Religious accommodation or ‘accessory to sexism’? York student’s case stirs debate

karrie

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He didn't ask as much as he dictated that his religious beliefs forbade his participation... AGAIN, the contract between student and school is clear and this element of the course was published in advance of his agreeing to enter into that contract.

Quite frankly, use of the word 'accommodation' is a real stretch, bordering on abusing the system... You'll notice that he didn't 'request' to be in an all male group now, did he?

There is another issue at hand here identified (indirectly) by the professor and that is the other students (who also paid their money) are being denied their full value due to the refusal of this moron's participation (for what it would be worth).


Requesting an all male group be formed, would be asking sexist practices be put into place by the university/college, to accommodate his religious beliefs. Are you implying that's something they *should* have done? That would be him requesting that they treat other people differently for his sake.


As for the other students, when you take an online course, you are never guaranteed fellow students. You aren't guaranteed the participation of any other students either.
 
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Goober

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Requesting an all male group be formed, would be asking sexist practices be put into place by the university/college, to accommodate his religious beliefs. Are you implying that's something the *should* have done? That would be him requesting that they treat other people differently for is sake.


As for the other students, when you take an online course, you are never guaranteed fellow students. You aren't guaranteed the participation of any other students either.

To me it appears the University was split on this. The HR Board and Dean going one way- The dept going what I consider the right way.
And from that I would assume it consumed much time and effort on everyone's part.
 

karrie

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I wonder what this moron does when he has a female instructor?



I suspect that's likely reason he was going the route of online courses.


Also, for people who have religious rules about socializing with the opposite sex, that doesn't necessarily include large classes where you go, learn, leave, minus socializing. It's the small group in a coffee shop that's 'problematic'.
 

Cannuck

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I suspect that's likely reason he was going the route of online courses.


Also, for people who have religious rules about socializing with the opposite sex, that doesn't necessarily include large classes where you go, learn, leave, minus socializing. It's the small group in a coffee shop that's 'problematic'.

Hutterites don't eat together but they shop together
 

Goober

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Hutterites don't eat together but they shop together

Do they work together?

More comes out - the original policy is still in place- and as of today is still Official policy at York.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...es-broke-obligation-to-accommodate-officials/

Nevertheless, the rejection incensed university brass. According to Mr. Grayson, on October 18, he received a letter from the Dean of the Faculty of Liberal Arts and Professional Studies ordering him to accommodate the student’s wishes.

As per documents provided by the professor, one of the keystones of the Dean’s position is the assertion that allowing the student to opt out of female interaction would not affect the “experience of other students in the class”—provided the professor kept quiet about it.

In an October 18 email, the Dean specifically told Mr. Grayson that if he was worried about the “course experience of our female students” he would make sure they “are not made aware of the accommodation.”

The Dean dismissed the November survey, saying he was not “persuaded that other students’ political views on the subject are either a relevant or an appropriate consideration.”

“I am unpersuaded that it is even arguable that the non-participation of this one male student in group work affects in any way any other student’s human rights,” he wrote.

As York’s winter semester kicks off, said Mr. Grayson, the order is still standing.

“There’s been no reversal of position,” he said.
 
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captain morgan

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Requesting an all male group be formed, would be asking sexist practices be put into place by the university/college, to accommodate his religious beliefs.

Buddy never made the request. I was not suggesting that the college offer it as a solution, although in the spirit of 'accommodation' it falls into the same logic as this individual's requirement to have no contact with women.


Are you implying that's something they *should* have done? That would be him requesting that they treat other people differently for his sake.

Getting back to the contractual agreement that exists between the parties; in complying with his demand for segregation, they would have been treating people differently for his sake

As for the other students, when you take an online course, you are never guaranteed fellow students. You aren't guaranteed the participation of any other students either.

The information would have been published in the course outline, especially if it was a requirement... This was not a secret that he was required to have personal contact on one occasion with other students.

No amount of what-ifs will change these facts
 

gerryh

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Buddy never made the request. I was not suggesting that the college offer it as a solution, although in the spirit of 'accommodation' it falls into the same logic as this individual's requirement to have no contact with women.




