With what flag should Canada honour Vimy Ridge?

I think not

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Veterans groups want to mark anniversary with ensign under which soldiers fought

ALEX DOBROTA
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

OTTAWA — Nearly a century ago, Canadian soldiers crossed a muddy ridge in Vimy, France, as they fought and died under a flag relegated since to history -- the Red Ensign.

Today, a group of campaigners and veterans groups are mired in a fight with the federal bureaucracy to hoist that standard once more over Vimy Ridge.

But Ottawa is yielding not an inch. Next month, on the battle's 90th anniversary, the Maple Leaf, Canada's official flag since 1965, will fly alone at the newly restored Canadian National Vimy Memorial, a spokeswoman said.

And the Red Ensign will only be displayed inside an interpretative centre nearby, she said.

"That's a flag that more that 111,000 people died under -- what's going on here?" asked John Heyes, a retired public servant who has been lobbying Veterans Affairs Canada.

"For me, my granddad was in the Great War and he was wounded twice in France," Mr. Heyes said. "I look at this and say 'why isn't that flag going to be there?' "

As many as 3,598 Canadians died at Vimy in April of 1917, during what many consider as this country's greatest deed of arms.

Mr. Heyes and Bill Bishop, a B.C. maintenance worker, have led the brunt of the charge against Ottawa, sending hundreds of letters to government departments and MPs.

They want the Red Ensign to fly alongside the Maple Leaf at Vimy. And their campaign has garnered support from a dozen Ontario branches of the Royal Canadian Legion and from the RCMP Veterans' Association.

The proposal was also endorsed by Conservative MP Jason Kenney, the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and Canadian identity. In a letter penned this year, Mr. Kenney said he approved of the idea of both flags flying over Vimy commemoration ceremonies, Mr. Heyes said.

But Veterans Affairs cited a governmental protocol that allows no other flag than the Maple Leaf to fly on federal property. The land on which the Vimy Memorial was build was donated to Canada by France.
"We know where the veterans are coming from . . . but we have to follow protocol," said Janice Summerby, a spokeswoman for Veterans Affairs.

The Red Ensign, a British naval flag, replaced the Union Jack as Canada's official standard a few years after Confederation.

Many Canadian soldiers who went into battles in the two world wars under the Red Ensign are not willing to give up their standard, veterans' advocates said.

And the latest debate has laid bare an old wound with veterans, while dividing historians, experts on both sides said.

"A lot of veterans are actually saying, 'when I am buried I want the Red Ensign [draped] over my coffin,' " said Dianne Crompton, president of the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 486.

The Dominion Institute, an organization that promotes Canadian history, is also sympathetic to the veterans' claims.

"The country they were fighting for was as much Britain as it was Canada," said Rudyard Griffiths, executive director. "The flag debate, for a lot of veterans is still not gone away."

But at least one historian would like to see that debate buried in the annals of history. David Bercuson, of the University of Calgary, said the Red Ensign was only adopted with the understanding that it was to be replaced by a permanent standard.

"The ensign was never an official flag," Prof. Bercuson said. "We left that behind 42 years ago and I don't see why anybody would want to revisit that."

On April 9, 1917, more than 15,000 Canadian soldiers attacked the heavily fortified positions at Vimy Ridge, advancing behind a barrage of artillery fire that swept through the German trenches.

Canadians captured the ridge within three days, realizing what French and British soldiers at the time considered an impossible task.

The Union Jack: Properly known as the Royal Union Flag, it has been flown in Canada as far back as 1621. While the Red Ensign had flown on government buildings since Confederation, its use on land was never formally sanctioned. In 1904, with the patriotic fervour toward the British Empire after the Boer War, the Union Jack was again hoisted above the Parliament Buildings, and was the flag Canadian troops carried into the First World War.

The Red Ensign: Also known as the Canadian Merchant Marine flag. This red flag with the Union Jack in the upper left corner, accompanied by a shield with the quartered arms of the first four provinces to join Confederation, was used as Canada's national flag from 1870 to 1904. As other provinces joined Confederation, their provincial arms were incorporated into the shield.

Canadian Red Ensign: In 1921 the Canadian government's request for a grant of arms was approved by King George V. In 1924, an order-in-council formalized the new Canadian Red Ensign with the new Canadian Coat of Arms, replacing the composite shield of provincial arms. The order also allowed the country to display this symbol on its government buildings abroad. A 1945 order-in-council permitted the Canadian Red Ensign to be used on federal buildings until a national flag could be designed.

The Maple Leaf: In 1964, Prime Minister Lester Pearson informed Parliament of the government's intention to have a national flag designed ahead of the nation's centennial celebration of Confederation. The new design was approved by both houses in December, 1964, and proclaimed by the Queen on Feb. 15, 1965.

