Atheists Outscore Believers

JLM

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Walk through a children's cancer ward some time, then try to come up with a satisfactory religious explanation for such suffering of the innocent.

If there is going to be "good" there has to be bad. Actually I'm not sure even that is bad, the survivors likely come out as stronger people, it's called "short term pain for long term gain." Have you ever known anyone who was born with a silver spoon in his/her mouth and was catered to on a regular basis? I have. Almost without exception they are not very nice people- for one thing they are pretty well useless in the practical sense, they largely have no work ethic, they mostly whine all the time and someone else is always to blame for their misfortunes. That's what generally happens when life is too easy. Adversity builds character. Having been born with a brain (most of us that is) we do have a certain amount of control over our destiny.
 

Goober

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What is the quote about the beam in our eye?

Either how can you say to your brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in your eye, when you yourself behold not the beam that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of your own eye, and then shall you see clearly to pull out the mote that is in your brother's eye

We all suffer from this. It is at time difficult to attain. Do I have a mote or beam in my eye - Yes - but i try to make that smaller.

Because even with it removed it will return unless you change accordingly. Yes - No ?
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Spade my Friend then you would ave to look at the countries where these religions dominate or are substantial in numbers. That would give a fair idea of my point. I can only go on what i see and news reports from other countries where religious minorities are actively murdered or persecuted and treated as 2nd or low class citizens of that country all because of their beliefs are in the minority- And those are generally but not always Muslim or Hindu nations.
Oh, kinda like we did to our aboriginal peoples.
 

Dexter Sinister

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If there is going to be "good" there has to be bad. Actually I'm not sure even that is bad, the survivors likely come out as stronger people, it's called "short term pain for long term gain."
Most of us manage to turn out alright without having to suffer childhood cancer, and what about those that don't survive? I've encountered no satisfactory religious explanation for the suffering of the innocents that's consistent with an omnipotent, benevolent deity. Epicurus is credited, probably incorrectly according to Wikipedia, with asking the questions almost 2300 years ago, and there are still no answers: Is god willing to prevent suffering, but unable? Then he's not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he's not benevolent. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god? My nature is such as to require evidence and plausible explanations before I'll accept a claim as provisionally true. I find that if I press theists far enough on this, if they don't shift into crap-throwing-monkey mode first I'll eventually get some version of "it's all part of some greater purpose it's not given to us to understand." That doesn't explain anything, it just claims there isn't a comprehensible explanation. But if you give up the god postulate, there IS an explanation.
 

JLM

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Most of us manage to turn out alright without having to suffer childhood cancer, and what about those that don't survive? I've encountered no satisfactory religious explanation for the suffering of the innocents that's consistent with an omnipotent, benevolent deity. Epicurus is credited, probably incorrectly according to Wikipedia, with asking the questions almost 2300 years ago, and there are still no answers: Is god willing to prevent suffering, but unable? Then he's not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he's not benevolent. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god? My nature is such as to require evidence and plausible explanations before I'll accept a claim as provisionally true. I find that if I press theists far enough on this, if they don't shift into crap-throwing-monkey mode first I'll eventually get some version of "it's all part of some greater purpose it's not given to us to understand." That doesn't explain anything, it just claims there isn't a comprehensible explanation. But if you give up the god postulate, there IS an explanation.

There are no certain answers. We know a lot of stuff happens that can't be explained. Sometimes I wonder if "God" isn't more concerned with trends than with individuals, but that doesn't explain everything either. I think that you like most of us think that dying is bad, especially at a young age.
 

Spade

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Nov 18, 2008
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OK...so this goes to Hitlers religion then? What Religion did he practice? Or is
it about the Nazi's in general? What was their official religion?

Germany was and is predominantly Christian. Anti semitism had strong Christian roots. It is something we don't wish to admit. But, we should be honest...

"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."
- Adolf Hitler
 

Dexter Sinister

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There are no certain answers. We know a lot of stuff happens that can't be explained. Sometimes I wonder if "God" isn't more concerned with trends than with individuals, but that doesn't explain everything either. I think that you like most of us think that dying is bad, especially at a young age.
Not really, from an evolutionary perspective dying is essential, but like Woody Allen I just don't want to be there when it happens to me. :) I'd have said that there are very few certain answers, those that are certain tend to be fairly trivial, and we know a lot of stuff happens that we don't have explanations for, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. A deity concerned with trends rather than individuals is quite a different character from the one promoted by the major monotheisms, and seems to me no more likely to exist than any other one. What's concerning me here is what's variously called the Problem of Evil and Theodicy, the attempt to reconcile the putative nature of the Abrahamic deity with the existence of evil and suffering, which has exercised philosophers and theologians for centuries, without resolution. And as I said, if you abandon the claim that there is such a deity, the problem goes away too.
 

