Snakes have been kickin' it far longer than we realized

spaminator

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Snakes have been kickin' it far longer than we realized
Will Dunham, Reuters
First posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 01:45 PM EST
WASHINGTON, D.C. - Snakes have been slithering on Earth far longer than anyone ever realized.
Scientists on Tuesday described the four oldest-known snake fossils, the most ancient of which was a roughly 10-inch-long (25 cm) reptile called Eophis underwoodi unearthed in a quarry near Oxford, England, that lived about 167 million years ago.
The remarkable fossils from Britain, Portugal and the United States rewrite the history of snake evolution, pushing back snake origins by tens of millions of years.
Until now, the oldest snake fossil dated from about 102 million years ago, said University of Alberta paleontologist Michael Caldwell, who led the study published in the journal Nature Communications.
Scientists say snakes evolved from lizards, and a number of previously discovered fossils of primitive snakes featured small back legs.
Those described on Tuesday did not include entire skeletons, but the researchers say all four may have had some form of reduced forelimbs and hind limbs.
That does not mean they walked. "It seems probable that they were slithering, so to speak, though the limbs might still have been used for grasping," Caldwell said.
"Snakes have generated fear and fascination since ancient times," said paleontologist Sebastián Apesteguía of Argentina's National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET) and Universidad Maimonides, another of the researchers.
"However, we know very little about their very origins," added Apesteguía, who speculated the first snakes may have appeared about 190 million years ago.
The four snakes lived during the age of dinosaurs. Eophis, the oldest, was a swamp dweller that probably ate small minnows, insects and tadpoles.
The largest, named Portugalophis lignites and discovered in a coal mine in central Portugal, measured about 4 feet (1.2 meters) and was 155 million years old. It may have eaten small mammals, young dinosaurs, lizards, birds and frogs.
Diablophis gilmorei, a snake from about 155 million years ago, was found in western Colorado. It was a bit larger than Eophis and probably ate similar prey.
Parviraptor estesi, found in sea cliffs near Swanage, England, was about 2 feet (60 cm) long and 144 million years old.
Caldwell said the four snakes' skull anatomy was similar to modern snakes and other fossil snakes. Caldwell said the characteristic snake skull design likely emerged before these reptiles acquired their elongated and legless body plan.
None of the four was venomous, Caldwell said. The oldest venomous snake fossils are about 20 million years old.
An artist rendering from oldest-known snake fossils shows Paleo reconstructions of three Jurassic to Lower Cretaceous snakes: Portugalophis lignites from Upper Jurassic period in a ginko tree from the coal swamp deposits at Guimarota, Portugal (top left); Diablophis gilmorei from Upper Jurassic period, hiding in a ceratosaur skull from the Morrison Formation in Fruita, Colo., (top right) and Parviraptor estesi from Upper Jurassic/Lower Cretaceous period swimming in a freshwater lake with snails and algae from the Purbeck Limestone, Swanage, England. (JULIUS CSOTONYI/Reuters/Handout)

Snakes have been kickin' it far longer than we realized | World | News | Toronto
 

Blackleaf

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There aren't any on the island of Ireland. That great British man that the Paddies love to celebrate every year - St Patrick - drove them all out.
 

Cliffy

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There aren't any on the island of Ireland. That great British man that the Paddies love to celebrate every year - St Patrick - drove them all out.
No he didn't. Brits called the druids snakes and Patty slaughtered them all and that is what the reference is about.
 

Blackleaf

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No he didn't. Brits called the druids snakes and Patty slaughtered them all and that is what the reference is about.


No, it isn't. St Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. It's there in the books. That's why, today, Ireland is one of just four places - the others being New Zealand, Iceland, Greenland and Antarctica - which has no snakes. St Patrick didn't slaughter anybody. He was a saint.

Next you'll be telling me that St George didn't kill a dragon.
 

Blackleaf

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What did you put in your coffee this morning? Oh, I mean in your tea?


What I put in my tea this morning has no effect whatsoever on the fact that St Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. He's even been credited with a miracle for it.