Getting back to the contractual agreement that exists between the parties; in complying with his demand for segregation, they would have been treating people differently for his sake



The information would have been published in the course outline, especially if it was a requirement... This was not a secret that he was required to have personal contact on one occasion with other students.

No amount of what-ifs will change these facts


This is all moot, as I have already pointed out, he complied with his professors decision AND participated. He also stated he was happy with what was done and the outcome.
 

captain morgan

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This is all moot, as I have already pointed out, he complied with his professors decision AND participated. He also stated he was happy with what was done and the outcome.

As I mentioned earlier, this issue never should have made it to the point that it did.

In my opinion, it speaks volumes relative to the individualistic nature of society and I think that it is a destructive influence
 

gerryh

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As I mentioned earlier, this issue never should have made it to the point that it did.

In my opinion, it speaks volumes relative to the individualistic nature of society and I think that it is a destructive influence


The only reason it went as far as it did was because the PROFESSOR decided to move it up to the next level trying to cover his a$$, figuring that he would be supported. The kid didn't move it beyond his Prof, and as it turns out, chose to accept the Profs ruling. A tempest in a teapot.
 

Colpy

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"Welcome to western civilization; now deal with it." should have been the prof's initial reply.
But that would have gotten him in deep trouble.
 

captain morgan

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The only reason it went as far as it did was because the PROFESSOR decided to move it up to the next level trying to cover his a$$, figuring that he would be supported. The kid didn't move it beyond his Prof, and as it turns out, chose to accept the Profs ruling. A tempest in a teapot.


The professor was obliged to move it up the chain. The moment that someone declares that their human rights are being compromised, the system is forced to take over.

Had the professor unilaterally made his decision without going through the established channels, he would be risking his position (potentially).

In many ways, this issue is not that different from the HRSDC debacle that we observed for so long wherein all it took was an allegation of racism to act as a weapon that resulted in many unsubstantiated penalties being levied against people.
 

captain morgan

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Well, somehow this event traveled from the man's request to the professor right up to the Dean's office. The article doesn't specify who engaged the higher-ups, but if it was a decision that was at the discretion of the Professor, then I am guessing that it would have ended with his decision.

Regardless of that speculation, the fact remains that the student was fully aware of the requirement to meet fellow students prior to his signing up for the class and paying his fees. Crying about any personal infringements after the fact is BS
 

gerryh

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Well, somehow this event traveled from the man's request to the professor right up to the Dean's office. The article doesn't specify who engaged the higher-ups, but if it was a decision that was at the discretion of the Professor, then I am guessing that it would have ended with his decision.

Regardless of that speculation, the fact remains that the student was fully aware of the requirement to meet fellow students prior to his signing up for the class and paying his fees. Crying about any personal infringements after the fact is BS


My God, did you not read the article?

Dr. Grayson sent the request to Dr. Singer and the director of the university’s Centre for Human Rights, Noël Badiou, seeking support.

It was the Prof that moved it up the line.
 

captain morgan

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What did he say about personal infringements?

Oh, that's right, he said he'd respect the school's decision, and he attended the group session. Weird way of crying.


So, I guess that the students religious convictions really weren't that strict after all, but it can't hurt to try and bend the system all the same.

So much for the strength of his 'religious' argument

My God, did you not read the article?

Yes

It was the Prof that moved it up the line.


That makes sense, but the article does not specify how it ended up on the Dean's desk.

"J. Paul Grayson, a sociology professor at York University, received the request in September and denied it, arguing it would give tacit support to a negative view of women. But the dean of the faculty of arts disagreed and has ordered him to grant the accommodation."
 

gerryh

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That makes sense, but the article does not specify how it ended up on the Dean's desk.

"J. Paul Grayson, a sociology professor at York University, received the request in September and denied it, arguing it would give tacit support to a negative view of women. But the dean of the faculty of arts disagreed and has ordered him to grant the accommodation."

also from the article in the OP

Dr. Grayson sent the request to Dr. Singer and the director of the university’s Centre for Human Rights, Noël Badiou, seeking support.
 

karrie

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So, I guess that the students religious convictions really weren't that strict after all, but it can't hurt to try and bend the system all the same.

So much for the strength of his 'religious' argument

He never made an argument, he made a request. It was rejected, he moved on. The story surrounding it is a bunch of sensationalist crap.