New survey reconfirms overwhelming scientific consensus on AGW

Zipperfish

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I don't believe any of that.

I don't trust system of measurements of validity of data provided. It's all been skewed or just made up to support the case.

At best, even if weren't concocted, the comparative data goes back no more than 50 years of systematic climate research. There is nothing to compare it to over a relevant period of climactic cycles.

AGW is still based ONLY on projective models, with only one independent variable.. Carbon.. this with the most complex system on Earth. These have NEVER accurately predicted anything.

As for the SOLUTION to AGW.. it is the real threat to humanity. It is driven by the radical environmentalist agenda which at its CORE sees the only solution to the 'saving the planet' as Depopulation.. preferably to perhaps 10% of its current level.. all properly limited to Environmental Pagan Purists.

Well global warming is a pretty poor choice to get the planet down to 10% of its current population. A pneumonic flu or airborne ebola would do a better job than that.

But, if you don't believe that CO2 in the atmpsohere is increasing, I can see why you wouldn't accept global warming. That's kind of the basis of the entire argument right there.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Sure we are.


Proof please.

The ice sheets that we use to get detailed information about the past climate- that's possible because we're in an ice age, technically an interglacial. Greenland and Antarctica have ice that is thousands of years old. In fact when the scientists look at that ice as well as other indicators of past climate, they can see a nice long record of cooling in the Arctic over the past 2000 years which correlates well with decreasing insolation. The correlation is destroyed by the recent greenhouse enhanced warming.


I don't believe any of that.

I don't trust system of measurements of validity of data provided. It's all been skewed or just made up to support the case.

At best, even if weren't concocted, the comparative data goes back no more than 50 years of systematic climate research. There is nothing to compare it to over a relevant period of climactic cycles.

The only way you can know what a relevant timescale is, is if you have measurements of the past climate in the first place, and we already know that you don't believe any of those measurements because those were what the first climate model sensitivities were based upon, and successfully predicted many phenomenon before other scientists would have the tools to even test the hypothesis and confirm the model predictions.

Who cares what you believe? Science doesn't work that way. Imagine if other scientists just said "I don't believe that" instead of doing actual work to try to disprove results...apparently you would be fine with a system like that.
 

darkbeaver

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The ice sheets that we use to get detailed information about the past climate- that's possible because we're in an ice age, technically an interglacial. Greenland and Antarctica have ice that is thousands of years old. In fact when the scientists look at that ice as well as other indicators of past climate, they can see a nice long record of cooling in the Arctic over the past 2000 years which correlates well with decreasing insolation. The correlation is destroyed by the recent greenhouse enhanced warming.




The only way you can know what a relevant timescale is, is if you have measurements of the past climate in the first place, and we already know that you don't believe any of those measurements because those were what the first climate model sensitivities were based upon, and successfully predicted many phenomenon before other scientists would have the tools to even test the hypothesis and confirm the model predictions.

Who cares what you believe? Science doesn't work that way. Imagine if other scientists just said "I don't believe that" instead of doing actual work to try to disprove results...apparently you would be fine with a system like that.

All they see in ice cores is a nice record of individual weather events with no indication of time in years whatever.
 

Tonington

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All they see in ice cores is a nice record of individual weather events with no indication of time in years whatever.

You mean that's all you see. Though what you see dim rodent depends a great deal on the herbs and various tonics you're imbibing at the moment. With such a plastic definition of reality I'm never really surprised by what you see or fail to see. :lol:
 

coldstream

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Oct 19, 2005
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Well global warming is a pretty poor choice to get the planet down to 10% of its current population. A pneumonic flu or airborne ebola would do a better job than that.

But, if you don't believe that CO2 in the atmpsohere is increasing, I can see why you wouldn't accept global warming. That's kind of the basis of the entire argument right there.

The Radical Environmental has a much more cunning way of reducing the population... part of it is to de-industrialize the world... and regress modern agriculture to the point that the world will not be able to support its current population.. and the AGW scam is integral to demonizing both.

And i didn't say i believe CO2 is increasingly.. i know there is no history beyond that of the last few decades.. and even if it is i don't believe the human contribution is anything but an insignificant fraction.. and i don't believe Carbon in general, a minute element in the atmosphere has any measurable effect on the climate.
 

tay

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Colpy

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if global warming is real explain why no kid graduating from high school has seen any increase in global temperature.