JLM

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Am I guilty of that - No -

In full recognition of our treatment of the natives years ago, it's time to move on. In a lot of cases they were given tracts of prime valley bottom land, some of which they haven't developed. They have also had many privileges the white man wasn't entitled to. Ones living on reserves get a lot of tax breaks. Have they been fairly compensated? I don't know. Is it up to our generation to right the wrongs committed by previous generations? I don't think so. They do have all the entitlements the white man has. I think it's time we were all treated as "Canadians" with equal rights and responsibilities. :smile:
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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Am I guilty of that - No -

:roll: The Canadian Government is responsible.

In full recognition of our treatment of the natives years ago, it's time to move on. In a lot of cases they were given tracts of prime valley bottom land, some of which they haven't developed. They have also had many privileges the white man wasn't entitled to. Ones living on reserves get a lot of tax breaks. Have they been fairly compensated? I don't know. Is it up to our generation to right the wrongs committed by previous generations? I don't think so. They do have all the entitlements the white man has. I think it's time we were all treated as "Canadians" with equal rights and responsibilities. :smile:


:roll: It's unbelievable the amount of ignorance that is still out there.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Am I guilty of that - No -
The piont being, that we constantly point fingers at others for doing what we have done and continue to do as a country. Anybody who thinks the aboriginal people have preferential treatment have no knowledge of what is going on reservations, the aftermath of residential schools is still very much alive and the suffering is still very real. Just because some were able to overcome such torture and deprivation and move on does not mean that all can. Go to a council fire and listen to the torment of the elders, listen to how they were unable or incapable of even hugging their children which has resulted in the highest rates of suicide up until this day. We are not talking just about the past.
 

L Gilbert

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In an interesting paradox a survey in the USA revealed that on a 32 question quiz about religion atheists and agnostics scored the highest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html?_r=2&src=tptw

From my personal experience I don't find this particularly surprising. I have often found believers to be woefully ignorant not only of other religions, but of their own.

The same applies here, Bar. Most people are trained not to think about whatever they believe in. "Just shut up, don't think about it and believe. It's good for you".
Fortunately, there are plenty of folks who don't swallow the rhetoric and dogma and DO think. Even among the believers there are those that think about what they believe.
 

Colpy

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I agree religion isn't that cut and dried, though it often claims to be. For instance: Jesus Christ was the son of god, born of virgin, took all the sins of the world onto himself to free humanity from original sin and provide the path to eternal redemption and salvation, died horribly and painfully in that cause, was buried, rose from the dead after three days, promised he'd return, and ascended bodily into heaven. That's the central message of Christianity, and quite apart from the moral revulsion I feel at the claim that my failings can be redeemed by punishing somebody else for them, it strains credulity to the breaking point. It may be true that "someone" is looking after you, though I strongly doubt it, but it raises an impossibly difficult question no religion has ever satisfactorily answered: why doesn't that "someone" take care of everybody as well as it does you?
My thought has always been that God paints with a broad brush.........

Not a sufficient explanation, I know................some things I certainly don't get, and I couldn't make a face like a theologian............

One argument is that no one is innocent, the sins of the father are visited upon the son........but I don't care for that explanation.

The truely faithful would tell you they are not the potter, merely the potter's clay.

It is an incredibly difficult question, much more troubling than those posed by the followers of the new Messiah........scientific rationalism...... (couldn't resist the jab :))
 

JLM

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My thought has always been that God paints with a broad brush.........

Not a sufficient explanation, I know................some things I certainly don't get, and I couldn't make a face like a theologian............

One argument is that no one is innocent, the sins of the father are visited upon the son........but I don't care for that explanation.

The truely faithful would tell you they are not the potter, merely the potter's clay.

It is an incredibly difficult question, much more troubling than those posed by the followers of the new Messiah........scientific rationalism...... (couldn't resist the jab :))

I've never had any problem with religion, it's just the bastards that peddle their version of it. All that stuff about the Virgin Mary, the three wise men, Christ walking on water (have you ever driven on a paved road on a scorching hot day with high humidity?) Christ turning water into wine, Christ feeding 5,000 people with a couple of loaves of McGavins and 3 cans of sardines. That is not religion- that is someone's account of it (possibly after an extra toddy at the local). :lol:
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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I've never had any problem with religion, it's just the bastards that peddle their version of it. All that stuff about the Virgin Mary, the three wise men, Christ walking on water (have you ever driven on a paved road on a scorching hot day with high humidity?) Christ turning water into wine, Christ feeding 5,000 people with a couple of loaves of McGavins and 3 cans of sardines. That is not religion- that is someone's account of it (possibly after an extra toddy at the local). :lol:

Never mind driving on a scorching hot road with high humidity, how about marching on one. Driving was a luxury. :lol:
 

Dexter Sinister

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It is an incredibly difficult question, much more troubling than those posed by the followers of the new Messiah........scientific rationalism...... (couldn't resist the jab :))
I'd have been disappointed if you'd resisted. :) It's an incredibly difficult question only for those who insist on the existence of a deity with certain characteristics that imply this must be the best of all possible worlds. Give up that idea and the question becomes trivially easy: evil and suffering are direct consequences of undirected natural forces. And it seems worth pointing out that evil exists only because there are sentient beings around capable of suffering.