As for your silly theory (that it's some sort of metaphor for him driving Paganism out of Ireland, even though that's something he never did, but the Irish are right to laud his attempts to spread the good faith of Christianity on their island), it's just laughable.
 

Cliffy

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What I put in my tea this morning has no effect whatsoever on the fact that St Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. He's even been credited with a miracle for it.

As for your silly theory (that it's some sort of metaphor for him driving Paganism out of Ireland, even though that's something he never did, but the Irish are right to laud his attempts to spread the good faith of Christianity on their island), it's just laughable.
Saint Patrick, Druids, Snakes, and Popular Myths

Notes and queries: What did St Patrick banish from Ireland – snakes or Druids? More pop rhyme crimes; Why Americans invented the hamburger | Life and style | The Guardian

The serpent was the symbol of the Druids and it was they that St Patrick did his damndest to drive out of Ireland, by threatening them with death if they didn't convert to christianity.

Myths cover up scapegoating of human beings by telling the story in a more innocuous way. So, instead of saying we banish humans, we say we banished snakes.Interestingly, the last glacial period (some 10,000-100,000 years ago, depending on whom you ask) beat St. Patrick to the snake banishing. But, Christian tradition has given Patrick all the credit. So, if there weren’t snakes around during Patrick’s day, what’s with the legend?
We do know that St. Patrick was a missionary to Ireland. His goal was to convert the pagan Irish to Christianity. From all accounts, he was very successful. We know the pagans of Ireland as the Druids. Their symbol was … the snake.
Today, Christians assert that St. Patrick only banished a sacrificial Druid religion, an expulsion symbolically represented by the banishment of snakes. Pagans, on the other hand, claim that St. Patrick forced Christian conversion with the threat of violence, and actually killed many Druid priests who refused to convert.


Saint Patrick, Druids, and the Snakes: The Truth is in the Middle - Adam Ericksen | God's Politics Blog | Sojourners
 

Blackleaf

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Saint Patrick, Druids, Snakes, and Popular Myths

Notes and queries: What did St Patrick banish from Ireland – snakes or Druids? More pop rhyme crimes; Why Americans invented the hamburger | Life and style | The Guardian

The serpent was the symbol of the Druids and it was they that St Patrick did his damndest to drive out of Ireland, by threatening them with death if they didn't convert to christianity.

Myths cover up scapegoating of human beings by telling the story in a more innocuous way. So, instead of saying we banish humans, we say we banished snakes.Interestingly, the last glacial period (some 10,000-100,000 years ago, depending on whom you ask) beat St. Patrick to the snake banishing. But, Christian tradition has given Patrick all the credit. So, if there weren’t snakes around during Patrick’s day, what’s with the legend?
We do know that St. Patrick was a missionary to Ireland. His goal was to convert the pagan Irish to Christianity. From all accounts, he was very successful. We know the pagans of Ireland as the Druids. Their symbol was … the snake.
Today, Christians assert that St. Patrick only banished a sacrificial Druid religion, an expulsion symbolically represented by the banishment of snakes. Pagans, on the other hand, claim that St. Patrick forced Christian conversion with the threat of violence, and actually killed many Druid priests who refused to convert.


Saint Patrick, Druids, and the Snakes: The Truth is in the Middle - Adam Ericksen | God's Politics Blog | Sojourners


I've not read so much twaddle on this forum since yesterday. It's the usual Christianophobic nonsense.

The "fact" that St Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland is merely a metaphor for him driving Paganism out of Ireland has been debunked in recent years.

He did not physically drive the Pagans from Ireland, but instead he helped to spread Christianity around it. He did such a good job of it that he began the conversion of the entire country to the new religious beliefs, thus paving the way for the elimination of the old systems. But this process took HUNDREDS OF YEARS to complete and there's no way it could have all been done by St Patrick.

Paganism was active and well in Ireland both before and AFTER Patrick came along.

"the importance of Druids in countering [Patrick's] missionary work was inflated in later centuries under the influence of biblical parallels, and that Patrick’s visit to Tara was given a pivotal importance that it never possessed..."