The journal Science, which is peer reviewed up the wazoo, has an interesting new study purporting to explain the 17-year "pause" in global warming, and, indeed, predicting how long it's likely to continue:
The "pause" in global warming may last another decade before surface temperatures start rising again, according to scientists.
Really? Why would that be? Well, the study suggests that there is a natural variability in the global climate that leads to three-decade warming periods followed by three-decade cooling periods:
The cycle naturally produces periods of roughly 30 years in which heat is stored near the surface of the Atlantic Ocean, leading to warmer temperatures, followed by roughly 30 years in which it is stored in the depths, causing cooler surface temperatures, it suggests...
"When the internal variability that is responsible for the current hiatus switches sign, as it inevitably will, another episode of accelerated global warming should ensue," the study concludes.
Prof Ka-Kit Tung of the University of Washington, one of the report's authors, said: "Historically the cool period lasted 20 to 35 years. The current period already lasted 15 years, so roughly there [are] 10 more years to go."
No disrespect to Professor Ka-Kit Tung, but I felt vaguely that I'd read about this climate cycle - natural variability, 30-year cooling periods, 30-year warming periods - somewhere before ...oh, years ago, it was. But for the life of me I couldn't recall which eminent climate scientist had advanced the proposition. And then I remembered. It was IPCC lead author, Nobel Laureate and Fellow of the Royal Society Professor Mark Steyn just over five years ago:
If you mean the argument on "global warming," my general line is this: For the last century, we've had ever-so-slight warming trends and ever-so-slight cooling trends every 30 years or so, and I don't think either are anything worth collapsing the global economy over.
Things warmed up a bit in the decades before the late Thirties. Why? I dunno. The Versailles Treaty? The Charleston?
Then from 1940 to 1970 there was a slight cooling trend. In its wake, Lowell Ponte (who I believe is an expert climatologist and, therefore, should have been heeded) wrote his bestseller, The Cooling: Has the new ice age already begun? Can we survive?
From 1970 to 1998 there was a slight warming trend, and now there's a slight cooling trend again. And I'm not fussed about it either way.
Now I don't consider myself a big credentialed expert or anything. I simply looked at a graph Michael E Mann hadn't been anywhere near and drew the obvious conclusion. Gave it two minutes' thought, if that. The reason it's taking climate science so much longer to draw that obvious conclusion is because ideology and the ideological enforcers like Mann got in the way.
Consider, for example, the context in which I made my 30-year-hot-30-year-cool observation half-a-decade back. I'd written a column in which I remarked en passant:
I don't know how [New York Times climate alarmist Thomas] Friedman defines "young" but let's be generous: If you're 29, there has been no global warming for your entire adult life. If you're graduating high school, there has been no global warming since you entered first grade. There has been no global warming this century. None. Admittedly the 21st century is only one century out of the many centuries of planetary existence, but it happens to be the one you're stuck living in.
The great George Will chanced to read that and quoted it in his own column. At which point Big Climate went bananas. They recognized it as a catchy line and they didn't want it catching on. Their general line was the same as Michael Mann's in DC Superior Court - an appeal to authority. Why, Steyn is an obvious know-nothing unqualified to offer an opinion:
In order further to induce skepticism about global warming, George Will now invokes the words of Mark Steyn, a man with no apparent education or expertise on climate science.
Oh, well, we can't have that, can we? Ezra Klein in The Washington Post:
I've gotten a bunch of requests for a response to George Will's assertion that "If you're 29, there has been no global warming for your entire adult life." I'm actually puzzled enough by that comment to not really know how to respond... George Will appears to have gotten this devastating rejoinder from Mark Steyn. Steyn is not, as you might imagine, a climate scientist. He's a polemicist best known for writing a celebrity obituary column in The Atlantic... I'm not sure I'd use him for a source on global warming.
The lads at Think Progress deplored Will's editors even publishing such dangerous deceptions:
If George Will quotes a lie, it's still a lie.
And then there were George Soros' shrill castrati at Media Matters:
George Will repeated Mark Steyn's false claim that "If you're 29, there has been no global warming for your entire adult life." In fact, climate experts reject the notion that global warming has slowed or stopped.
Actually, no. In public,"climate experts" rejected the notion. But in private - in fact - they well knew that "global warming has slowed or stopped". They just weren't prepared to say so to the gullible rubes at Media Matters, Think Progress and The Washington Post. A few months after my column appeared, Climategate broke, and among the leaked emails was this one from Dr Mann's bestest buddy, Phil Jones, head of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit. July 5th 2005:
The scientific community would come down on me in no uncertain terms if I said the world had cooled from 1998. Okay it has but it is only seven years of data and it isn't statistically significant.