Globe & Mail
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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My personal opinion?

The Red Ensign at top and the Maple Leaf flown upside down and at half mast, beneath it.
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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My wife's great grandfather died at Vimy Ridge. She is very much looking forward to April 9.
 

Sparrow

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Nov 12, 2006
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I agree but this is again petty politics being more important than our soldiers who died. This proves exactly what our government thinks of its people.
 

Curiosity

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The military has strict protocol - included in that protocol is regulation knowledge of appopriate insignia and flag raising/handling/storage/destruction

The military should honor the flag under which the slain and military of that era fought under. For them there is no other for Vimy Ridge the only honorable one to be raised.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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Newfoundland!


the red ensign. for reference's sake. I didnt know what it looked like. I suppose there might be others.
 

Curiosity

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This part of Canadian history is all but forgotten....

Here is a link to a fantastic story of the feats these brave men pulled off....

http://www.talkingproud.us/HistoryVimyRidge.html

A bit more history from Wiki

In the British-led Battle of Arras during the 1917 campaign, the only military success was the capture of Vimy Ridge by the Canadian forces under Sir Arthur Currie and Julian Byng. It provided the British allies with great military advantage that had a lasting impact on the war and is considered by many historians as the founding myth of Canada.
re of Vimy Ridge by the Canadian forces under Sir Arthur Currie and Julian Byng. It provided the British allies with great military advantage that had a lasting impact on the war and is considered by many historians as the founding myth of Canada.
 
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snfu73

disturber of the peace
This may sound bad...but...why does it matter? Isn't it the people who are more important...why fight over what flag is involved? To me, flags aren't all that important, but that is my opinion. What is important is that, if people want to honour these folks, do so...and focus on them. I dunno....maybe I'm way off, but.
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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I would prefer to see the Canadian maple leaf. They fought for this country, not the old flag. The maple leaf represents everyone who has ever been Canadian. Flying an old flag makes it look like they only fought for past generations. I'm sure they would be proud to feel they fought for us as well.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
I would prefer to see the Canadian maple leaf. They fought for this country, not the old flag. The maple leaf represents everyone who has ever been Canadian. Flying an old flag makes it look like they only fought for past generations. I'm sure they would be proud to feel they fought for us as well.
In reality...they fought for humanity...for the world.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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I would prefer to see the Canadian maple leaf. They fought for this country, not the old flag. The maple leaf represents everyone who has ever been Canadian. Flying an old flag makes it look like they only fought for past generations. I'm sure they would be proud to feel they fought for us as well.


Funny, as I recall my great grandfathers diaries, he fought for the British Empire. So it would seem that we shouldn't put up a Canadian flag (as much as I'd like to) just because nearing a century later..we don't hold the same values as our ancestors. An ever increasing number of Canadians (it may already be a Majority) didn't even have Canadian Ancestors in that fight.

I didn't , My great grandfather was in my stepfathers line. My maternal side were draft dodgers and my paternal were in Europe.
 

tamarin

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Jun 12, 2006
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The Red Ensign for sure. A wonderful flag before the machinations of the Liberal Party got hold of it. I remember the flag flap well. Many in Old Canada were ignored and the Libs under pacifist Lester B won the day. I still see the Ensign on lawns around here. Good to see some still honour our heritage.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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The Red Ensign for sure. A wonderful flag before the machinations of the Liberal Party got hold of it. I remember the flag flap well. Many in Old Canada were ignored and the Libs under pacifist Lester B won the day. I still see the Ensign on lawns around here. Good to see some still honour our heritage.

maybe you could tell us what happened? Us young foreigners and people who are just plain ignorant
 

CDNBear

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My wifes great grandfather:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=1568014

She has diaries and war letters of his. No doubt he was Canadian. She votes for the maple leaf.
I wish I could thank him personally Kreskin, but I can't, so with all my best and humblest sincerity, please extend to your wife, mine and my families, honest appreciation for his valiant and heroic efforts.

He may be gone, but he will never be forgotten, Je me Souviens.
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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I wish I could thank him personally Kreskin, but I can't, so with all my best and humblest sincerity, please extend to your wife, mine and my families, honest appreciation for his valiant and heroic efforts.

He may be gone, but he will never be forgotten, Je me Souviens.

Consider it done Bear. Nice of you to say that.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Consider it done Bear. Nice of you to say that.
It's my honour, Vimy put us on the map, young men like him are the stuff of legends, the men that built Canada and made it a nation.

His is the story that defines us as a Nation, if his story as with all those from a bygone era, were the forefront of our history lessons, I truly believe Canada would be a much different place.

Vimy Ridge, where blood and mud gave notice to the world, Canada was second to none.