"Blood & Mistletoe: A Pagan History of Britain" by scholar Ronald Hutton

"St. Patrick’s reputation as the one who Christianized Ireland is seriously over-rated and overstated, as there were others that came before him (and after him), and the process seemed to be well on its way at least a century before the “traditional” date given as his arrival, 432 CE."

Pagan author P. Sufenas Virius Lupus (he's a bit of a weirdo, like all Pagans, but he does make a good point). He goes on to add that Irish colonists in numerous areas around Cornwall and sub-Roman Britain (the Irish colonised Britain before the British colonised Ireland) had already come into Christianity and brought bits and pieces of the religion back to their homelands.

As for St Patrick (who is still lauded by the Irish Christian majority every 17th March - an official Christian feast day - for his attempts to bring the beautiful religion of Christianity to the island), he was actually credited with a miracle for driving the snakes out of Ireland.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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I've not read so much twaddle on this forum since yesterday. It's the usual Christianophobic nonsense.

The "fact" that St Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland is merely a metaphor for him driving Paganism out of Ireland has been debunked in recent years.

He did not physically drive the Pagans from Ireland, but instead he helped to spread Christianity around it. He did such a good job of it that he began the conversion of the entire country to the new religious beliefs, thus paving the way for the elimination of the old systems. But this process took HUNDREDS OF YEARS to complete and there's no way it could have all been done by St Patrick.

Paganism was active and well in Ireland both before and AFTER Patrick came along.

"the importance of Druids in countering [Patrick's] missionary work was inflated in later centuries under the influence of biblical parallels, and that Patrick’s visit to Tara was given a pivotal importance that it never possessed..."

"Blood & Mistletoe: A Pagan History of Britain" by scholar Ronald Hutton

"St. Patrick’s reputation as the one who Christianized Ireland is seriously over-rated and overstated, as there were others that came before him (and after him), and the process seemed to be well on its way at least a century before the “traditional” date given as his arrival, 432 CE."

Pagan author P. Sufenas Virius Lupus. He goes on to add that Irish colonists in numerous areas around Cornwall and sub-Roman Britain had already come into encountered Christianity elsewhere, and brought bits and pieces of the religion back to their homelands.

As for St Patrick (who is still lauded by the Irish Christian majority every 17th March - an official Christian feast day - for his attempts to bring the beautiful religion of Christianity to the island), he was actually credited with a miracle for driving the snakes out of Ireland.
Well that holds about as much water as the snakes story. How could he drive out snakes that weren't there since the ice age? That would be a miracle all right. And the beautiful religion of Christianity brought us the Inquisition, the crusades, the witch hunts and the slaughter of the druids. Hmmm, sounds a lot like Islam today.
 

Blackleaf

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Well that holds about as much water as the snakes story. How could he drive out snakes that weren't there since the ice age?

Says who? The so called "experts"? These are the numpties who once told us that the coelacanth had been extinct for about 66 million years and anyone who disagreed with them was called a raving lunatic who didn't look at the overhwlming evidence.

That would be a miracle all right. And the beautiful religion of Christianity brought us the Inquisition, the crusades, the witch hunts and the slaughter of the druids.
Christianity has given us far more good things than bad things and is a force for good against evil in this world.

As for the Crusades, they were justified, a response to Muzzie killing millions of innocent Christians and driving them out of the Holy Land.

Muslim armies had conquered Syria, Persia, Palestine, Egypt, North Africa, Spain, Sicily, Southern Italy, Cyprus, Rhodes, Sardinia, Majorca, Crete and Malta, which had been some of the most heavily Christian areas in the world. They attacked Rome and came within 100 miles of Paris before being pushed back.

Thousands, and possibly millions, of Christians died during this drive to bring the entire known world under Islam.

The Crusaders were defending Christianity from the barbarism of Islam. Even today, Christianity is still the most persecuted religion in this world, and it's Muzzie who's doing most of the persecuting.

Hmmm, sounds a lot like Islam today.
One religion has entered the 21st Century and the other is still in the 7th.