Collateral Murder

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
My whole problem with the van is: Who, in their right mind in a war zone, doesn't know enough to display a flag of truce? Any white cloth will do. That machine guns are going to err on the side of caution and blast any potential threat away is a given ... and by this time, the folks on the ground certainly knew bullets were floating in from somewhere.

I'd be curious if the white flag is a known cultural symbol in that region. Maybe, but I don't know.

Perhaps the Americans could educate them through newspapers, etc. explaining to the general population how they operate, how they interpret events, and what kind of events precisely will trigger an attack, and how the locals can react to prevent attacks on them. Again, we should not just impose our own cultural interpretations since they may be foreign to them.

In that video, if they were just cameramen and their bodyguards, where they aware of these dangers? Again, I don't know the answer, but has the US military made any efforts through the Iraqi media to educate the population or did it just assume that the population is familiar with Western cultural norms of behaviour?

Again, I don't know if they are familiar with the Western meaning of the white flag. But has anyone in the US military ensured that to be the case and not assumed?

One possible solution I could see would be teaching the population certain norms which the US military would follow too as a form of protocol. For example, if a helicopter sees something, first they ensure they're seeing the right thing before engaging. And then they engage by firing one shot into the ground and the gunmen immediately respond by dropping their weapons or making some other sign that is acceptable to the helicopter. Again, this could be taught through the media and other means.

Also, have they been taught whether they are allowed to carry arms, what kind of arms, and whether they must register their arms, report to any government agency if they will be carrying arms on a certain day, etc.?

I don't know what the rules were under Saddam Hussain. But if the rules now are significantly different from then, that means the population is trying to learn new norms, new cultural codes of behaviour in their interactions with the US military.

Maybe the guys in the video were terrorists, and did not respond as appropriate and as had been taught to the general population. But why did the helicopter aim so lethally from the start rather than test the waters first by firing a warning shot?

I'm not saying I know the answers here, but would certainly be interested in what efforts the US has made in educating themselves and the general population so as to develop certain common cultural norms understandable to both that all sides could follow as a means of reducing deaths. Among the protocols to be taught could include:

1. A US solder does not engage until certain that the person is armed.

2. If it is confirmed that the person is armed, he must follow the appropriate protocol to confirm whether they are enemies or at least a threat. this could include a warning shot or some other protocol that the Iraqis would know too as per the media.

3. If receiving a warning shot, a person is to know the appropriate response, surrender, drop weapon, hands up, white flag if available, or if physically incapable owing to weakness, illness, etc. then alternatives such as laying on the ground with hands and legs spread, etc. etc. etc.

4. Clearly taught rules concerning the right to bear arms, citizens' rights in this respect, if armed, whether to inform any particular agency, etc.

Has anything of the sort been carried out, or had the US military simply assumed that a population living in relative peace would just automatically know without any proper education how to operate within a warring society. I'd imagine there would be much culture shock and misunderstandings.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
I'd be curious if the white flag is a known cultural symbol in that region. Maybe, but I don't know.

Perhaps the Americans could educate them through newspapers, etc. explaining to the general population how they operate, how they interpret events, and what kind of events precisely will trigger an attack, and how the locals can react to prevent attacks on them. Again, we should not just impose our own cultural interpretations since they may be foreign to them.

In that video, if they were just cameramen and their bodyguards, where they aware of these dangers? Again, I don't know the answer, but has the US military made any efforts through the Iraqi media to educate the population or did it just assume that the population is familiar with Western cultural norms of behaviour?

Again, I don't know if they are familiar with the Western meaning of the white flag. But has anyone in the US military ensured that to be the case and not assumed?

One possible solution I could see would be teaching the population certain norms which the US military would follow too as a form of protocol. For example, if a helicopter sees something, first they ensure they're seeing the right thing before engaging. And then they engage by firing one shot into the ground and the gunmen immediately respond by dropping their weapons or making some other sign that is acceptable to the helicopter. Again, this could be taught through the media and other means.

Also, have they been taught whether they are allowed to carry arms, what kind of arms, and whether they must register their arms, report to any government agency if they will be carrying arms on a certain day, etc.?

I don't know what the rules were under Saddam Hussain. But if the rules now are significantly different from then, that means the population is trying to learn new norms, new cultural codes of behaviour in their interactions with the US military.

Maybe the guys in the video were terrorists, and did not respond as appropriate and as had been taught to the general population. But why did the helicopter aim so lethally from the start rather than test the waters first by firing a warning shot?

I'm not saying I know the answers here, but would certainly be interested in what efforts the US has made in educating themselves and the general population so as to develop certain common cultural norms understandable to both that all sides could follow as a means of reducing deaths. Among the protocols to be taught could include:

1. A US solder does not engage until certain that the person is armed.

2. If it is confirmed that the person is armed, he must follow the appropriate protocol to confirm whether they are enemies or at least a threat. this could include a warning shot or some other protocol that the Iraqis would know too as per the media.

3. If receiving a warning shot, a person is to know the appropriate response, surrender, drop weapon, hands up, white flag if available, or if physically incapable owing to weakness, illness, etc. then alternatives such as laying on the ground with hands and legs spread, etc. etc. etc.

4. Clearly taught rules concerning the right to bear arms, citizens' rights in this respect, if armed, whether to inform any particular agency, etc.

