and every day for over 3 full years, would that be proof?
Last edited by MHz; Jan 7th, 2009 at 10:06 PM..
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

That subject is the origin of the Gospels.
Putting it 100's of years later than first possible moment would sure get a rise out of some Christians because they swear it all passed by about 100AD. lol I fail to see how the history listed below could ever come to mean that there were no writings before that time in question 300+AD

(from a previous link)

"The general rules to be included in the later canons were:

  • It had to be written or sponsored by an apostle.
  • It had to have orthodox content.
  • It had to be publically used by a prominent church or a majority of churches.
Some books which appeared to meet these rules were later dropped when proved to be forgeries, such as the Acts of Paul. Approximate dating of the development of the New Testament: AD 200AD 250AD 300AD 400
Muratorian Canon (200AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
James
I & II John
Jude
Revelation of John
Revelation of Peter
Wisdom of Solomin

for private study:
Shepherd of Hermas Origen's collection (250AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
I Peter
I John
Revelation of John

disputed:
Hebrews
James
II Peter
II & III John
Jude
Shepherd of Hermas
Letter of Barnabas
Teaching of Twelve (Didache)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Eusebius's collection (300AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
I Peter
I John
Revelation of John

disputed:
Hebrews
James
II Peter
II & III John
Jude

Purposely excluded: Shepherd of Hermas
Letter of Barnabas
Teaching of Twelve (Didache)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Revelation of Peter
Acts of Peter
Council of Carthage (400AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
Hebrews
James
I & II Peter
I, II, & III John
Revelation of John

Would that also include which Gospel of John if in 350AD they had 350 copies all from various dates in that time-frame? How would they decide which of two minor variations was the correct one.

What would you call 'concrete proof'? One trumpet has 1/3 of mankind die in 1,110 days. If you use 6.66 billion that would be 20million killed each and every day for over 3 full years, would that be proof?



MHZ the cataclysmic history of the earth produced miracles of every sort, species extermination has been repeated millions and millions of times, mankind was lucky and is only one organism under god/sparky and as such has absolutly no right or privilage even the thickness of a cigarrette papers difference from all other organisms. If your god won't allow my dear departed cat into heaven to see me what bloody good is he/she/it anyway?IMHO
 
Tyr
Avatar
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

That subject is the origin of the Gospels.
Putting it 100's of years later than first possible moment would sure get a rise out of some Christians because they swear it all passed by about 100AD. lol I fail to see how the history listed below could ever come to mean that there were no writings before that time in question 300+AD

(from a previous link)

"The general rules to be included in the later canons were:

  • It had to be written or sponsored by an apostle.
  • It had to have orthodox content.
  • It had to be publically used by a prominent church or a majority of churches.
Some books which appeared to meet these rules were later dropped when proved to be forgeries, such as the Acts of Paul. Approximate dating of the development of the New Testament: AD 200AD 250AD 300AD 400
Muratorian Canon (200AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
James
I & II John
Jude
Revelation of John
Revelation of Peter
Wisdom of Solomin

for private study:
Shepherd of Hermas Origen's collection (250AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
I Peter
I John
Revelation of John

disputed:
Hebrews
James
II Peter
II & III John
Jude
Shepherd of Hermas
Letter of Barnabas
Teaching of Twelve (Didache)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Eusebius's collection (300AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
I Peter
I John
Revelation of John

disputed:
Hebrews
James
II Peter
II & III John
Jude

Purposely excluded: Shepherd of Hermas
Letter of Barnabas
Teaching of Twelve (Didache)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Revelation of Peter
Acts of Peter
Council of Carthage (400AD)
Four Gospels
Acts
Pauls Letters: Romans, I & II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col. I & II Thess., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon
Hebrews
James
I & II Peter
I, II, & III John
Revelation of John

Would that also include which Gospel of John if in 350AD they had 350 copies all from various dates in that time-frame? How would they decide which of two minor variations was the correct one.

What would you call 'concrete proof'? One trumpet has 1/3 of mankind die in 1,110 days. If you use 6.66 billion that would be 20million killed each and every day for over 3 full years, would that be proof?

verifiable, physical evidence.

The Shroud of Turin doesn't count (nor the "photos" of Noah's Ark) - it actually leads one to believe that none of the "historical" dicyum spouted by the "church" is any closer to the "truth"
 
Tyr
Avatar
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

MHZ the cataclysmic history of the earth produced miracles of every sort, species extermination has been repeated millions and millions of times, mankind was lucky and is only one organism under god/sparky and as such has absolutly no right or privilage even the thickness of a cigarrette papers difference from all other organisms. If your god won't allow my dear departed cat into heaven to see me what bloody good is he/she/it anyway?IMHO
[/color]

why would The Blood and The Grail not be the truth? People certainly belive it and some experts debunk it. Much the same as the bible. Some believe it and some believe it's quaint fiction
 
Cliffy
Avatar
#27
I does seem rather ludicrous to put ones faith in some ink on paper. The bible was written by man in the same way that Tarzan was written by man. Take any book and with a good PR job you could make religion out of it. Just look at Scientology - written by a second rate Sci-fi author. What makes anybody think the authors of their "holy" books are any different - a good PR job on gullible minds.

All I would have to do is say my last book was inspired by god and i could start my own religion. As my friend said, "There is a seeker born every minute."
 
MHz
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

MHZ the cataclysmic history of the earth produced miracles of every sort, species extermination has been repeated millions and millions of times, mankind was lucky and is only one organism under god/sparky and as such has absolutly no right or privilage even the thickness of a cigarrette papers difference from all other organisms. If your god won't allow my dear departed cat into heaven to see me what bloody good is he/she/it anyway?IMHO
[/color]

Well your cat cannot enter Heaven because it does not know the difference between good and evil (officially). That does not eliminate a return to life after the start of the new earth. What good is eternal life and being in charge of living beings if they perish after only a few breaths? Scripture says God knows when a sparrow loses it's breath (returns to Him, the owner of that breath), being a God of life would mean He could have written the Bible in such a way as to allow for that possibility. That could also be pleasing to the 4 that stand around the Throne in Re:5. "After their kind' in Ge:1 could be referencing them. If a 'small one' (least important are the ones who come alive at Judgement Day) can become a great Nation then that would also mean having greats herds and such (as well as 'relatives). The more people that qualify for eternal life the faster the initial bloom. The more people there are the more 'ground needs tilling', the more ground the more living things are needed to occupy that new ground, after past life is living again the pace would slow to normal expansion of numbers. Vs:1-21 indicates lots of activity.
Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Names that have been used in this earth (for places and things) can be used again in the new earth.
If camels can be restored then cats could also be, a well as sparrows, etc.
 
MHz
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

verifiable, physical evidence.

Luckily for you there are lots of examples coming up. Resurrection from physical death to flesh and bone will be quite hard to ignore, especially if you experience it yourself. Going around trying to dig up proof just means you'll die tired.
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

why would The Blood and The Grail not be the truth? People certainly belive it and some experts debunk it. Much the same as the bible. Some believe it and some believe it's quaint fiction

The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail only points to the near impenetratable mess of history. In that way it illuminates the preposterous. For me it was a look at management rather than anything else. Gods responsible for that mess, if in fact Jesus is acted as his agent for the earth franchise I believe he's a criminal and could in reality be brought up on a pile of charges. And should be. haha
 

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