Oh, okay then. So the only chaps lying were Jones and his fellow members of the climate alarmism industry. In private, they agreed with me. But they weren't willing to let Ezra Klein know that. So, at the time I was breezily talking of 30-year cool/warm cycles of natural climate variability, the Big Climate enforcers were denying that any such cooling cycle was taking place. And their worshipful saps among the media and climate activists enthusiastically jumped in the back alley anyone foolish enough to advance such a notion - like George Will - and clubbed him to a pulp with their hockey sticks. Only recently have they ceased "rejecting the notion" that "global warming has slowed or stopped". And only even more recently have they begun making any effort to explain what they call, as it prepares to enter its third decade, "the pause" - heat being retained by the ocean, etc.
This is the tragedy of "climate science". Imagine if it hadn't fallen into the hands of a cabal of insecure, neurotic, ideological enforcers like Michael E Mann. Imagine if, instead of serving as eunuch cheerleaders, the guys at Think Progress had said, "Yeah, this Steyn guy's an assh*le, but these climate models don't seem to be panning out. Maybe we should look into it..." As it is, it took the "denialists" and skeptics and lukewarmers to open up the conversation in the face of a closed-minded "hockey team" and media fan club that did everything it could to shut it down. Five years on, the climate mullahs are belatedly changing their tune. Me, I'm still using my old high-school line, and if anything the passing years have made it even catchier:
Guest-hosting for Rush a few days ago, I said if your kid is graduating from high school this week there has been no global warming his entire life. And immediately the usual drama queens emailed that I was a know-nothing denialist. But, just to nail it down, there has been no global warming for 17 years and nine months. That's since September 1996. The High School Class of 2014 has been blessed to have lived its entire life in a warming-free world.
I conclude that 2009 30-year-cycle post by asking this:
In the mid-nineties, which climatologist and which model predicted the cooling trend of the turn of the century and the oughts? And, if they didn't, on what basis do you trust their claims for 2050 or 2100?
I'm currently thinking about courtroom strategy for the upcoming trial of the century. If I were just playing it for laughs, I'd pick climate-science assertions by Mann and me from the last 15 years and invite his witnesses to discuss which ones are closer to where the science is today. But the reality is you don't really need to "predict" terribly much - not if you believe, as I did then and as I do now, in natural climate variablity. Judging from that Science study and other recent papers, natural variability is back in - which means Mann is increasingly out. Because his main contribution to the debate was abolishing the very concept of natural variability:
Mann's "hockey stick" shows that there was no such thing as "global warming" until the Industrial Revolution took off bigtime. So, in Mann's science, 100 per cent of "global warming" is anthropogenic. In that case, where did it all go in the 21st century? See Tony Allwright's graph above: China and India industrialized in double-quick time, and it made no difference. One obvious explanation is that there is a non-anthropogenic element in play, something called "natural climate variability".
But Mann and the other Warmanos can't admit to that. Because the important and influential part of Mann's hockey stick is not the blade (as Steve McIntyre says, very few people dispute that it's warmer now than 200 years ago) but the shaft. In abolishing the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age, Dr Mann wound up abolishing the very concept of "natural climate variability". To the point where all his rube celebrity pals believe there was a millennium-long stable climate until industrial, consumerist humans came along and broiled the planet.
They believe that because that's what the hockey stick told them.
~Speaking of Steve McIntyre, he has resumed his series on the multiple misrepresentations of Dr Mann's so-called "exonerations" by official bodies. Along the way, he noticed this Tweet by one of the few scientists still willing to be associated with Mann, Gavin Schmidt, explaining why Doctor Fraudpants had no choice but to sue:
Saying that ppl are frauds is per se defamatory. Goes beyond disagreement/error/dislike
That's Mann's position. To a scientist an accusation of fraud - even from an unschooled disc-jockey dropout who quit school at nine (such as myself) - is professionally damaging. But, as Steve McIntyre points out, the EPA report Mann trumpets as one of his multiple "exonerations" addresses this very point. Mann had accused McIntyre and his colleague Ross McKitrick of "pure scientific fraud", which by Schmidt's lights is "per se defamatory". Aw, lighten up, says the EPA:
Mann's statements reflect his scientific judgment that the McIntyre and McKitrick (2005) paper was flawed. As discussed thoroughly in our previous responses (e.g., 3-23), it is entirely acceptable and appropriate for scientists to express their opinions and challenge papers that they believe are scientifically flawed.
So it's "entirely acceptable and appropriate" to dismiss something as "fraud" if you believe it's "scientifically flawed". Hey, that's great to know. Thanks a lot, EPA! Can't wait to see you on the witness stand.