Has anything of the sort been carried out, or had the US military simply assumed that a population living in relative peace would just automatically know without any proper education how to operate within a warring society. I'd imagine there would be much culture shock and misunderstandings.
1. A US solder does not engage until certain that the person is armed.
That is the rule, we have some soldiers being tried for violating that rule.

2. If it is confirmed that the person is armed, he must follow the appropriate protocol to confirm whether they are enemies or at least a threat. this could include a warning shot or some other protocol that the Iraqis would know too as per the media.
If a person is armed, he is taken out unless he is known to be a friendly. We don't go up and ask them. There are no warning shots, if we have to use a weapon it is to put someone down.

3. If receiving a warning shot, a person is to know the appropriate response, surrender, drop weapon, hands up, white flag if available, or if physically incapable owing to weakness, illness, etc. then alternatives such as laying on the ground with hands and legs spread, etc. etc. etc.

Will not happen unless instigated by them, we do not knowingly expose ourselves to danger.

4. Clearly taught rules concerning the right to bear arms, citizens' rights in this respect, if armed, whether to inform any particular agency, etc.

By in large there is no civil authority except what we acknowledge, and most of those on our side wear uniforms.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I would be curious though if there is any education campaign to reduce the risks of innocent Iraqis being killed over simple misunderstandings.

And as for a warning shot, I honestly don't see how that would necessarily expose a US helicopter to danger under the conditions presented in that particular video whereby they could have dropped their weapons until the ground troops arrived. And if they don't drop their weapons, then shoot to kill. It would only take a second.
 

CUBert

Time Out
Aug 15, 2010
1,259
2
38
Canada
that was some great footage.

Too bad the reporters got too chummy with the insurgents but if your gonna lie with dogs you're bound to catch some fleas. Or in this case 30mm rounds from an apache.

yeah great dood kill innocent civilians and children, america **** yeah!!!!!!!!!
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
yeah great dood kill innocent civilians and children, america **** yeah!!!!!!!!!

It's a war.

Shy'te happens.

You think innocents didn't die in any of the wars that made us free?????

And Iraq is stabilizing, settling down, Iraq is the spearhead of the liberation movement in the Arabian Peninsula.

Freedom costs.
 

CUBert

Time Out
Aug 15, 2010
1,259
2
38
Canada
It's a war.

Shy'te happens.

You think innocents didn't die in any of the wars that made us free?????

And Iraq is stabilizing, settling down, Iraq is the spearhead of the liberation movement in the Arabian Peninsula.

Freedom costs.

you think because it's a war, targeting innocent civilians then is allowable? when has that ever been allowed? i'm sure that they outlaw that in the geneva convention.

then again, you support israel and america's illegal raid of osama's compound so you don't care too much for international laws..
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
you think because it's a war, targeting innocent civilians then is allowable? when has that ever been allowed? i'm sure that they outlaw that in the geneva convention.

then again, you support israel and america's illegal raid of osama's compound so you don't care too much for international laws..

Insurgents were targeted... that is why the AP Photographers were with them. They wanted to get those prize winning pictures. Instead they got on Youtube.
 

CUBert

Time Out
Aug 15, 2010
1,259
2
38
Canada
Did they edit out the insurgents in the video,cause I didn't see any..... and what kind of insurgents have children around them out in the open in a warzone......?
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
you think because it's a war, targeting innocent civilians then is allowable? when has that ever been allowed? i'm sure that they outlaw that in the geneva convention.

then again, you support israel and america's illegal raid of osama's compound so you don't care too much for international laws..

Did you watch the video?????
It was a clear case of mistaken identity.
There was no intent to kill innocents.
Therefore there was no crime.

As for bin Laden, WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EXPECT!!!

Good Lord, are you even in touch with reality????

It is war.........you killl the enemy where you find him.....or you lose.
 

CUBert

Time Out
Aug 15, 2010
1,259
2
38
Canada
Did you watch the video?????
It was a clear case of mistaken identity.
There was no intent to kill innocents.
Therefore there was no crime.

As for bin Laden, WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EXPECT!!!

Good Lord, are you even in touch with reality????

It is war.........you killl the enemy where you find him.....or you lose.


Even the Nazi's got a fair trial
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Did they edit out the insurgents in the video,cause I didn't see any..... and what kind of insurgents have children around them out in the open in a warzone......?

You have to go back into the thread. It is all explained and analyzed.

In the meantime I am going out to start celebrating the 4th of July "dood".
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
Even the Nazi's got a fair trial

Yep.

Which I like to call the Great Initial Stupidity.

Winston Churchill was absolutely correct.........he wanted to shoot the top dogs out of hand, no silly trial necessary.......and get on with rebuilding Europe.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
I am at loss to comprehend why those who constantly refer to the Geneva Convention do not understa that the Geneva Convention applies only to those who wear the uniform of a country.

The combatants who do not wear a uniform - and turban and kerchief over the face do NOT qualify - deserve to be shot on sight. The sooner and the faster the better.
 

CUBert

Time Out
Aug 15, 2010
1,259
2
38
Canada
the Geneva Convention applies only to those who wear the uniform of a country.

You wouldn't think it applied to Americans though
Going to war under false pretenses, slaughtering innocents, destroying countries not for any reason other than profit...