They had their chance.
Another example of BS used to demonize Israel.
No he didn't.
I like Morris, I've read most of his work. But he's out to lunch in some areas. Like the silly claim above.
I actually agree, to an extent.
Israel - The Right to exist as a State?
- Thread starter Goober
- Start date
Colpy is correct. Israel has threatened to attack Iran, but they won't admit to possessing nukes, because then they would be fair game for sanctions..
Israel threat to attack Iran is not a bluff, deputy FM says
Danny Ayalon tells Sky News that Iran conduct regarding international efforts is bid to 'buy time and procrastinate.
Nov.06, 2009
Israel threat to attack Iran is not a bluff, deputy FM says - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper
Danny Ayalon tells Sky News that Iran conduct regarding international efforts is bid to 'buy time and procrastinate.
Nov.06, 2009
Israel threat to attack Iran is not a bluff, deputy FM says - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper
I just want to say that for a thread titled "Israel's right to exist" you have yet to give any argument to support your claim.
As for your question, actually no, not substantial at all, the Zionist myth that the Arabs left because of Arab leaders' orders has been thoroughly debunked for a long time now, though it still makes its appearance every once in a while, there you go;
Khalid, Why Did The Palestinians Leave?
The number of people who left because of such orders is estimated to be around 5% (by Benny Morris though even he places more emphasis on these orders than what they actually deserve) as for the official claim by Israeli leaders in the late forties and early fifties about orders to leave through radio, no evidence to that effect has been found, to quote the above paper;
"A day-to-day examination of the broadcasts from the Arab capitals and by
secret Arab radio stations in 1948 fails to reveal a single reference, direct or
indirect, to an order given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave. But, you will say,
this is not enough. What is the positive evidence of these broadcasts?"
There are however orders to stay.
Not really, I don't. Its suicidal, after what Israel has done and the colossal failure that is creating it in a heavily populated area at the heart of the Arab and Islamic world, a world which blames imperialism so readily when an elephant farts (this should become an idiom, no?), I really think its past the stage where people could coexist peacefully (if there ever was such a stage in the first place), Israel has to continue fighting for its (illegitimate) existence and will continue to fight for it until it gets destroyed, there is a saying in Israel which translates into "Israel is not a state that has a military but a military that has a state", this state of affairs was recognized by the American president when he signed Israel's declaration of independence (and interestingly enough he decided to cross out the word Jewish from the document when he signed it) his advisers also predicted that such a state in the future will become dependent militarily on foreign nations for its survival, this military existence was also recognized by early Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion. I really don't believe Arabs would ever give up their right of return (I mean the Jews held on to it for thousands of years didn't they? ;D) and if it were to happen today or in the near future it would substantially decrease the quality of life for Jewish Israelis , so why would they?
Theres an intresting video I watched very recently about this exact subject, the guy is running a project entitled Ask a Palestinian/Ask an Israeli; its very interesting so far, you should subscribe if you're at all interested in the conflict.
if the Jewish people dreamed of return for 2000 years, why would Palestinians stop dreaming?
And what would that extent be?
I just want to say that for a thread titled "Israel's right to exist" you have yet to give any argument to support your claim.
As for your question, actually no, not substantial at all, the Zionist myth that the Arabs left because of Arab leaders' orders has been thoroughly debunked for a long time now, though it still makes its appearance every once in a while, there you go;
Khalid, Why Did The Palestinians Leave?
The number of people who left because of such orders is estimated to be around 5% (by Benny Morris though even he places more emphasis on these orders than what they actually deserve) as for the official claim by Israeli leaders in the late forties and early fifties about orders to leave through radio, no evidence to that effect has been found, to quote the above paper;
"A day-to-day examination of the broadcasts from the Arab capitals and by
secret Arab radio stations in 1948 fails to reveal a single reference, direct or
indirect, to an order given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave. But, you will say,
this is not enough. What is the positive evidence of these broadcasts?"
There are however orders to stay.
Not really, I don't. Its suicidal, after what Israel has done and the colossal failure that is creating it in a heavily populated area at the heart of the Arab and Islamic world, a world which blames imperialism so readily when an elephant farts (this should become an idiom, no?), I really think its past the stage where people could coexist peacefully (if there ever was such a stage in the first place), Israel has to continue fighting for its (illegitimate) existence and will continue to fight for it until it gets destroyed, there is a saying in Israel which translates into "Israel is not a state that has a military but a military that has a state", this state of affairs was recognized by the American president when he signed Israel's declaration of independence (and interestingly enough he decided to cross out the word Jewish from the document when he signed it) his advisers also predicted that such a state in the future will become dependent militarily on foreign nations for its survival, this military existence was also recognized by early Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion. I really don't believe Arabs would ever give up their right of return (I mean the Jews held on to it for thousands of years didn't they? ;D) and if it were to happen today or in the near future it would substantially decrease the quality of life for Jewish Israelis , so why would they?