Settled Science Catches Up with Steyn :: SteynOnline


The author of this cartoon is an ignoramus.

In the 15th century, everyone with any education whatsoever knew the world was round, as it was proven by the Greeks 1700 years before.

In the 17th century, science already accepted that things fell to earth, it was simply the attraction of bodies they did not quite have a handle upon......

In the 19th century the debate on the extent of the evolutionary process began, and it continues today.

In the 21st century.....THERE HAS BEEN NO GLOBAL WARMING.

None.
 

Zipperfish

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There has been no significant increase in the global average temperature in nigh on 20 years now. But It hasn't dropped either. And California is in the middle of an historic drought. And mysterious craters are appearing in Siberia. And most glaciers are retreating, some very quickly by geological standards. And the arctic sea ice is diminishing--slow by human standards, but quite quickly by geological ones. Ice sheets in the Antarctic are disintegrating. Sea levels have increased. The permafrost in the arctic is thawing.

I'm involved a lot in the mining business. Mining engineers are not the most Greenpeace-y guys on the planet. But when they are planning a mine in a glaciated areas, you bet they are taking into account global warming in their calculations. They have to. If they underestimate the water input to the mine area, they could lose their tailings or screw up their treatment plants.

I don't know why temperatures have not increased dspite the rise in CO2 concentrations--I have my suspicions but it's speculation on my part--but even if the stay as they are now, it's like being in a sustained heat wave.
 

Tonington

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Warning, for the graphically challenged, graphs ahead.

Here's what natural variability with no trend looks like:


Ocean cycles, are natural internal variability in our climate system. They sum to zero. Here's another one, El Nino:


Here is what natural variability plus a positive trend looks like:


Which one does the surface temperature resemble:


Which squares with what the satellites in space measure. More energy is coming in than is going out. The heat is going some place. We have natural variability, and we have a long-term trend from an enhanced greenhouse effect. It's a fact. Don't like it, prove the satellites wrong.The heat? To the oceans...where more than 90% of the sun's energy ends up:



Folks like Colpy may think the theory says it should look like this:


But it really shouldn't. The scientists are well aware of natural variability. But then again, Colpy doesn't even think medical evaluations should use controls, positive control, negative control, we don't need no stinking control!

:lol:
 

Ludlow

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What concerns me more than anything is the flatulence of over seven billion people. There has got to be an adverse effect on the environment from this. Especially in places where Mexican food is popular.
 

Colpy

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Warning, for the graphically challenged, graphs ahead.

Here's what natural variability with no trend looks like:


Ocean cycles, are natural internal variability in our climate system. They sum to zero. Here's another one, El Nino:


Here is what natural variability plus a positive trend looks like:


Which one does the surface temperature resemble:


Which squares with what the satellites in space measure. More energy is coming in than is going out. The heat is going some place. We have natural variability, and we have a long-term trend from an enhanced greenhouse effect. It's a fact. Don't like it, prove the satellites wrong.The heat? To the oceans...where more than 90% of the sun's energy ends up:



Folks like Colpy may think the theory says it should look like this:


But it really shouldn't. The scientists are well aware of natural variability. But then again, Colpy doesn't even think medical evaluations should use controls, positive control, negative control, we don't need no stinking control!

:lol:


All lovely, but STILL fails to explain NO global warming in the 21st century.

As for "But then again, Colpy doesn't even think medical evaluations should use controls, positive control, negative control, we don't need no stinking control!" I plead guilty to thinking a suicide rate 20 times the norm indicates a population with some mental problems. I guess I don't have the academic credentials to arrive at that conclusion. Apologies to those who have no idea what I'm talking about here.
 

Walter

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There has been no significant increase in the global average temperature in nigh on 20 years now. But It hasn't dropped either. And California is in the middle of an historic drought. And mysterious craters are appearing in Siberia. And most glaciers are retreating, some very quickly by geological standards. And the arctic sea ice is diminishing--slow by human standards, but quite quickly by geological ones. Ice sheets in the Antarctic are disintegrating. Sea levels have increased. The permafrost in the arctic is thawing.

I'm involved a lot in the mining business. Mining engineers are not the most Greenpeace-y guys on the planet. But when they are planning a mine in a glaciated areas, you bet they are taking into account global warming in their calculations. They have to. If they underestimate the water input to the mine area, they could lose their tailings or screw up their treatment plants.

I don't know why temperatures have not increased dspite the rise in CO2 concentrations--I have my suspicions but it's speculation on my part--but even if the stay as they are now, it's like being in a sustained heat wave.
What crap. We've had the coolest summers in decades here in ON.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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"A survey among more than 1800 climate scientists confirms that there is widespread agreement that global warming is predominantly caused by human greenhouse gases."

And this is supposed to mean anything in any scientific & factual manner?

There's been a "Survey" that has an unusual 90%.......

(exactly 90% - Not 83% or 91% - a Toothpaste Commercial 9 out of 10 Dentists Approve %)

.......of respondents who "Agreed" that Global Warming is "Probably" "Mostly" Man Made.

So Surveys now replace Scientific Theory & Available Factual Information?

I suppose Science Fiction will be the new Science in the near future too...... after all, Science Fiction brought us a lot of today's technology. :p
 
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Locutus

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Jun 18, 2007
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The climate and gas content of the atmosphere over 600Kilo years.



The Flintstones did it.


Hey now, nobody is interested in your little long term paleo record there pal. All the hipsters need to know is that e.g., the Weather Network wig-guy says that August 28th was the hottest damn day since, like, 1994 and then runs the Forces of Nature footage of earthquakes and forest fires from around the scary globe.