Theres an intresting video I watched very recently about this exact subject, the guy is running a project entitled Ask a Palestinian/Ask an Israeli; its very interesting so far, you should subscribe if you're at all interested in the conflict.
if the Jewish people dreamed of return for 2000 years, why would Palestinians stop dreaming?
Only for those who physically left.
A subjective conclusion, based on subjective material, formulated from a conclusion, backwards, written by the foremost new historian, who has conceded to not combing through the archives he claims to have used to revise the history of the Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.
Interesting.
But to believe that in the 40's all radio stations recorded all 24 hours of every day's broadcast, or military broadcasts on civilian bands didn't happen, is a leap of faith in the absurd.
Last edited:
The UN- A number of countries have been born from War- South Sudan- Eritrea- Kosovo - That was self evident
Ah Benny Morris- He is shall we say a good fraud. The numbers will always be in dispute.
As to Israel's right to exist- It is self evident- It does and will. What is your solution - They all move?
To say the least.
Here's an article I really enjoyed.
It's a shame really. Benny is such a passion and intelligent man. Why he succumbed to acting so stupid, and destroyed his credibility, is beyond me.
I see EAO has finally made up his mind, and thinks Israel has a right to exist now.
What is your opinion then of the Israeli Law of Return? and Israels so called "natural right" to exist as a Jewish state which is derived from it as far as Israelis are concerned.
I don't particularly care for Benny, I only mentioned his number because honestly its the only estimate I've seen and it seems right. So far I've only met one guy who's family were told to "take a vacation" in Syria till the war is over, of course they left to escape the fighting and certainly not for a vacation but that's the only case where I've heard the whole they were 'ordered to leave' from a Palestinian or from someone of Palestinian origin and to say I've met a lot of them is an understatement ;D. Though I'd be extremely interested in your conclusion and your sources for it, obviously you have a strong hopefully educated one?
What is even more stupendously absurd is to believe for all its supposed might especially when it comes to espionage and with a claim as big as this one for an issue that is still considered among the most important in the conflict, it as well as other foreign intelligence services failed to produce a single incidence of such communication. And the evidence we have points to the contrary, there are records showing they were ordered on radio to stay and for those who escaped to return.
I don't have one.
For what? How Benny's a fraud, or for the fact that Palestinians were told to flee?
Ok, I sympathize with all the people enduring war etc, but why should Israel be the end all of sympathy and solidarity?
I agree they should have a stable homeland but they cannot have that while displacing people and adjusting borders as they see fit.
The fact that you compared this situation to WW2 makes you a fool, there is nothing alike it going on there other then empty talk as most Arab nations know they will lose bad if faced with Israel's full might.
If Iran is deemed to be building nukes, I'm all for taking the capability out. But with you weak rhetoric, you really come off as a buffoon.
Keep up your talking points though, Fox news might have a use for you.
That is amazing, unbelievable actually, if you've read most of Benny Morris's work and that as you should know is a lot of material, it must have required from you a lot of dedication and interest in the conflict, you can't not have formed an opinion. Also considering you claim Benny a fraud I wonder why you also claim to "Like him" and bothered reading "most of his work"? I consider myself very dedicated to the history of the conflict and still even for me getting through books like Birth and Victims was extremely tedious and boring.
I thought it was clear it was for the latter but since you bring it up am interested in both, the former only because you called him "intelligent" and 'passion' who succumbed to stupidity and lost his credibility so I assume this was a recent turn of events, when did he lose his credibility?
Israel could not have been formed in Palestine as a Jewish state without kicking the natives out its as simple as that.
I have an interest in both sides of the debate.
I have a penchant for intelligent and passionate people. Hence the observation I made, and mentioned to Goob's, re: Benny.
I was laid up for an extended period of time due to health issues. Hell, I even read some of Alex Jones' works.
And I still don't have an opinion on the Law of Return, mostly because I don't really care.
I'm not sure why you find that unbelievable, not everyone takes an interest, or expends energy, for the same reason, or for any reason at all.
He lost all credibility when he admitted he wrote "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", supposedly based on the documents uncovered in the IDFA.
He was later forced to concede that though he didn't have access at the time, much of what he did see later, supported his conclusions. Thus my observation that his conclusions, were forgone and my original observation re: his opinion of the exodus.
As for whether or not the Palestinians were told to flee by Arab leaders, by whatever medium. There's a litany of quotes from Arab leaders and daily's, antiquated and contemporary, confirming they were told to leave, and the Arab armies would ensure their return in short order. Once the Jews were expunged from the region.
An excellent example being...
Producing the narrative is not required, when the culprits admit the act.
Actually, given the fact that the Arabs that didn't leave, became citizens of Israel, in peace. Your theory develops a fairly decent hole.
Last edited: